Rokko
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Posts posted by Rokko
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http://cmmods.greenasjade.net/mods/5451/details
Here is the download link.
One point I forgot to mention:
This this was once intended this as a campaign scenario and a historical one at that, no thought has gone into creating some sort of balancing. Also, there are no AI plans for the axis side. You can play it H2H, but I can't guarantee for an enjoyable experience.
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It is here folks,
After almost a month of sitting on my harddrive I have decided to finally put the finishing touches to this first larger scenario I have actually managed to get to completion (though the Soviet briefing is still a bit half arsed).
Repository upload is taking for ever, but you can already get it at greenasjade.com
It is my first, so I would really appreciate any comments, so give me your thoughts on the map, the forces involved, the briefings, the AI, the difficulty, etc.
Description:
Strategic situation:
By mid July 1944 the Soviet advance had reached the pre-war Polish border. Anything east of the river Nemen, including most of the town of Grodno had fallen to the Soviets and several bridgeheads over the river had been established. The river was the last major natural obstacle before both Warsaw and East Prussia, so the German high command tried everything in their power to hold the west bank of the river.
Operational Situation:
To stop the Soviet onslaught and to destroy the already established bridgeheads, several Panzer division were hurled in to the Grodno area. Among them was the veteran 3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf (Deathshead) railed in from Romania minus its Panther batallion.
A few kilometers east of the Nemen lies the somewhat larger town of Sopockine (Sapotskin in Russian). Totenkopf was tasked to retake it and at the same time recapture all sites on the river which the Soviets used to bring reinforcements and supplies across the river.
Tactical situation:
To support the main attack on Sopockinie, one batallion of Totenkopf's Theodor Eicke regiment (III./SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 5) is ordered to clear the western approaches of the town and to attack the crossing sites. In its way lies the small village of Biale Blota, held by troops of the 220th Rifle Division.
Capturing this village and destroying the Soviet forces that defend it are your objectives in this scenario.
I originally intended to create an entire campaign around the battle for Sopockinie, but realizing how long this would take and that I would probably never finish it I decided to rather release a bunch of thematically related scenarios whenever I felt like finishing one. This is the first and hopefully not the last.
Map and batlle size are quite large. I don't think any scenario that came with the game is as large as this one map-wise, except maybe for some campaign scenarios. There is at least one batallion per side.
Since there are no Waffen-SS forces in CMRT, the Deathshead troops are actually just Wehrmacht. I have, however, mod tagged this scenario for Vein's excellent Totenkopf mod, so get this, if you want to have some greater visual realism. This is optional, so you don't have to use it.
For historical sources I relied mainly on the divisional history of Totenkopf
(Vopersal, W (1991): Soldaten, Kämpfer, Kameraden. Marsch und Kämpfe der SS Totenkopf Division)
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IIRC Chris said in the live stream they are aiming for a February release, so I wouldn't really expect it this weekend
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Also, considering that most CM battles represent tip of the spear-type actions, the amount of artillery present is often understated compared to reality.
That is in a nutshell what I was trying to say
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FWIW, I've found my notes from back in the day
The scenario was CW The Mace, 2SS vs Polish infantry.
Total enemy casualties (KIA/WIA/MIA): 428
Break down by unit:
I,/SS-PzRgt. 2 (a Panther company if I remember correctly): 111 (25.93%)
II./SS-PzRgt. 2 (a bunch of PzIV probably): 35 (8.18%)
Those two were tank units, so casualties probably mainly came from HE and to a lesser degree were
caused by MGs.
Now the infantry:
II./SS-PzGrRgt. 3 "D"
5th company: 72 (16.82%)
6th company: 21 (4.91%)
III./SS-PzGrRgt. 4 "DF" (that one was mechanized infantry I believe and they had Sdkfz 251 support)
9th company: 33 (7.71%)
10th company: 73 (17.06%)
The rest fell victim to off-map assets,
in total 116 or 27.10%
That was a battle against the AI, though. So admittably it is not too conclusive.
Also, looking at these numbers now, to be honest they don't really prove my point all that much
Still, in this particular battle 46.49% of enemy casualties were caused by dismounted or mounted infantry companies. Count in tank MGs and you may get to 50%.
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I remember I once made an evaluation after a scenario I played in CMBN on what percantage of casualties whas caused by what, I'll have to see if I can still find that. But from my perception, especially for scenarios with relatively few tanks infantry does most of the killing in the game. Of course from time to time there is a particular brutal barrage that may skew that.
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Now it gets difficult, I am well aware shrapnells and shell fragements are the main killers in any war since WW1 and maybe already earlier, like what? 70% in Normandy and France, right? Thing is, the game does not represent that to its full effect for gameplay reasons and so infantry in general is better at killing other infantry than in real life (since exclusively hurling off map assets at each other isn't very much fun).
Also I don't think venturing into the topic of the top-100 or so gets us anywhere. The low end of this top-100 list is in the range of 50 kills, and I believe these numbers as much as I believe in the 517 claimed kills by Rudel, be they German or Soviet or Finnish claims. And that is the top-100, when we are talking about a total of about 450.000 snipers!
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Are you talking about TacMaps? If so, I usually take a screenshot from the editor of the 2D map and add it as a new layer to the TacMap .psd file (sort of like an editor overlay). Then I use the premade layers (high ground, low ground, forest, water, road, etc.) to paint acording to he overlay. Elevations are mostly done by eyeball and from memory, not exactly acording to contour lines.
If the map is very long (N-S wise) and not very wide (E-W) than I rotate the overlay to better fit the wide TacMap format.
For OpMaps I sometimes used screenshots from Google Earth as overlay, in CMRT you just have to select the desired area from a large map of the total operational area of the game's scope.
I hope this helps.
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I find them to be pretty self explanatory. Do you have any specific questions? I've used them before and feel like I am adequately qualified to help.
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Well they are clearly not totally over the top one-shot-one-kill guys (which is probably a fiction even for today's snipers), but they have an impact on the way infantry combat turns out that seems overstated to me. Considering it is most likely impossible to get any reliable historical statistics (like exact and reliable number of German troops KIA/WIA by scoped rifles divided by total number of German troops KIA/WIA by small arms fire) on that we'll probably not get a definitive answer to this.
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Well, he posted a Russian link. Neither he nor I do speak Russian I assume since he quoted the very same Google Translation, so what should I have done?
Also, I merely responded to what I percieved as a condescending tone.
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Ok, six months hardly sounds like "non-trained", probably an imprecise or misstranslation by Google Translate. How much is that compared to the average rifleman's basic training? I've found a figure of three months for NCO, so probably less for grunts.
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Well read your own link:
(Bold by me)First of all, trained in 1941; in 1942, 1943 and 1944 was carried out by two stages of preparation. During this time, a total of 428,335 non-trained snipers, which significantly strengthened the combat formations of infantry units.
Those would be the guys I am talking about. Rough estimate of 100 marksmen per Rifle Division in about 700 Rifle Divisions replaced 6 times over during the war would give you that number.
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Rokko - that is too small an action to form an opinion from, in my estimation.
On the wooden bunker (which may be a related matter since you say you didn't notice where the sniper got his 6), a few logs will not stop a 7.62x54 round (or a Mauser 7.92, or a 30-06 etc - any full caliber rifle round). But real log bunkers are not a pile of wood, and the game underrates them if it treats them that way, which it sounds like is happening.
In a real military log bunker, the logs are building material that is used to contain the actual protective walls. Which are not wood, but sandbags or rammed earth. The process is that a trench like hole is first dug to put the men below ground level with a planned firing slit at or not far above ground level (depending mostly on lines of sight, elevation of the terrain and such - they need to be able to see). The exterior of the hole is lined with two layers of logs, one forming an outer wall (which below ground serves to hold back the earth sides to e.g. prevent collapse from artillery fire nearby), and the second, an inner wall, with typically a 2 foot gap between them (sometimes only 18 inches if the logs themselves are stout enough etc). That gap is then filled in with rammed earth or sandbags, all the way around the bunker. A ceiling of logs is next constructed, and then topped off with another 2 feet of earth (typically), which serve as camo as well as protection from overhead hits.
The armies of all the major combatants knew what was required to protect such a shelter from a direct hit by a 105mm HE shell, and that was the standard typically applied. Heavier artillery 150mm and up could KO with a direct hit but only with a direct hit, and the most common weapons - small arms, HMG fire, light and medium mortars, light and medium field artillery - it was meant to be and generally was proof against. Heavy armor piercing fire could penetrate such a bunker, but normally with little in the way of "behind wall effect".
It is not remotely a pile of logs, which would not serve as cover against anything but pistols, SMGs, and light splinters from shell misses...
Well it was one example, and probably not too unrealistic one as well... I guess I have to finish the Soviet campaign and pay some closer attention to the results regarding snipers (since it's a good sample I think).
I mean given the fact that essentially every nation uses the squad based designated marksmen concept (I still think that that's what theses platoon snipers actually were) is an indication for their above average effectiveness,
but still, the margin baffles me.
Regarding the bunkers: Try putting (ingame) an SMG team to the front or the sides of a wooden bunker and give the target command. Many of the bullets will go straight through! Pistol calibre rounds! Something seems off here. On the other hand, in earlier versions of CMBN I remember bunkers sometimes being almost impossible to take out, even with concentrated direct and indirect fire...
Also, given your wast knowledge on the Eastern Front, could you comment on the 428,335 number?
It seems reasonable if you assume about 100 snipers per Rifle Division, but no way that's the number that went through dedicated sniper training, right?
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Sorry Rokko, not nearly enough information in that comment. Are your platoons getting 6-8 kills and the sniper 2 of them? Are your platoons getting 30 kills and the sniper 10 of them?
What losses are they taking themselves? What were their engagement ranges? What enemies did they face?
I find that squad infantry can vary from the lead platoon in the heaviest action inflicting 30 casualties, to every other platoon on the field, only lightly engaged, getting only about 5.
But range makes all the difference, for that result. Ordinary infantry inflicts its heaviest losses at under 100 yards. If a platoon never gets that close, if will be in single digits at the end of the engagement.
Snipers are much longer range weapons. They are effective to 400 yards and quite effective inside about 250. They don't want 100 yard engagement ranges - it gets them spotted and killed.
I would consider it perfectly normal for my scoped rifles and my HMG teams to account for the majority of the casualties I inflict with infantry, if the enemy stayed at 250 yards or farther throughout the engagement. Not even 1/4, more like 3/4 (but counting the MGs). The total would also be low for the whole platoon.
If on the other hand a platoon wades in to 100 yards then assaults through an occupied enemy infantry position, after suppressing them enough to close to point blank, then I expect that platoon to wrack up 20 plus kills and maybe twice that. A lot of them fleeing or cowering enemies already defeated in the knife balance firefight portion, to be sure.
Sorry I can't recall the exact numbers. Last occurence was a small self designed map. Guards rifle platoon vs a German listening post. One Plt HQ and a half-squad in trenches. The other half-squad in a wooden bunker (no MG), so some 13 enemies who were all KIA or WIA. One of my squads didn't get any kills at all, the one that assaulted the trenches had 5 kills or so (and only 3 guys left as the trench wasn't as thorougly suppressed as anticipated and the German Plt Commander picked off most of the squad with his MP40). The sniper team also had 5 or 6 kills and the rest fell to Soviet Plt commander's squad. I just found that weird/unexpected, since I didn't really notice most of the sniper's kills.
BTW the bunker was strangely taken out by small arms fire only, appears wooden logs don't offer much resistance to Soviet SMG and rifle calibre rounds
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I know they had dedicated sniper schools. But they also had, what? Like 700 Rifle divisions? Are you telling me they send every single platoon level scoped rifleman to a special sniper school? That would be probably hundreds of thousands throughout the war. I'm having a hard time believing that.
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I do not doubt the effectiveness of a scoped rifle. I only doubt the margin of how much more effective one scoped rifle is when compared to an entire rifle squad. Totalling up to 1/4 to 1/3 of a platoon's kill (which I have now seen three or four times) just seems too much to me.
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Hm, I think thats mostly a myth like Russian soldiers being always drunk in battle or only having only one rifle for two guys. Probably did happen some place, some time but waaay overstated.
Which doesn't mean its a bad idea for a scenario though
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Of course they were trained. I mean were they trained in any special way? I can't really imagine.
Also I just find it weird for one sniper team to be the most effective unit in your rifle platoon and think a discussion about that is reasonable. I would expect the difference between a platoon level sniper team in WW2 and e.g. a USMC sniper team in CMSF to be substantial, comparing them probably doesn't even make sense really.
Obviously I am talking about anecdotal evidence here, this is not something you could really test for anyways, I am talking about actual battle conditions not firing range.
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Sure, count me in. I have experience in all parts of the scenario design process. Only things I really hate are designing AI plans and coming up with victory point allocations. Painting TacMaps is also a pain, but with such small maps it's going to be fine.
But first I think we need a clear concept. Also I don't have the slightest idea what kind of tasks would realisticly be assigned to a single Sapper platoon. Probably none, because it is just not powerful enough to really achieve something, but for the sake of fun gameplay we can probably discard that. Most things that come to my mind would probably more suitable for scout or razvedchik guys. We could probably design sapper platoon attacks on single fortified strongpoints with a very limited number of defenders. Like attacking an MG bunker with barbed wire and mines in front of it that needs to be flanked without getting pinned down by neighbouring forces. Coming up with 4-6 different enough such scenarios should be doable.
I remember a scenario by JasonC for CMBB where you had to attack a single German HMG in a slit trench with a single conscript platoon. It was just a training scenario but it was a lot of fun to me, because in CMBB it was possible that there were completely false spotting results. Like you'd get a question mark in one place when the enemy pinning you down was actually in a completely different place.
Anyways, thats kind of the scope I'd have in mind.
The mine clearing scenario I would scrap, because until we get mine-clearing T-34s there really is no way to find mines other than stepping on them, that won't be a fun scenario. For a fun trench assault I am thinking of something like a small partion of trench section similar to the one in your Garden of the Iron Cross scenario, not very wide but with some depth, frontal assault with not flanking options.
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Thing about mine clearing and checking for explosives is, CM doesn't really feature these things. It would also be hard to get mission scoring right for these tasks, cause there is no way to award points for it. All you could do is work with Touch objectives maybe.
BTW I just read we are talking about a platoon sized campaign here. In that case the map I've posted would probably have to be downsized a little, or at least reduce the german position to a single squad.
Edit: I just took a closer look at the OOB of a Soviet sapper platoon/company. In terms of a campaign, I think it would be reasonable to include the full company as core unit and use both platoons for different battles though. Also, the regular sapper platoon doesn't really pack a punch. Only 9 SMGs and no MGs whatsoever.
Adding a specialist flamethrower team would be sensible I think (cause flamethrowers are fun), but either way, the enemy force couldn't really be much larger than a single squad, or one HMG and half-squad etc
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I made a small map featuring a German platoon position in a Byelorussian bog. With some small adjustments you could probably accomodate a Sapper company in it and use it for B1 or B2 don't you think? Any suggestions?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nflsm4uej6aac9o/Platoon%20Strongpoint%20vignette.btt?dl=0
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Hi,
in several scenarios now, or rather after several scenarios, I've noticed the Soviet platoon and company level snipers have the highest kill counts in the platoon. You don't really notice them plucking off enemies, but in the end it's like having a 4th squad in every platoon and I wonder, a) has anyone else noticed these snipers to be so effective and
is that reasonable? From my understanding these were not really trained snipers but rather two ordinary riflemen of which one was given a scoped rifles.In the Right Hook at Sopockinie scenario I've designed I made sure to set every sniper unit to Green to somewhat counter that that effect.
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Potatoes. I agree the photo realistic quality and the models really look good.
Those are the same as in CMRT and they actually look quite terrible, because they are just huge sprites. Way too large to look believable when spinning around.
is that reasonable? From my understanding these were not really trained snipers but rather two ordinary riflemen of which one was given a scoped rifles.
CMRT Right Hook at Sopockinie - Comments & Critique
in Combat Mission Red Thunder
Posted
I think he never really uploaded it anywhere unfortunately. He posted about it on the forums, you can find the thread by searching for Totenkopf I believe. I wrote him an PM and he sent me a dropbox download link.