BillyBob

No, for sure, but you might get it patched to the satisfaction of the majority of posters on this forum and many others who feel the exact same way as me.

BillyBob, I think you do not have the scouting capabilities of your units and of the enemy units in your calculation. There can be the situation where your units (with little scouting skills) can not see the enemy. But the enemy (with better scouting skills) can see you already. Nevertheless there are some major issues with LOS/LOF that have to get fixed. I think the approach of the devs can maybe help us understand better how the system work. Will that be enough??? I don't think the better visualisation of LOS/LOF is the big issue here. Hopefully I will be corrected by the devs and the visualisation solves some problems. As long as LOS/LOF, (doubtful?) armour penetration and pathfinding and waypoints will get fixed, I still think ToW has the potential to be a great wargame...... Still chewing, digesting and understanding. Uwe </font>

"Go see a vet" and "You are a nutbar" Same ballpark, no? Neither particularly heinous examples of abuse, but a new customer (somebody who has given you his money for your game) gets banned for his, while an older resident (who has NOT given you his money for this game) gets nada? Talk to me about "double standards" mate.

I'll be happy if I can sneak and hide stuff like I'm able to in CM. Anything less than that very basic and essential realistic ability and ToW will remain an arcade turd. Which would be a shame, because anything that looks as fantastic as ToW deserves the same level of quality under the hood.

You'll also be getting banned I suppose?

So we'll be waiting to hear that Andreas has also been banned? Hmm? Oh no, I forgot, he's one of the resident shills, with special privilages.

Very well said mate.

You are still not getting it, but that is not really surprising, since you seem to have mental issues. You can criticise the game all you want, and I would not comment (and in fact haven't, anywhere). It's when you indulge in paranoid theories about BFC and beta testers manipulating the board that I start to care, and I'll comment. I doubt you'll get it this time round, but it is always worth trying. All the best Andreas </font>

Put them behind lots of trees to, and bushes </font>

Good to hear it. And when (if) the serious issues are fixed you'll hear me shouting the good just as loudly as I've been shouting the bad.

There's nothing wrong with my tactics. They work perfectly in CM, as they should, because that game (simulation) is highly realistic. The same tactics don't work in ToW because a) there's no cover & concealment, due to transparent trees and bushes etc, and because the hit ability and armor & cannon calculations are bent (either due to deliberate bias by the devs, or because the computer AI blatantly 'cheats'. Once I've played the allies a few times I'll be more sure exactly which of those it is). I played the Villers Bocage battle two times, as a German. On the second go my three Tigers took out all the Cromwells. Two of my Tigers were then taken out by the armoured cars. Yeah. The third one was then taken under fire by the 85mm AT gun, but I was unable to return fire because of "no clear line of sight". I moved it forward in stages, maintaining a good angle, trying to get a clear shot (at the gun that had no problem getting a clear shot at me) until the gun finally took me out with an angled shot through the glacis. And that's been my predominant experience with the Tiger (and Panther)...at ranges that favour it's optics and cannon it gets taken under fire but is unable to return fire due to "no clear line of sight". Maybe we shouldn't call the trees and bushes "invisible" or "transparent", maybe we should call them "one-way mirrors". When the same tactics that work in CM also work in ToW, and when the "one-way mirror" trees and bushes are fixed, I'll call ToW a viable game. Until then it'll remain an arcade turd.

The only thing a LOS tool will do is confirm that trees and bushes etc are effectively transparent. I don't need it, all I have to do is go into 1st-person view to see what my units cannot see (and therefore cannot be seen by). But I'm sure it'll be a useful placebo for some ("Oh, the LOS thingy says that enemy tank can see me from behind multiple trees and bushes, so that's ok then. I'll wait until there's a mountain handy before I try an ambush again").

Thankyou for reminding me (and everyone else). You forgot the invisible bushes.

"Get the hang" of what exactly? Fighting on a map where all the trees and bushes etc are effectively invisible? Then having to babysit all your tanks because the moron gunners don't know which type of ammo to use against various target types? "No Hans, we don't use HE against tanks, we use that hard one over there, it's called AP". It's called 'Clickfest-Ultra'. Get "The hang" of that and your mouse-wrist will sieze up solid.

Sure. But if we both getting screwed on an eaqual basis it brings some parity no matter how warped. </font>

Er...so why are T34s (and Shermans: see thread, 'Shermans, panthers & Tigers) getting the best of Tigers and Panthers on an alarmingly regular basis? You can post all the technical flummery in the world, but the in-game experience vis-a-vis real-world accounts from the people who were there speak for themselves: "something stinks". And that's on top of the invisible trees and bushes etc.

But stop complaining, yeah? The game's fun! And nobody said it was going to be another CM. And it's using some kind of sooper-dooper ray-tracing algorithm. And you haven't given it enough time. God, all these people whining, expecting the Tiger to have superior armor, and an 88mm HV cannon capable of knocking-out Sherman tin boxes. Oh, I know, your Tiger and Panther were probably knocked out from the rear by tanks you hadn't noticed (coz there's nothing wrong with this game!). Sorry, I was just trying to save the shills and fan-boys some time.

The only suprise I want is the computer AI not being able to see anything that I myself cannot see from 1st-person view. "Ray tracing algorithm" my arse. Sounds more like a sci-fi 'make everything invisible' ray-gun.

I agree, personally I don't give a rat's ass if I see a LOS line. Just give me a realistic code where I don't get picked off through ten tree tops, two building walls and one, three foot high grassy field while my men are crawling, and I'll be fine. </font>

Ditto for all the soviet armor. Gotta love those objective russian devs.

Straight-A!

There's criticism, and then there's your rabid fan-boy definition of it.

"No problem with LOS". Coo. How about this...if I go into 1st-person view, and I'm unable to see a given enemy unit, then that enemy unit is unable to see me? Or is that too realistic for this 'RTS-Lite'?

How about we assume, quite reasonably, that hiding a tank behind bushes (in ambush) pre-supposes that the crew have gone to the trouble of camoflaging it so that it couldn't be seen? Not happening, is it. AI can spot anything, from one side of the map to the other. Relentlessly. Then kill it. Might as well be playing on a snooker-table for all the good the terrain features are doing as regards cover & concealment. Will they fix this game-wrecking flaw? Will they hell.

Sure, let's ban anyone who posts criticisms of the game (using as an excuse their style rather than the fact they've critized). Then there'll be nothing left but praise, ensuring that potential purchasers looking for information on the official forums by which to make an informed choice will be completely gulled. Some of you people are enough to make Benjamin Franklin spew in his grave.