LUCASWILLEN05

I think it would depend on what kind of operation was under way If a limited operation to protect Benghazi and stop Gaddafi's army cold then perhaps a Marine Amphibious Brigade from the Americans working with French or NATO reinforcements coming in later. You might have to start with the US Marines as they are closest to the theater of operations. If a more extensive operation aimed at regime change I am sure the US would be able to deploy heavy armoured units from Europe of CONUS if a couple of divisions were required. Alternatively or in addition one of the Marine Divisions landing near Tripoli should be able to do the job pretty quickly. The heavy armour is just to make things quicker or if things go wrong. Additional air support can be flown from Spain, France and Italy. Or you could deplloy a couple more carriers.

Also more possibilities covering the early battles of the campaign where the Syrian air force might play a small role. Of course, one interesting possibility might be to say that the Syrian air force was originally thought to be destroyed early in the campaign but actually fooled NATO intelligence analysts because they used dummy aircraft combined with a few real ones while most of the real planes hid in hardened bunkers. As NATO forces begin to close in on Damascus and the above tank battles begin the Syrians pull of an "Air Tet" which should give NATO commanders some worrying moments... The US Marines, possibly supported by Canadian and German units will also need to mop up those Syrian units around Latakia who might be joined by some scattered armored units who have fallen backfrom the area around Aleppo and Hama Currently working on a battle for Latakia International but very early days on this. Mainly using Syrian Reservists with some static tank platoons. These may be joined by some Syrian regular army tank units, Also using the AAA capability made available in the NATO module.. The Allied forces will come from the US Marines. The attack will take place at night as I think this is the option US commanders would prefer although I could do a daylight scenario at some point. Luke

Looking at the campaign map provided with the game I was thinking about how NATO concludes the campaignafter the initial border battles. I see the possibility of a double envelopment of Damascus aimed at encircling the city prior to the final assault. The Southern prong would be formed of US and UK heavy armoured divisions attacking into the Dar'a area and swinging north across some of the old battlefields of the Yom Kippur war, some of which could well be fought over again. Given that there are several Syrian tank and mechanized divisions in this area there would almost certainly be a few days of big tank battles in this sector after which surviving Syrian units would be falling back either into Lebanon or towards Damascus. Much the same situation to the North and West of Damascus with US HEavy Divisions being joined by US Marines and NATO forces (mostly German and Canadian with another major tank battle somewhere just north of the city. There would probably be a major action around Damascus International Airport and the other major airfields around the city. The final assault on Damascus could take several forms. Either a direct assault on the city, particularly if the Syrian Army was comprehensively beaten and largely destroyed in the above tank battles. If not then there would have to be a choice between storming the city of laying siege to it Syrian forces falling back into Lebanon could well be pursued into Lebanon, almost certainly leading to a clash with Hezbollah. I think there are plenty of possible scenario options here. Luke

Sadly I suspect the question will end up being moot because our leaders are too gutless to take any robust action in time for it to matter.What we will end up is Gadaffi still in power and very angry with the West so we will be back in the position we were in during the 1980s and 1980s. He will resume work on his WMD program and will provide state support to terrorist groups like Al Qaeda. Another source of tension and stability in the Middle East and North Africa. Just what we need.

Not to mention what our political leaders tell us. Live by spin, die by spin But this is getting too far away from the subject and into potentially contentious waters so probably best to get back to discussing the military matters at this point. Luke

Like that. Yes. Someone please inform "Scoop" that this is a BMP1 he is looking at and that it is an IFV, not a tank Luke

Yeah, I have heard them call an IFV a tank. Anyone who knows anything at all about these things knows that a BMP, despite the fact that it does have a small gun is an IFV, not a tank. For most journalists anything that has tracks and a gun of any sort is a "tank" Perhaps a copy of Janes should be a standard issue for all journalists reporting from a war zone so they can learn to tell the difference

The other week I had a T-62 immobilize an M1A2 at a range of about 5 meters. The T-62 failed to survive. What happened was the T-62 had fired on my tanks and disappeared behind a crest. Igot too aggressive and decided to go in for the kill rather than waiting until it re-appeared. Unfortunately the T-62 happened to be hiding in a reverse slope position at exactly the point my M1A2 came over the crest line. About 5 meters behind the crest line. With cunning tactics or a stupid tactical decision like the above a kill or immobilize result is possible.

As a general point I like to give my infantry squads at least one of the Javelins and a couple of LAWS before they dismount from the vehicle particularly if I know I am going to be facing enemy armour. These weapons can also be of some use against infantry in buildings or bunkers. I heard a news report the other day about a Libyan government soldier who ended up in hospital with an anti tank missile in his leg so they can do some damage in the real world at least. Luke

I did see film of a rebel rocket launcher on the news this evening and they might have some captured tanks although I have seen no news footage of these. Plenty of Toyota pickup types though. Luke

And that is the reason I would suggest something like this for the rebels, certainly in the opening days/first couple of weeks Experience: Conscript Motivation: Extreme, possibly even Fanatic in a few cases One thing I noticed in news reports of the early days of this conflict was how much the rebels seem to be bunching up when under fire. A good sign of inexperience. For the Libyan army lower end units might be rated Experience: Green or Regular. Maybe some as conscript Motivation: Low or Poor. The better units could be Experience: Regular Motivation:Norrmal or Low Leadership should probably be poor, mostly 0 or negative rating for both sides. Presidential Guard style units on the government side should probably be given a slightly better rating than the best regular army units although these are probably being held back in Tripoli. Luke

That would be the Libyan scam email as opposed to the Nigerian variety :-) Good spoof. You have to have a small amount of Libyan air power (a couple of aircraft and perhaps a flight of helicopter gunships) bit probably use very low quality crews. I am not sure the problem is so much a lack of aggressiveness, perhaps more a lack of competence on both sides and low morale with the government forces. I think the rebels seem to be losing some of their initial elan at the moment but still give them a lower level of training than the government forces but significantly higher morale. That is my take on the current situation anyway. Luke

I agree. Special Forces would be much more likely to be used well behind the FEBA where our usual CMSF battles occur. Maybe an occasional scenario in which they are used would be ok but the mission would have to be a suitable small scale skirmish attacking a suitable objective and it would have to include at least a couple of squads to make it a viable game and even then they would need to be cooperating with local forces to make it really enjoyable. Or something based around a modern version of the LRDG in WW2. For SF I would have all morale, training and leadership ratings set to the highest ratings possible. Within the CMSF setting I think we have better options available for scenarios as previously discussed. For example Libyan rebels vs government forces, a Western intervention force (eg US Marines) etc. Perhaps the latter could be a relatively light force like US Airborne types or an MEU having to hold back a Libyan armoured counter attack early on in a Panama style operation. A game set during a final attack on Tripoli fighting against a well prepared Libyan defence. You could even combine the action with a SF attempt to kill/capture key leadership figures (even Gaddaffi himself)

Alan. Yes I agree it seems unlikely that Western forces would go in on the ground although not impossible. I think we can all agree that something extreme like use of WMD against civillians and or a magor threat to cut off oil supplies. Speaking of which there may be trouble developing in Saudi Arabia but that is a matter for future discussion if or when it happens. The rebels versus Gaddaffi loyalist scenarios would be a good one. Both sides should probably have low levels of training. Gaddaffi regular army unitsshould also have a low level of training, poor leadership and poor morale. With the use of the NATO module the Libyans can use their airpower. The so far hypothetical Western intervention scenario would still be an interesting one though particularly with light forces.

Read about that one. Apparently they are being well treated so it is very unlikely this would lead to any sort of Western intervention. Without getting into the politics of the situation too much I don't see much enthusiasm on the part of NATO or the US to get involved at this stage. For that Gadaffi and the forces he controls would have to do something really extreme, probably involving the use of chemical weapons or a really big massacre of civilians before there would even be consideration of intervention on the ground. However, if there were to be a real invasion I see a Panama style operation aimed at taking Tripoli and capturing/killing Gaddafi and his associates as being the most likely option. Unlike Noriega in 1989 this would be harder and it night look more like Baghdad 2003 with an initial airborne.amphibious assualt to gain a foothold in the general area. Possibly a regular army division or two would be inserted later if resistance in the capital was harder than anticipated. However, looking at the performance of the Libyan army so far the Marines and airborne types would probably prove more than enough to do the job. If the Russians did deliver the T90s and they are currently operational that would make for a harder fight particularly iff they are being held in reserve around Tripoli which would make military sense,

Syrians get their airforce the ZSU-23-4 (only ground fire capability) and a heavy technical group with the ZU-23-2. There is no SAM or AA capability though given that our largest possible battlefield is 4000m x 4000m it would probably not make much sense to include anti air capabilities as most jets would be engaged long before. Having said that a case could be made that there might be a possibility to target helicopters with anti aircraft weapons assuming it is possible with the software. Luke

I read something about a Russian deal with the Libyans a year or so ago to supply T-90s. Does anyone know whether the deal was actually finalised and, if so, whether the Libyans actually have them in service yet? If so then any US intervention scenario becomes much more interesting. Luke

I had a situation in the SNAFU scenario in which an M1A2 came over a ridge to find a T-62 waiting about 5 meters away. In the ensuing exchange of fire the T-62 was destroyed and tthe M1A2 imobilized/ Shades of the Witmann incident at Prokhorovka. Luke

That is what I thought. Would it be possible to open these options up in a future patch assuming of course that they do actually work.

Selecting the building s a point target also seems more effective. Luke

On the weather in Syria a quick google search reveals the nature of the climate of the country and snow is actually possible in the winter months in Damascus and of course the mountainous areas. Perhaps a more Mediterranean climate in the more coastal regionsaal though I will grant you the desert areas in the east are obviously mich hotter. Even then you do get very occasional rain in the desert as during Operation Desert Storm. Noting the grayed out sections for month, weather and ground conditions under the Scenario Editor Data tab there seems to be an implication that it would be possible to activate those options. If it is possible to activate those options it would allow the use of other local weather conditions in different seasonsand give more options for scenarios. Luke

As Sergei saysbeing in command control distance can help, particularly if the officer concerned has a good leadership ratinProbably is a good idea to withdraw the unit to a safe location outside LOS fron the enemy if they are in condition to recieve orders. This is why it is a good idea to pull a fragile unit backfor a break before they get too badly beaten up. This can be easier said than done as there are obviously situations where fire shock is an issue and the unit panics very quickly. Luke

Would it be possible to ope up the year, month and weather settings, perhaps in the next patch. This would allow for the war to take place in a more "contempory" setting and have a post invasion counter insurgency. Perhaps a time frome of 2008-2015 might be sensible. HAving the fully available weather settings allowing for rain, mist and fog would allow for some interesting variance to scenarions dependent on seasonal conditions. Luke

Ideally it would be great to have the capability to shoot down aircraft witihn the game but as someone else has said this would require considerable additional work and resources. Also the maximum size battlefield we have is 4000m by 4000m and most SAM or AA weapons today have a range considerably longer than that so there is a strong case for abstracting the air defence situation. Luke

Which is another good reason for doing more Middle East TOEs. The Jordanians have a Challengeer variant but with a completely new turret. And we can't not have the IDF Given the way the political situation is changing anything could happen and there could well be potential for future wars in the region other than our Syrian invasion scenario. There really should be more mods Interstingly there was a border war between Egypt and Libya during the late 1970s (I think 1977) so there is a previous history of conflict. The Egyptians have a couple of military options. They could come in as liberators getting rid of Gadaffi and handing things back to a new pro Egyptian government in Tripoli within a few months. Alternatively they could just annex some of the border areas including some of the Libyan oilfields and leaving any Libyan civil war to sort itself out. Then use the oil as a bargaining tool with the West. For the Egyptians I think the second option would be best as much of this is largely going to be empty desert except for the oil installations. Going to Tripoli could be a problem since the M1A1 is a bit of a gas guzzler and we are talking several hundred miles from the Egyptian border. During WW2 both the 8th Army and the Afrika Corps both had supply problems bringing their offensives to a halt due to over extended supply lines and the same could be true for a modern Egyptian invasion of Libya. On the other hand, if NATO were to give an Egyptian invasion logistical support on the understanding that the Egyptians are going to take option 1 then it could be achievable. Luke