Vinnart
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Posts posted by Vinnart
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Yes shape/symbols too. In this case the shapes are the unique letters, reinforced by color.
At any rate even if the letters representing the experience level were just all white it still gets the info to the player to free up GUI space for the floor/passenger text that needs a good place to fit it in.
A flyover text could say "Crack" for the F who is too lazy to read manual, to figure what the letters stand for. To simplify the color scheme that ties into what the CM player already associates RED=BAD, GREEN=GOOD another alternative could be: Conscript, and Green could be grouped red because they both are in the “I suck category”. Regular, and Veteran white are your average Joes, and Elite-Crack are in the “Top Troops” category as green letters. White is ok letters alone, but colors are better and read by the mind without concentrating. When the player looks at the floor/passenger text something colored right next to it will register that it is there whether you want to see it or not. What is important is red or green, otherwise all are mid grade. I would appreciate a consideration for addition in any way it were done.
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It's close guys, just hang in there. Birds on the way!
Honesly, I think Michealangelo said it best when the pope kept busting his balls while he was painting the sisteen chapel. Every time the pope asked when it would be finished, he answered "When it's done". I would rather wait for any ironing out that needs to be done to get the most polished product.
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I think complaints are unreasonable unless one presents a valid argument as constructive feedback in critiquing something that could be improved. There will always be personal preference to certain things. What is better chocolate, or vanilla? There is no right answer.
All in all i think people should be happy overall with CMBN especially if they have played CMSF. There are still tweaking, and feature to add, and things to get used to if one is not familiar with Cmx2, but it is still the best thing out there in this genre bar none.
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Good idea. Whenever possible eliminate text for colors - humans process that much faster.
Maybe it's different for programmers tho'...
Yes, both colors and symbols are processed by the mind quicker than words. This is because one subconsciously goes through the vocalization of words when reading as a process of learning how to read as a child. Words can always be part of a flyover tip though in leaning what things are and serve too reinforce association.
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Tool tips are not gamey in all that they do is give information that is already there, but in a more at a galnce way. For example having a special icon for the sniper does not add "gameyness". It just lets you distinqiush and find the unit easier. Same as flag helps you find HQ's. These are just things that are within a game that help the player with situation awarness to better manging your forces when playing a game like CM, or any other RTS. "Gamey' to me is unrealistic ranges, damage models, troops that can run forever and not get tired, that kind of thing. In otherwords unrealistic game phsysics. For example if a a bunch of grenades being thrown at a Tiger tank were to destroy it I would call that "gamey". If my guys never got tired like in so many other RTS games, I would call that gamey. If adding a special icon to make finding the sniper easier made the unit invincible, or he shot laser beams I would call that gamey.
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"BE LIKE WATER" . When water goes into the teapot it adapts to the teapot. When water goes into a cup it adapts to the cup.
Agree getting used to shorter ranges again will take a bit getting used to especially if after CMSF. I'm sure the groghood should do just fine.
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This is another one of those great features from Cmx1 that would be great in any further CMSF patch, or any further CM builds. What I have noticed is many times I must move the camera around, zoom, rotate, count the number of floors in a high rise ect... to get this information Wouldn't it be much quicker to just find that info out in the GUI ala CMx1.? This would be especially useful for RTS play to give quicker unit status at a glance when camera views are a bit precarious in obtaining that info such as being viewed from a above, or far away.
In the design concept I have removed the words for experience levels such as “Veteran” as shown in the illustration, and replaced with a “V” in the box. I feel this enough to know what it is, and frees up that area for Floor/passenger status just as in CMx1.
My thoughts are to have a single color-coded letter designate to signify experience. Color code adds another level of quick association, and helps those with bad eyes make stuff out.
Red “C” = Conscript
Orange “G” = Green
Yellow “R” = Regular
White “V” = Veteran (thinking of colors, I think is better after making pic, you get the idea though.)
Green “E” “ Elite”
Blue “K” = Crack
I think CMSF has come along way, and has a good UI that has improved in situation awareness with adding things such as more unique icon I.E. Sniper, flickering casualty icon ect…. This one of those things along those lines that makes it all that much better.
Would you rather have to change camera views if you must to find out what floor on, and passenger status… OR would you rather just see that information in the GUI when the unit is selected ala Cmx1?
Just some feedback , and ideas to share with the community.
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Bump to some mods for action spots and arcs. I too find the action spots hard to see sometimes, and the arcs are too obnoxuiosly overpowering and would like to see them tones down.
Bump also to the return of quick 180 degree arc that you extended in depth via the Ctrl key (I think) ala Cmx1.
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You're spot on about the transparency of UI being dependent on muscle memory and the grouping of similar commands with modifier keys being easier to grasp - however with CMBN there was a few issues: it's Mac and PC, hence no "cmd" key, plus things like the lack of Function keys for minimal kbds plus multi-language support.
It's a bit of a (M)inefield.
What BFC have done is bundle the keys I created as an alternative* - however these won't suit everyone, especially people who use the wasd keys for camera nav, whereas the default layout they supply will.
Give them a go when you've got the game and see how they suit you - dead easy to change if you don't like them.
*see the CMSF forum for what they're like.
What I am referring to is not Cmx2 interface, which I have no problems with especially in WEGO from playing CMSF. For RTS it is not a problem for me because I use a multi button mouse, and a N52. I control this game VERY fast with these with complete ease. Using the keyboard however for RTS, is definitely not the best I have used. What I was referring to was the next build for CMx3 hotkey/camera control.
You are right I do not know much about mac/pc compatibility issues. I am not a programmer, but drawing from playing other games in the method I described above with the use of the Ctrl and Alt key I have come up with a keyboard design than is optimal for RTS play. With this method which was used by Sudden strike, and taking the concepts from TOW I can fit all the commands into 15 buttons using the keyboard grid Q to B. There are plenty of keys left over for Sound on off ect.. on the right side of keyboard.
IMO opinion the camera is the best I have used in any game as is now. The command and control are great. I would like to see improvements with aiding in situational awareness at a glance. The problem is the hotkey layout for RTS. The key is to not have all the commands grouped under 4 tabs, but rather to have groupings of orders per hotkey such as TOW approach with sub tabs under primary order.
This layout is designed for what I feel is the most popular way of controlling which is navigation with mouse; right hand, and hotkeys orders for left hand. The option to set up single key per command should also be available to please all. #Pad and arrows can be for keyboard camera navigation option. Why anyone would play like that though is beyond me.
Here is layout that groups orders logically, and by most common used.
First row: MOVE orders.
Q key=QUICK, Q+Ctrl=FAST,
W key=MOVE, W+Ctrl=REVERSE
E key= ASSAULT, E+Ctrl= BLAST
R key=HUNT, R+Ctrl=SLOW
T key=POP SMOKE, R+CTRL= TARGET SMOKE
2nd row: COMBAT/SPECIALS:
A key= TARGET, A+Ctrl=TARGET LIGHT, A+Alt=CLEAR TARGET
S key= TARGET ARC
D key= FACE
F key = HIDE
G key=OPEN UP
3rd ROW: SPECIAL/ADMIN
Z key=PAUSE, Z+Ctrl= STOP, Z+Alt=CANCEL LAST WAYPOINT
X key= AQUIRE
C key= DISMOUNT, C+ Ctrl = BAIL OUT
V key = SPLIT, V+Ctrl= TRANSFER (really would like to see this added)
B key = AT TEAM , B+Ctrl=ASSAULT TEAM, B+ALT=SCOUT TEAM
CAMERA
Space bar= POP UP ORDERS as is now, but color coded text to mach buttons and lines
Tab= LOCK CAMERA TO UNIT
` key= RESELECT PREVIOUS UNIT
1-9= PRESET CAMERA VIEWS
F1= ZOOM OUT
F2=ZOOM IN
F3= TOGGLE ZOOM
F4= 180 turn
+ and - = CYCLE THROUGH UNITS (option to bind to forward/back side mouse buttons)
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Here are mine:
1. Icon bases mod from CMSF. The chevron shape is better than a circle for determining facing direction when playing from above.
2. Grid terrain. I made one for CMSF, and yes it helps to see the lay of the land just as it did in CMx1.
3. Red tracers because they show better than yellow. Better yet different color tracers for each side. There was Cmx1 mod like this I liked.
4.Vin's animated text. I will be making one for CMBN too. Adds much interest to, and makes text easier to decipher.
5.Kelly's Heroes face mod. I kept this from CMx1 and hope to use it again for CMBN. I would much rather see Eastwood with his helmet tilted to the side for HQ's rather than generic faces. I took my basic training pic the same way, but of course they made me. button the chin strap so I did not look as cool
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I don't find the TAC AI too bad with the stances, but on occasion do see the troops do some stupid stuff. Playing not long ago I had some troops in a building who were all taking a knee, but one dude decided he wanted to stand up. I’m yelling at the screen "Get down you dummy, you're going to get shot!" I no sooner got the words out, when he did get shot. I guess this was to simulate not all people are as bright as you would hope. I see where the request is coming from, and certainly see where it could be of use at certain times when you want to make sure the troops don't do something stupid like my dummy that got shot. The problem with wanting to incorporate more commands is where to fit it in the UI? There are just so many hotkeys to go around and it seems rather full as is.
I think as more tweaking of the TAC AI takes place, by the developers less guys will be standing at times when they ought not to be, and will take more common sense stances as situation dictates. All in all though I think the TAC AI for the game is better than most I have played. I do not ever see it being perfect.
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I want a company clerk unit! Perhaps we can call it Radar, but then again that may give the player the intel before it happens
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Personally I find it much quicker to use the mouse to navigate and the other hand to hit Hotkeys. But that's just personal taste.
Steve
I absolutly agree. That IS the quickest way. Right hand mouse and camera/cursor control. Left hand hotkeys. I think the mouse configure Clark is describing works best in FPS games, not RTS. The reason is that it ties up BOTH hands controlling the camera.
I have to admit the way the game controls was awkward at first, and took a bit getting used to. Now that I am I don't have much problem controling the game camera and hotkeys with it's current set up at all with speed via N52 an MXmouse. It really has become second nature, but it can be a bit awkward since it so different than other games switching back and forth from TOW. Having the two games control similarly would have benifits. TOW would be a good base to design around I think as it controls in a way many are used to for RTS play.
Whatever you do, please keep the spacebar commands. Always a quicky to fallback on for commands. I kind of think of it as a unique CM tradition. Glad it is back!
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I think designing with RTS in mind is the way to go due to it's faster pace. Obviously, designing a WEGO keyboard layout for RTS doesn't seem to be comfortable for many. If you take a look at some of this TOW GUI I designed http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=93719 I see no reason that it could not be adapted to CM. The key to maximizing the amount of commands one can get out of available keys are the use of the Ctrl, ALt, keys and combo of. I learned this from Sudden Strike 2's interface. Sudden Strike had some of the best command and control still in comparison to other games that have come along. One key can offer up to 4 command variations with ease of learning use through muscle reptition, and key closness proximity.
Command Key
Ctrl +Key
Alt+ Key
Ctrl+Alt+Key
Here is sample of how Sudden Strike used more than one command per hotkey:
Command Key = Lay a landmine there
Ctrl + Command key= Lay mines in a lose pattern
Alt key + command key = Lay a mine at current location
Ctrl+Alt+Command key= Lay mines in a tight pattern
GUI button layout is the same as the keyboard to enforce muscle memory. 3 rows of 5, or 6 buttons each row
Using the design I have in that thread. The current Alt commands trees on/off ect.. would most logically be moved to the F1-F12 freeing the Alt key for better uses.
BF if you want someone with much RTS experience in command and control in things I know that work well in regard to this I can offer valuable input with this.
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Marco, very nice!! Already got it on my mods to install list. Looks great, and adds more functionality to UI. Now if we can just mod those casualty weapons to turn red when casualty so you know what weapon is down without having to zoom to ground level to see the 3d model. After medic aid, and weapon retrieval the weapon icon would disappear from the UI roaster as they do now.
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For small, or large caliber it seems easy enough to remeber this rifle takes that ammo, and has this efective range. Large caliber kills everthing from pretty much any range. Where things get a bit obscure is with mid caliber weapons where range played a roll in pentration. At least this is what I recollect from Cmx1. I recall that things such as a 37mm being able to damage a Panther in the rear at under 100mm. Things like that get a little gray for me in remembering.
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Intel in CM isn't perfect, but as players move up in difficulty, they are forced to fall back to using good tactics and flexibility instead of relying on intelMore
The Intel in CMx1 was much more obscure for the most part on possitive I.D. of enemy units. Even in Iron mode the enemy unit is ALWAYS positive I.D as to what type of unit it is. There is no generic infantry as in CMx1. There is that's a Forward observer, or a ATGM ect.. You even get the enemy’s rank, and unit designation right off the bat. I find the only real difference in playing in Iron mode is the longer arty times, and medic aid times from the other modes. In essence CMx1 was much more "Irony" than CMSF Iron although including this feature. My tactics do not seem to change no matter which difficulty level playing on. Good tactics, and flexibility will always be needed to win a CM battle. You cannot win by intel alone, but it plays a big part. Try winning on tactics, and flexibility alone I.E. setting up good overwatch ect.. without good recon info.
Winning the information war in deception and foreknowledge is one of the 6 key tenants as stated in the "Art of War", so intelligence gathering must be VERY important. I don't think Sun Tzu was wrong. Ironically he does not mention the words tactics and flexibility in the top 6.
They are:
1.Win all without fighting.
2. Avoid strength, attack weakness.
3.DECEPTION, and FORKNOWLEDGE.
4.Speed, and preparation.
5. Shaping the enemy.
6.Charicter based leadership.
I have heard many the commander say battle is “controlled chaos”, otherwise it would simply be chaos with NO command and control. I have played RTS multiplayer 8v8 HvH games that were much faster, had much larger forces to control, and were much more chaotic than CMSF. The complete chaos only added to the frustration in aspects of gameplay. It did not make the game anymore entertaining, or give it a more realistic feel. All it did was make one ask how could the command and control be improved.
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Aye, and the app is called a "pencil"
Yes, plenty of time to grab a pencil during RTS play to mark down what your unit saw, but you missed because your attention was elsewhere. WEGO guy can just pull out his app and mark away rewinding till his hearts content
Believe me only those who have RTS, especialy HvH know where I am coming from with this to aid in much the way the replay does for the WEGO player Imagine WEGO with NO replay!
Perhaps there is a better way to address this issue of missing, and tracking intel. I don’t know. On the CMBN forum there is a suggestion of a log box with perhaps audio cues, as used in other RTS games. The more I RTS with CMSF the more I see the need in it as well as it works for other games.
Absolutly, intel degrades, and could not see this functionality in effect for faded “?” icons. For fresh spotting like the player just missed that he would not have missed if playing WEGO then the frustration remains. I say again, this feature was in CMx,1 and I am sure no one complained it was there, nor has anyone complained about new features such as the flickering icon when casualties. Why? They are features to improve situational awarness to aid the player. It is the same principle. They just make the game easier to play. That's all, with no taking from realism.
Anyway, from what I read earlier in this thread BF is looking at ways to improve "?" system, and that is a good thing.
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If you want speed and efficiency with this, or any other game, get two things: A mouse with as many programmable buttons, and a NostramoN52. With any game it takes a bit of trial and error to get your hotkeys laid out comfortably on them, but once you do you will control with SPEED, comfort, and efficiency! If you do not take this advice, and RTS HvH against one who is using what I recommend you will LOSE on the draw EVERYTIME in speed of issuing commands to your units. I control this game VERY fast. I have all the most commands/camera tied to the two devices. All others I acces via the space bar.
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Just to confirm this feature does not give the player any more, or special information than has not been revealed to him already through recon. It simply allows the player to re-access that information if missed during RTS play in an organized efficient way. This is not gamey, and in no way takes away from the realism, but rather adds efficiency at a glance. Also, I think it adds realism quit frankly. I can’t imagine a battalion commander’s maps being blotted with “?” for contacts during a briefing. I am sure their maps are as detailed as possible to KEEP TRACK of the accumulated recon reports. We had contact with armor here, RPG teams there, ect…
Liken it to this: You have traveled the world and are standing before a world map. You can look at the map and have to recall it all from memory I went here, and I went there in regards to the visual, OR you can put map pins on the map to recall the information at a glance. It is the SAME information only presented in a more efficient way.
I got an app for that!
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That's it damn it! I'm getting me an iphone! Perhaps a whole new industry can open up. Apps for Combat Mission.
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For the moduals for this I would expect they will continue with the ETO Normandy + with Brits next perhaps with Caan, or Market Garden. Perhaps Russians for the Fall of Berlin. It doesnt matter to me. It is all good.
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I have seen the game advertised on niche websites such as Combatism, and The Wargamer. The Buzz seems up for the types interested in more realistic gaming like the folks here. Seems like many who used to play CMx1, but skipped CMSF are getting the word. I play CMSF, am active in the forum, and still got the first press release with first screens from a buddy who doesn't CMSF, or forum, but was a CMx1 player.
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Maybe someday, as time allows, they'll be options for "more fun".
I think the problem is that people automatically equate the word "fun" with "gamey". So, that there are no misunderstandings within the groghood. When I use the word "fun" for what I am getting at it means to me "less frustrating" which = "more user friendly", which = “more pleasurable to use in design”, which = more “fun”. Fun does not mean unrealistic, but could mean more convenient, and less frustrating to use. A pleasure. "Gamey" to me is asking for game physics that are not realistic I.E. unrealistic hit damage ect.., or making it more like "Command and Conquer". My proposals (this is not my proposal, it was in CMx1!) will not make for more unrealistic interaction between the actual units, but are intended for a more user friendly interface. Much in the same way as some of the other informative UI additions that have been made make it easier to play such the flickering friendly icon when unit takes casualties. Such things do not change game environment to make things "gamey" and take away from the realism, but rather make the UI more user friendly at a glance to control the game.
Just cal me “Groggy” I’m the “Fun” enhanhanced GUI design dwarf grog
The Face !!!.....can you see it now ?
in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Posted
Hey aren't you the same dude who first saw that face on the moon?
. I see it now that you have pointed it out,. Open mouth, long chin. What did you do smoke a fatty and stare at that pic for hours to notice that 
If you like double imagry check out my artwork, and see what you find.
www.vincentmonaco.com