Vinnart
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Posts posted by Vinnart
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The two biggest complaints I have been reading here about the game are missed features and the new command UI. Features such as non movable waypoints, Enter button statistics, ect.. , But this post is how to make the current command UI better.
Many have agreed that the new command UI is a bit awkward.
Here is my solution:
ADD HOTKEYS FOR ACCESSING MAIN ORDER MENUS - MOVEMENT, -COMBAT, ECT…. That’s the problem along with the key layout. The mouse camera controls are perfect! Leave those alone; just fix the unit view when locked in postion 3 or more.
It feels unnatural having the mouse camera key controls where they are on the left, and all though the number pad works ok, it is on the right side of the keyboard, which feels awkward when using the mouse. Most games have the orders keys where the camera is in this game making it a bit awkward. This coupled with having to cycle through the orders top menu instead of having a hot key for each is what I feel is making this game not feel as fluid with the command buttons. I guarantee the following layout would feel much more natural, and be much faster in real time mode than cycling through. Giving a hot key to access the main orders makes sense, and will give gamers the option to utilize gears and macro chains on programmable keyboards. Most games like FPS have cycles for going through weapons and a hot key for each weapon. Any competitive gamer will tell you it is faster to hit one key to access vs. cycling through. It is more decisive too, since when cycling you may pass your destination and have to cycle back or through the whole chain to get where you want to go. The whole thing would be better as well in WEGO mode. Many have said they want right click menus and hot keys for each command, but I do not think it practical for real time play. Besides this is more streamlined.
Current system to get from movement menu to special Hit Y key TWICE, oops hit too many time need to hit T again, Then another key to access command. OR Take your cursor away from the map to click the menu.
My way Hit 1,2,3, or 4 then your command button. This is faster, and easy to remember commands. Example anti- tank teams is a 4-E (hey sounds like a M.O.S.)
A LAYOUT THAT WILL WORK:
Camera – Mouse controls are great! (Except for the already mentioned not being able to see your selected unit while locked in position 3 or more). Move the camera control keys to where the number pad is, and move the preset camera positions from the number keys to the F-keys.
Command Keys – Make a hot key for each command top menu using the number keys
Movement = (number key 1). Keep Hunt behavior from CMx1 so it keeps moving after threat is gone. There are three slots open and I would add “move to contact” (acts like current Hunt) so you have two different behaviors as in CMx1. Add rotate command, and either seek hull down or shoot and scoot
Combat = number key 2
Special = number key 3
Administrative = number key 4
Top row of commands = start at Q key
Mid row = start at A key
Bottom row = start at Z key
Keep specific keys as is now for MOVE ( space bar) - give more information at waypoints, miss the words that appeared showing what the unit is doing when selected, worked better in CMx1. TARGET (V key) - good streamlining it with LOS tool!, but give more information such as terrain, building ect…Info was better in CMx1 as well as having specific terrain types rocky, rough ect..maybe it’s gamey but it worked. I feel like I’m totally in the open and its just open area. FACE (F key) give it the behavior I mention below. HIDE(R key) – it was clearer in CMx1 as it had the words over the waypoints when selected and in the unit information bar Units do hide now when given the command at the end of a waypoint, but we have no way to confirm that order. PAUSE (T key)- great improvemt over CMx1 whith being able to pause at way points and at the beginning to issue order then move out, keep as is.
Other command suggestions – include a rotate command under the movement commands. It would feel more natural there. Keep Face command where it is under combat menu, but have it work so it rotates the gun/turret in the direction ordered, giving a general streamlined covering arc of max range 180 degrees. Use covering arc command for more specific arcs, and for keeping the turret in a specific direction while stationary. Face and rotate should be two different commands. Rotate is for the hull, face is for the turret control while on the move. When stationary, face and rotate are one in the same as it is now. In this way Face stays where it is under the combat menu, as it must from what I recall the developers saying it had to. Adding the rotate command to the movement menu makes it easier to issue it at the end of waypoints since it would be in same menu as the other movement commands.
Having face work in this manner would be great for real time play.
Hope the developers consider testing these sugestions.
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I agree with so many of the comments here. Some very well written post. I think anybody who comes down on the developers, or says they absolutely hate this game is crazy! Most are focusing too much on the negative. Sure it’s not the CMx1 we have all come to enjoy, but the new game is not bad, just needs some more working out. All I know is from what I have played in the demo. I may get the game when some patching is done. There are many things I miss too from CMAK, and I am sure the developers will include what they can. I think the game engine has much potential in that they have given the best of both worlds combining RT/WEGO options. I enjoy playing both styles since they offer different experiences.
I do not see any problems with the graphics. They are great! Perhaps some refinements, but not a priority. The focus should be more improvement in including the features we loved from CMx1 in CMSF, and in improving the UI. I agree most of us would not have minded a version of this game if it were basically CMAK with the new graphics. That would have been the safest route to take from a business standpoint. You have something that works, you stick with it and refine. The big question is, does the new engine have the capabilities to incorporate the features we miss from CMx1 and how well would the old UI work with real time game play? I have played Sudden Strike for a few years on a league and I am not sure that right click pop up menus would be practical for real time play. Aside from that the old UI along with the new improved camera control would probably work fine. Wouldn’t know unless I tried it. If it would not, then you must go in a different direction if you want the best of both worlds RT/WEGO in a single package. Perhaps a reason for why CMSF had to change to what it is.
Ok, that is the version that was not made. Let's see how we can improve the current game. Its biggest complaints have been in missed features and the current UI. Both of which I am sure can be fixed depending on the current engines capabilities.
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I think it is an improvement. I personally prefer veteran mode so I can always see my units better.
The only thing I would change perhaps is the icon shapes. Instead of diamonds for enemy and circles for USA, I would have different shapes for types.
Red diamond= enemy team
Blue diamond= USA team
Red circle= enemy vehicle
Blue circle= USA vehicle
Red triangle= enemy armor
Blue triangle= USA armor
Red square= enemy infantry
Blue square= USA infantry
Grayed circle with yellow ?= Unknown unit
Just ideas to make the icons more interesting, and to further differentiate the units.
[ August 01, 2007, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Vinnart ]
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Yes, but the question is: Suppose they took the graphics from this engine and made a game basically the same as CMAK in the way it played and controlled, would it be as successful as the current game might be? I believe it would. The reason why it would be a success is it already has a fan base that already like the way CMAK is, and are comfortable with it. One of the only things that wasn't the greatest was the graphics from the first series. Other than that, I believe CMAK is one of the best games ever created in game play and command and control.
Another version of this game may have went like this:
Take the CMSF units and improved graphics and put it into the present CMAK UI. Update portraits, weapons ect..
Add the current real-time capability and LOS system.
Add the new improvements such as the way units no longer pause at waypoints unless ordered to(One of my peeves with CMAK)
Now, I am not saying that the current game is bad, but if it were as described above it would be more of a sure thing. Only the sales of the current game will dictate whether they make something more like the first, but tweaked with the current improved graphics If the game does not do as well as expected that is what I would recommend next installment.
Perhaps gaming taste isn’t the same as musical taste. I wonder how the Rolling Stones would do if they came out with a classical music album? Sometimes subtle change is better than radical.
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The orange lines for covering arcs. The current looks like a giant searchlight and is graphically overpowering and ugly. I also miss the use of using the arc commands along with shift and control to quickly set max range or equal area. I think the face command when given at the beginning of a move should rotate the guns in the direction ordered. This would be a quick way of giving a general covering arc command especially when playing in real time.
I do like how you can now click on a communication icon to automatically jump to the command unit, and how you can click on a unit under the command to jump to a subordinate unit, but I miss the command lines emitting from the command unit.
I know it has been requested many times for adjustable waypoints, but how about a little larger “tip” for the end of the waypoint chain. I am finding it hard to click on it being so tiny from further way to issue facing commands at the end.
Now that I understand the combining of the line of sight tool with the target order I think this was logical choice by the developers. I do miss how the line of sight tool in CMAK told you what you were looking at at it’s tip (woods, Hellcat, ect..) Perhaps this will be included in. The current “area target” is not as informative. If the requested info was added we should assume that anything that is not an enemy is an area target.
Definitive terrain “tiles” such as rough, rocky, ect… I would like to definitively know what type of terrain the units are in. Currently I put my troops in what I think is “rocky” terrain, but I do not know for sure if it is giving and cover concealment bonuses. I miss how this information was included in the UI. So far from what I have played in the demo it looks like there is nothing but open ground. A few scattered trees, but do they really offer any cover?
I liked the different command bonuses and icons (lightning bolt, star, ect..) from CMAK. I know it might have been a bit “gamey”, but it worked and it was easier to follow.
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If you plan to play this Real Time a Notromo or equivalent is a MUST if you want to be super fast. I also recommend a mouse with programmable side buttons. I have played many multiplayer RTS games and I guarantee that specialty controllers like the Nostromo make a big difference in speed. Speed is a big key to winning when playing real time games. The Nostomo is very comfortable too. I rigged my with a strap so I can kick my legs up on the desk and strap it to my leg. The hotkeys are no problem now. Besides the game allows you to customize the hotkeys, which is a good touch. Like anything new it just takes a little patience and practic till it starts to feel natural. Many have said they request a right click menu as in CMAK, but I think that style might be a hinderence in real time play. Besides right clicks functions especially with the camera seem to work well as they are.
Like many I found the controls awkward at first. I think the main reason is that where the keyboard camera controls are awkward since most games have the main controls there. The number pad is not bad though if you want to use the keyboard.
Forget about the keyboard for controlling the camera. Use the mouse. The camera in this game is one of the best I have ever used. Other games usually do not give all the angles of view available like this one. Using this camera is a breeze, nice and smooth with holding the mouse buttons down. My only criticism is that camera positions 3 or above do not show the unit when view is locked on. I think CMAK was better in that you could see the unit when in positions 3,4 ect.. Hopefully the developers will fix this in a patch.
As stated above I also feel the face command feels more like it should be included with the movement commands. Since you can issue a face command at the beginning and end of a waypoint, I thought that the reason for this was to allow a tank to face the turret in that direction while on the move, but it doesn’t seem to work like that. I think it would be good if it did though as it would be a quick way of issuing a general covering arc. Perhaps one of the development team can chime in explaining why they put it where they did and it’s current uses?
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Thanks, I'm liking it more and more, but there doesn't look like much cover. Do the trees offer decent cover similiar to how scattered trees or woods worked in CMAK?
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I am not a big fan of desert combat. Even CMAK I usually don't play the desert maps because I find the colors hard on my eyes. I prefer green terrain such as in Italy. Wondering if CMSF has terrain other than desert. If so can someone please post some screen shots.
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More votes for the same:
I Have only played it a bit, but intitaly I am missing the line of sight tool. It helps so much in knowing for sure what the LOS sight for a unit is. It also is a big help in seeing the suttle elevations of the terrain as well as telling the type "woods, rough ect... It gives you immidiate info on distance.
Adjustable way points as well as most of the other comments previously mentioned.
Still putting it through it's paces. Graphics look great!
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I would like to know more about the camera. In every screen shot I have seen it is very close up. Will it have the range of views from close up to zoomed way out such as is in the present Combat Mission games? How will it be controlled? I think the camera range for the CM1 engine is the best I have seen so far in any game.
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I would like to know more about the camera. In every screen shot I have seen it is very close up. Will it have the range of views from close up to zoomed way out such as is in the present Combat Mission games? How will it be controlled? I think the camera range for the CM1 engine is the best I have seen so far in any game.
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I would like to know more about the camera. In every screen shot I have seen it is very close up. Will it have the range of views from close up to zoomed way out such as is in the present Combat Mission games? How will it be controlled? I think the camera range for the CM1 engine is the best I have seen so far in any game.
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I would even settle for something like how it was done in the Sudden Strike series where the units can enter, but you do not see the unit once inside except muzzle flashes from the windows when they fire out. The AI could be programed for the units to take up the best positions possible once inside the building. Developers hear us on this one, your limiting the "real Life" environment.
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I have to say that it makes no sense to me at all why they would try to make such a realistic game and leave infantry entry into building out. This is very dissapointing news and my #1 complaint on what was looking like the ulimate in realistic ww2 gaming. I thought this was to be realtime version of Combat Mission? Buildings can play such a vital role in that game.
How to solve the command and control UI
in Combat Mission Shock Force 1
Posted
There are basically two ways to go:
Have a keyboard hotkey for each separate command as it was in CMx1.
PROS:
*The CMx1 fan base is used to this.
*Can be remembered through repetition.
CONS:
*Not as streamlined
*You have to move your eyes away from the screen to the keyboard to find keys,and you have to move your left hand around the keyboard to get to the keys. This is fine for WEGO, but slower for real time when speed is crucial.
Then there is the current 9 grid system.
PRO:
*Streamlined
*Eyes stay on the screen. Hand doesn't have to move around keyboard.
*Can be remembered through repetition
*More practical when playing in real time
*Familiar and natural to those who play RTS and FPS games other than only CMx1
CON:
*Not familiar to those who only have played CMx1
*The current lack of a hotkey to access each of the main command menus limits one to cycling, and the way you prefer to set up a 9-grid system.
The Developers were smart to allow one to program the hotkeys as they wish, so where they are as a default is not a major problem, as you can lay it out as you prefer. The problem is that if no hotkey exist in the first place then one is limited. I do believe that my above layout would work much better as the default setting.
If they want keep a hotkey for those who prefer cycling (which is not as good as far as I am concerned) that’s fine, but ADD HOTKEYS FOR ACCESSING MAIN ORDER MENUS so we have the option to control this way. This is it! That’s what’s missing. Cycling sucks, and offers no way to memorize keys for instant access.