Wiggum
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Posts posted by Wiggum
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...so when comes 1.06 ?
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Are there Screenshots where we can see the difference between 1.05 LOS and 1.06 ELOS ?
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Since it will be in the next 1.06 patch, you will have to buy the original CM:SF game to get ELOS.Originally posted by Rollstoy:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wiggum:
What will i have to buy to get ELOS ?
In case you already bought CM:SF, you just have to wait until the 1.06 patch is released.
Best regards,
Thomm </font>
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What will i have to buy to get ELOS ?
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@ Battlefront
...sounds good but...Something like this will get into the game sooner rather than later. There are a bunch of different circumstances where the TacAI is put in charge of figuring out what to do and it's impossible for it to do right all the time in all circumstances. Therefore, we recognized a while ago that there must be some way to ensure that some things happen. We have an idea of how to make this work without explicit commands (which would be cumbersome), but it's something that might have to wait for WW2 before it happens. I can say for sure that it is on The List so it won't be forgotten
That means we never will see something in CMSF without buy the WW2 Addon ?
[ January 16, 2008, 06:04 AM: Message edited by: Wiggum ]
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I think it is fairly close, but I don't think tweaks one way or the other are outside reality. The new tweaks are coming in v1.06.Originally posted by Battlefront.com:Wiggum,
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />do you think that CMSF simulate the cover that a building give correct at the moment ?
There is no one single magic answer to these various things. Overall the modeling in v1.05 is pretty close to reality. If you do stupid things you will get punished very, very badly. If you do smart things you will be rewarded. There are plenty of guys who can play a dense urban battle and come away with probably fewer casualties in real life. Those are the guys who know how to pace themselves and use good tactics. The others are likely to get slaughtered.Im sure (and im not alone) that the cover that houses, trenches woods ect. give in CMSF are not correct. Now, is that a small arms accuracy problem ? Or a Cover simulation Problem ? Or a lethality problem ?With the changes in v1.06, and probably more tweaks in future releases, we don't expect people to see a huge difference. If you got slaughtered when playing v1.05, you'll probably get slaughtered in v1.06
Realism is not a known quantity. There are too many variables in the real world. Many CM:SF players, who have been in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, have said they don't see major problems with the way the game is right now. I'm not saying it means it's perfect, but it clearly shows that it is closer to reality than some people (perhaps you) think it is....something is wrong at the moment, and i hope you will find out what and change it to make CMSF more realistic.
Well, to answer your first question... yes, it is quite probable that they are "stupid". Good tactics and training takes a lot of time and effort. This is not something most Syrian units have the benefit of. If you want to have chaotic units, use the Unconventionals. They fight without rules and suffer the consequences of it.Why (are they totally stupid ? ) should a Syrian Mitia Squad not be able to split a AT Team and get this on the roofe to fire at a Enemy Tank ?
But idiots usually don't do smart thingsAt the moment you must move your hole squad into the danger zone...than you take 10 dead when the tank fire back.It is absolutly unrealistic than lower quality sqauds cannot split...every idiots con do this...
The military training states that the AT element is not a separate "maneuver element". Therefore the more we allow it to be used independently, the less realistic the game becomes. It is as simple as that. You don't have to agree with us, but unless your argument is based on something other than your own personal opinion... I suggest that our position is the stronger one.
Remember that there is a reason that the Syrians (and Soviet structures) have separate AT units. Units that are already on their own. Obviously they do recognize that there is a need for separate AT elements. But the RPG that is with the Squad is NOT supposed to be that element. It is there to support the Squad, not to run around on its own. That's a fact of Soviet doctrine which the Syrians use. It doesn't matter if the reasons for this make sense to you or not. To many, Soviet doctrine has never made sense
Steve </font>
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Not ignoring it, simply don't have anything new to addOriginally posted by Battlefront.com:Wiggum,
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So, what does Battlefront say to the discussion here ?
I hope they dont ignore it...
Buildings in that part of the world aren't all that tough. Comparing the average poorly constructed Middle Eastern home to one in Germany is a very bad idea. Germany has something called "building codes" while in the Middle East (and just about everywhere else but the "developed" nations) they just have "buildings"
Squads that in real life can are able to in CM:SF. Those that are doctrinally tied together as a single entity do not have that ability. We are not making any changes to that.And what about Squad splitting ?I think every Squad should have the ability to split into a "Anti Tank" one and a "Attack" one.
Steve </font>
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Sounds good...any pics from that ?Originally posted by the Fighting Seabee:Flares would be a pretty cool effect. We used them quite a bit when I was in the service.
Somewhat off topic, but I HIGHLY recommend the new tracersexplosions mod at cmmods. It makes the tracers a much more realistic reddish color and also adds color to the explosions. Very nice!
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Thats the point.Originally posted by DaveDash:E.G. Reduce the lethality and accuracy of small calibre rifles at longer engagement ranges of 250m+ and increase arbitary cover, especially inside buildings taking fire from outside of buildings.
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I really would like to read something from Battlefront to that...
Will they fix:
- Small Arms Accuracy
- Lethality of small arms
- Cover that the terrain give.
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I agree totally.Originally posted by Paper Tiger:"I find the spotting problems extreme in the other direction. In one scenario with "scarce" civilian density, my bmp-2's promptly identified and dispatched an entire forest hilltop battalion defense from the setup zones. Spots were acquired in seconds flat at ranges in excess of 300 and 400m on men laying prone if foxholes under trees... just because they were in LOS."
I had to laugh when I read this. That sums it up nicely. I have see this instantaneous spotting so many times. It seems that you have to 'Hide' your forces to prevent them from being spotted immediately. It's almost as if when they're not hiding, they're waving and shouting "coo-eey".
Battlefront should change this !
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So, what does Battlefront say to the discussion here ?
I hope they dont ignore it...
And what about Squad splitting ?
I think every Squad should have the ability to split into a "Anti Tank" one and a "Attack" one.
[ January 09, 2008, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Wiggum ]
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...That is your Problem.Originally posted by Secondbrooks:i must admit i'm just gamer who usually tries to reach objectives and not caring so much about health of my pixel-me
I think most people will try to get as few looses as possible.
And yes, i will hold back on the way to an objective if the looses i will take will be to high.
Better a draw with few dead as a win with 100 dead.
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It is very important to know from how far they shoot. 25m and 250m are a "HUGE" difference.Originally posted by Secondbrooks:flamingknives: Funny.
Here's something our army shows about penetration. This is last part of video called "assaultrifle in combat" (traning video):
In order of fresh wood, brick, i quess next one is cinder block (i'm not sure about english name), steel and sandbag. Figures are in centimeter. Bullet is standart ball JVA 0316. Which shouldn't be much different from original soviet 7.62x39. Yugoslavian round is almost 1:1 with JVA 0316 they used in this video.
Brick gets totally shattered from one bullet (well they are not "glued" together). 7.62 NATO as well as 7.62x39 could easily penetrate brick in 45 degree angle in that earlier video i linked (which 5.56 couldn't do)... I don't understand what these globalsecurity figures are. Overall i don't think i understand half of penetration figures presented in english language.
EDIT: Yes. In that globalsecurity link there's two bricks, but still damanding so many shots to penetrate brick seems quite absurd if single bullet can penetrate brick in 45 degree angle. In earlier link provided by me, they didn't mention thickness of it but i would quess that it's standart thickness about 15cm and 6 inches... Not sure thou.
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Battlefront dosent have to go over the top (6h Battles)...
But some changes are inescapable at the moment, or CMSF will be another "just fun" wargame.
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I really want to shot M-14, the weapon looks good.
Shooting with the "good old" G3 is also more fun than shot G36 (but the G36 is a great rifle i think !)
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I think Battlefront should read that book to and change something ! </font>Originally posted by stikkypixie:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wiggum:
@ DaveDash
Great work !
With one batch you approved what i think about the small arms moddeling and cover moddeling in CMSF !
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Firefights were not fast, lethal, and over in seconds like in CM:SF. They were slow and deliberate. Many insurgents whacked up on drugs just wouldn't die. Platoon level fights lasted for hours due to the amount of cover involved.
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http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=003595Originally posted by DaveDash:Im back from holiday.
Over the holidays I read Staff Sergeant David Bellavia's "House to House". For those unfamiliar with the author, SSG Bellavia was awarded the Silver Star and Bronze Star (and nominated for the DSC and the MoH) for his actions in Fallujah.
In this book he writes accounts of his units actions in Fallujah an other areas in Iraq.
After reading this book, I am totally convinced that my earlier mantra about Stykers, Bradleys, etc being too weak, and firefights being far too deadly are true.
In the initial assault in Fallujah, Bradleys ran over numerous IEDS and not only survived, continued to manouver and fight. Some explosions were so powerful they put the Bradleys in mid air and they still managed to fight with minimal combat damage.
Bradleys and M1A2's took a stupid amount of RPG-7 hits, and while the outside gear got burnt and beaten up, they continued to fight effectively with no crew or squad casualties.
Weapon malfunctions were probably the biggest problem they faced.
Firefights were not fast, lethal, and over in seconds like in CM:SF. They were slow and deliberate. Many insurgents whacked up on drugs just wouldn't die. Platoon level fights lasted for hours due to the amount of cover involved.
Im CM:SF one RPG will eliminate half your squad who has cover in a building, these army guys not only survived numerous RPG's exploding on their covered positions, but IED explosions as well that levelled entire city blocks.
In one firefight they had NO COVER and were hiding behind rocks on top of a building, the firefight lasted for hours. In CMSF they would have been wiped out in seconds. The guys they were fighting wernt slouches either, many of them were highly trained veterins from Chechnya etc. They must have been suffering from the LOS bug.
The reverse is also true. Despite advanced optics, M4's resulted in minimal kills and were pretty ineffective against enemies in covered positions. Most of the infantry level damage was caused by M246 and M240's against exposed insurgent positions.
However it still took about 200 M246 rounds to kill an insurgent STANDING IN THE OPEN wearing U.S. Kevlar body armour at relatively short range.
The real damage was caused by AT4s, Javelines, Tows, 120mm tank main gun rounds, airstrikes, and Bradley HE, which I feel are all quite well modelled in the game at present.
Now to make cm:sf more in line with reality would really throw the balance out of whack, especially with timelimits and the strength of U.S. IFV's and Stykers. But in any case I still think some 'tweaking' needs to be done in 1.06.
Funnily enough however, the gaggle of taffic jams you get into moving your IFVs, Tanks, and APCs through an urban enviroment isn't entirely unrealistic. The marine assault was delayed by hours into Fallujah as their tracks got into huge taffic jams trying to enter the city.
In one firefight, the supporting Bradleys and Tank couldnt effectively engage the enemy because they were stuck in a traffic jam and couldnt manouver around each other while buttoned. The army squad was in danger of being surpressed and eliminated, and one guy named Fitts had to hang off a building, completely exposed to enemy fire, and talk the commanders over the radio how to get out of their traffic jam and support his squad.
If not anything, read the book, it's a real insight to modern MOUT warfare. Many tactics we use in the game they used in Fallujah, such as covering fires on any building that looked dangerous. They were also pretty lucky. Many times when they were caught in danger zones that would have resulted in them being cut to bits, there was no enemy to actually respond.
I wanted to put that here because i think it is very important !
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@ DaveDash
Great work !
With one batch you approved what i think about the small arms moddeling and cover moddeling in CMSF !
I think Battlefront should read that book to and change something !Firefights were not fast, lethal, and over in seconds like in CM:SF. They were slow and deliberate. Many insurgents whacked up on drugs just wouldn't die. Platoon level fights lasted for hours due to the amount of cover involved. -
Mhh, thats all relative...Originally posted by Hev:If you actualy watch the action you'll notice your guys generely only get hit when on "spotting" behaviour. This implys that they are sticking thier head up to look around and they get hit!
In most cases when i squad gets pinned they stop taking cassualties for a time while they stay down.
It also seems to me that degridation of cover might also be modled 'cos after a time even pinned squads will take casualties.
For me this is doing a reasonable job of simulating the "cutting edge" of combat, and compared to any other wargame/simulation out there im happy with how the firefights progress.
I think a other aspect is that if you dont "see" your enemy inside a stone walled house your fire is very inaccurate. Your shots can keep the enemy away from the windows but your chance to hit him is !very! low with small arms fire. And i dont think Soldiers will wasting so many bullets to perforate a stone walled house. they will use rocket lunchers or heavy weapons (ICV, Tanks ect.). And therefore i think the lethality of small arms is to high against enemys in a house and the cover a human find in the urban terrain isent represent right in CMSF.
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Very interesting.Originally posted by flamingknives:FM.3-06.11, chapter 7, may be of interest here:
7.3
c. Protection. Barriers that offer protection against 5.56-mm rounds are also effective against 7.62-mm rounds with some exceptions. The 7.62-mm round can penetrate a windowpane at a 45-degree obliquity, a hollow cinder block, or both sides of a car body. It can also easily penetrate wooden frame buildings.
But my english is to bad to understand what that means for the protection that a Standard Iraq,Syrian Wall give...can someone say that in simple englisch ?
Look at the last part of the text:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m16.htm
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I agree with you.Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:The houses in Germany are like little fortifications, especially compared to anything in the US. Just seems like US contruction is geared toward fast and cheap, while Germans build to last and for quality. I was very impressed while I was in Germany
I can imagine the houses in Syria, mostly build from stones, bricks and dirt, provide very good cover
IMO the cover needs to be increased in houses and trenches, atleast against small arms.
I have watched many War Videos from Iraq and Afghanistan. And in nearly every Video the Guys get into a covered position behind stone walls, in houses and on roof.
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7.62 mm should go thru walls ?Originally posted by Secondbrooks:I agree with civdiv too. Building's wall ain't enough to cover from bullets. Concrete will protect one from 5.56 round (it will drill thru wall eventually but this needs something like SAW i quess), i'm not sure about 5.45mm, but allkinds 7.62 mm rounds punches thru, also penetrating innerwalls, not made of concrete. 20-30 cm of concrete is needed to give protection. Which i think is very rare outside industrial complexes and big hotels. In Syria CMSF manual said that buildings very from mud shacks (or something) to modern strudy hotels.
Richoets and bullets changing their flightpath are problem as well as fragments knocked by projectile from walls.
To get enough cover one needs sandbags or some other additional protection (basically to every direction because of richoets, grumbilng roof etc)... Which i quess, aren't modelled in CMSF
EDit: Not sure about tendensy how this happens in CMSF... I would quess, that most problem is that troops won't pull back if walls are starting to shatter from intense enemy fire, men are not enough protected and possibly few guys gets hit, this is what causes lots of casualities. They just stick there, keeping their small little hand on their helmets and keeps crying for 'mom'. They can be kept under suppression and shooters can slowly chew them to death.
I dont know what kind of wall you are talking...
In Germany we have 30cm Massive Walls at our houses.
And if there are 2 walls between you and the bullets, if you hide in the middle of a house ?
I played some Scenarios today and now my opinion is clear. MOUT dont work right !
I think turning down the lethality and add more cover to all kinds of terrain will give the game a more realistic urban warfare gameplay.
Tracers
in Combat Mission Shock Force 1
Posted
You know in a few seconds where the bullets come from... make a area target and lets go...
I mean, if you come under fire, dont know where it comes from...go into cover and watch the situation...maybe spot the shooter and then get him. Thats the way i would like to play CMSF.