rudel.dietrich
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Posts posted by rudel.dietrich
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I have seen a few different sources list the T-72M1S
If nothing can be found about it then is is not a huge deal.
It is basicaly a T-72AV without ERA armour.
It CAN fire AT-11 ATGMs
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I want to again politely say that I see this as a mistake.Originally posted by Battlefront.com:Here are some updated thoughts about Syrian T-72 models and specs based on Rudel's info, Jane's, various sources on the Internet, and Zaloga's brilliant post war Soviet armor book.
T-72
Original version, deadlined for parts or simply used up during the last few decades. We won't be including this version.
Syria still have several hundred of these 'early' models still rolling.
I am going to give up on the A model since I agree with you guys that very few is any are still running.
However, I am going to continue to fight for the inclusion of the T-72B1 and T-72G model.
I belive significant numbers of these are still being used and have not been upgraded or stripped for parts.
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Steve, I listed everything Syria had. But no one has paid attention yet.
I am getting pretty confused here by the different model variations.
I asked around at work and am getting different opinions as well.
My best data is what I listed along with number of tanks avaliable.
Unfortunatly this data gives the Soviet designation to the vehicle and not the Syrian or export version.
Also from what I read Syria has been reluctant to purchase export models since results have shown that they are rather poor in combat.
They either purchase them straight from Russia itself, the former eastern bloc, or they buy upgrade kits and perform upgrades to Russian standerd.
If you will look at the bottom of page 10 and my second to last post, you will see a quick list of all the tanks I found in Syrias inventory.
I will concede that the M model is probably in Syrian hands in all the forms you listed.
I believe the Syrians possess both the T-72B1 and the T-72G
I will stand by that
I will concede my point on the T-72A
My educated guess is that they have either been upgraded or stripped for parts. You guys can cut that model.
The T-72AV is not on your list. Did you forget it?
I know Syria has them
The T-72M1S
I know Finland had some of these and used this designation for them.
I would put out a call for Fins on this board to hop over here and tell us about this version.
I am reasonably sure Syria has some or something close to it. A few sources list this variant by the name I gave.
Most of my info is coming from Janes, monthy Pentagon reports, monthly third party defense contrator reports, defense think tank reports, some older (pretty old) CIA reports that I have access too, some contact in Israel
And then some stuff I can't list
I think our lists match pretty closely we are just different on what to call some of this stuff.
Some of my better sources are giving the Russian model name and not the export model name.
Can you do this for the T-62 and T-55 as well?
I am not trying to argue with you guys
Just trying to get an accurate as possible picture as we can before you start going through the trouble of putting this stuff into the game.
And how easy is it to make a base model and then put on extra stuff like better fire control and ERA etc?
If it is pretty easy, I would go with the 'macro' approach and use both mine and your lists.
That way we would at least cover everything.
We may hit a few they do not actualy have.
But if we can't figure it out.
No one outside a few people in Syria will ever know
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IMO I think ATGs have a place on the modern battlefield in a defensive role.Originally posted by Battlefront.com:From our perspective, if the 100mm ATG is really only good for launching ATGMs, then there is no point in having it. We already have ATGM teams
Sure, sure... I know there are differences, but we have to be realistic about what we can get into the game in a reasonable amonut of time. We're already a year into overtime.Steve
They would have to be well hidden and well covered, but if that could be achived and they were supported and had a good crew then they could be deadly.
The T-12 like tanks has many many different versions.
Some have good optics, computer assisted firing, gun stabilization and IR sights.
Those from a location described above could be very very tricky.
Their 100mm shells also come in lots of different versions and some of the newer ones could be pretty deadly.
Bradleys and Strykers would have no chance against them and M1s would have to be careful.
From the front the shell has no chances but a flank or rear hit could easily destory a tank.
So while I see your point.
I do think they should be a high priority for future game installments assuming this things sell pretty well for you guys
I would also LOVE to see you guys take a crack at the 125mm 2A45 ATG
I think that guns with modern shells could have a chance of punching through the front armour of a Abrams.
Chances would be low, but I think it could do it.
Even rounds that didn't would do some damage and ring the bell of the crew pretty good.
Plus it can fire Refleks ATGMs
If im still Minister of Syrian Military Information :cool: at that points maybe I can have a tiny chance of influincing what goes into future modules.
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I meant far lighter calibers then 105s. More like 37s or 20s for hitting Humvees and such. </font>Originally posted by Lord General MB:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />A 100mm Soviet ATG is not the least bit mobile.
It requirs hours of set up time from a prepared posistion.
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Hmm... there's something grating about this. Dug in tanks would be far more vulnerable then mobile light anti-tank pieces, especially against an American opponent who can waste your desert-heated immobile tank from the air via infra-red. Of course, this isn't a defense for not including ATGs given that pretty much any land-based target (down to machine-gun nests and such, naturally) is vulnerable to precision air-strike in this day and age.Originally posted by Lord General MB:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />As for ATGs, the Syrians have very few in service. They've instead concentrated on using dug in outdated tanks for the AT role since they are more practical. We are including these. More on this as we go...
I think Steve's point, over all, is that CMSF will mostly feature localized flash-point maps, where urban combat and close action will negate American technological superiority to a degree. Thus, it would be highly unlikely to see ranged ATG duels with American tanks, since the game itself is geared away from that very principle (correct me if I'm wrong, of course). The only times we'd see ATGs used in that role, anyway, would be specific settings where the Syrians are ambushing, from disguised positions, and the Americans can't simply withdraw and call in the artillery- which I imagine is what they do if encountering such resistance.
Given that, I can understand dropping ATGs. However, I *would* have liked to see them in game, for the purpose of using the simulation to experiment with ATGs vs RPGs and such in urban combat. Ala Beruit and the apartment building mounted howitzer and such.
Anyway, what kinds of artillery pieces will be in, for the Syrians? Flak Guns? Because, if so, we could certainly use those to sub for ATGs. </font>
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My understanding is that Syria purchased very few of the export models and instead went with the straight Soviet models.
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And for clarity sake.
Here is a quick list of all tank models I have in my notes and which branch of service you would find them in.
T-54B - None of these are mobile, all have been buried in static defense.
T-55A - Found only in reserve armoued formations and at a platoon level with militia units upon mobilization.
T-55AMV - Probably found in frontline mechanized formations only. I do not think they exist in armoured divisions.
T-62 - Baseline model only found in reserve formations.
T-62M - Only found in reserve formations and in some frontline mechanized units.
T-62MV - Found in frontline armoured divisions.
T-72A - Mostly in mechanized formations and a few armoured divisions
T-72B - Mostly in armoured divisions and a few mechanized formations.
T-72G - Mostly in armoured divisions and a few mechanized formations.
T-72M1S - Found in frontline armoured divisions.
T-72AV - Found only in the Guards division.
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I would strongly compel you guys to split up T-72 models (and all tank models) into each kind of variant instead of having a generic 'early' model.Originally posted by KwazyDog:Hi Rudel! Yes, working out exactly that the Syrians have is a problem, particularly as the Russians exported vehicles that were configured differently to what they use under their own designations. From what I could confirm, the Syrians likely have...
T-72 'early' - Original model of the T-72 with optic sight.
T-72M - Export version of the base T-72 but include TPD-K1 FCS off of T-72A. Armor is as per T-72M though.
T-72M 'upgraded' - Export version as above but has been upgrade towards M1 standards. This includes replacing gill armor with skirts, smoke launchers, as well as extra armor welded to front hull.
T-72M1 - True export version of T-72A including turret armor quartz/steel insert.
T-72 'Turms' - This is a Syrian upgrade which we are currently calling turms as we don’t know the official designation, with around 122 being converted. Upgrades FCS, likely second generation reactive armor, etc, most likely placed on T-72M1's. Pretty serious upgrade overall.
Reactive armor (T-72AV) - A reasonable portion of the Syrian T-72s have received reactive armor upgrades of one sort or another, and we likely plan to place 1st generation reactive armor on most of the versions above as an option.
The difference between a baseline T-72 and a T-72G are pretty significant.
From what I can tell, Syria does not field any baseline models as all of them have either been purchased or upgraded to at least the A model.
The A model has a laser range finder, very early computer fire control system, a little more armour, side skirts and electronic smoke launcher.
The B model has thicker front armour and got the name 'Dolly Parton' for obvious reasons.
It also has some very early composite armour.
Syrian B models CANNOT fire ATGMs so these are actualy T-72B1 models.
The G model has the same armour as the A model (thus less than the B model)
But has a second generation computer fire control system and laser rangefinder.
Also has a better engine for a little more speed and greatly improved acceleration.
Also uses less fuel which is pretty useless in CM terms.
T-72M1S
Has the armour upgrade of the B model, with a third generation fire control system and laster range finder.
Has more composite armour than the B version for better HEAT protection.
Can fire the AT-11 ATGM
Basicly a best of both worlds from the B and G model.
The Finnish army currently uses these and I think uses the same naming scheme.
I know we have some Fins on this forum, I would ask them about it for more details.
T-72AV
Early generation ERA tiles
Mid 90s fire control system (i.e. pretty good), pretty good laser range finder and same armour as the B version.
Can fire AT-11 ATGM missles.
The Turms model I cannot find much about besides some info from the Italian firm that does the upgrade.
As far as I can tell it is simply a fire control computer update.
I am not sure which model of tank they are trying to upgrade however which would clue me in as to what kind of armour it has and if it should have ERA cells.
I e-mailed a friend in the goverment and he is going to get back to me on what the US militaries designation is going to be for the tank.
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Steve, one more question.
Before I invest any significant time into it.
Are you planning on adding in ANY Syrian aircraft/helo gunships?
Even for Red vs Red?
If so then I will start finding some info.
If not then I will not bother
Thanks
[ December 09, 2006, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ]
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I also think we are running into a little bit of confusion over the variant names.
Is the T-72M1 the T-72M1S that I listed?
Those 400 'T-72'
Are those baseline models or T-72A, T-72B or T-72G or something completly different?
It would help if Dan could be a little more specific.
Does the Turms variant go under a different name?
Maybe the T-72AV version that I have listed?
We need to clear up the confusion a little to try and get the purchase rarity correct and try and pin down as accuratly as possible what is actualy in country.
It also does not help matters much that export variants and Russian variants have differnt designations ans the Syrians have created some unique models and the Russians gave them a designation before selling them.
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The T-72 situation is a bit of a mess.
I have about 300 that fall into hard variants and then several hundred more that look like they had a few upgrades but do not fall into any variant.
It is confusing and I am not sure how to model is in the game.
Maybe allow the player and scenario designer to purchase a T-72 Upgraded
The price would fall somewhere between a regular T-72 and a T-72 MIS or AV
Then the engine would randomly assign some upgrades to this tank.
The player could luck out and get some good ones and lots of them or get just a handful of not so useful ones.
Not sure if that is possible, but that is how I would do it.
It looks like anything above the G model can fire AT-11s
The T-62MV can fire the AT-12
The T-55AMV can fire the AT-10
Syria has quanities of all these missles and part of their armour doctrine is using them in defensive posistion from very long ranges to soften up an oncoming force before switiching over to main gun rounds.
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They arn'tOriginally posted by flamingknives:As an observation, I doubt Steve will put T90s in for just 12, if they are there.
And the Russians did not bring 12 for themsevles either.
12 is an odd # and why you would bring a T-90 along with a naval base building crew is a very odd thing.
Syria had a 5 tank platoon of T-80s a few years ago that Russia gave to Syria for trial purposes.
An order was placed but it has never been delivered due to Syria owing Russia alot of debt from previous arms purchases.
Those 5 tanks have since been taken out of the country and back to Russia.
Other than that Syria has never had a better tank than the T-72AV
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Time to get this thread rolling along again.Originally posted by Battlefront.com:Ah! Ok, I had it in my memory that the number of BMP-3s was around 200. I must have added the "on hand" with "on order" numbers together.
Thanks for the confirmation of the other numbers! Like I said, it doesn't really matter much for CM:SF because there is no Rarity system, but it does give a hint to scenario designers an idea of proportions of equipment on hand.
Since you're having fun checking my numbers, how about tanks?
T-72 (upgraded)... 122 (these have various non-standard improvements)
T-72/T-72M....... 1478
T-62 (all types).... 1000
T-54/T-55.......... 1100 (some upgraded to MV standard)
T-54/T-55.......... 2500 (these are static emplacements)
Like the previos equipment, many of these are of questionable readiness for combt. However, these numbers supposedly have rulled out "deadlined" equipment.
Steve
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you.
Anyways, here is the data I have on tanks.
T-72 (upgraded)... (122) (these have various non-standard improvements)
300
I have over twice as many as you list in my sources.
But I am not sure what constitutes 'upgraded'
Some of them appaer to be half upgraded. I.E. they have thermal optics and laser rangefinders but no ERA tiles.
Some have the tiles and laser range finders but no thermal optics.
etc etc
I know the engine can put random 'stuff' onto the tanks model and can randomly assign gear and weapons to infantry.
Can it randomly assign mods and upgrades to vehicles?
If so that would be a good way to handle this problem.
If not...
I would venture to say Syrian has about 200 of the T-72MIS variant or something close to it.
And about 100 of the T-72AV variant, which is the best tank in its inventory.
All ~300 or so of these tanks are within the Guards armoured formation.
T-72/T-72M....... (1478)
T-72A - 400
T-72B - 400
T-72G - 550
T-72M - 250
~1600 total
T-62 (all types).... (1000)
T-62 - 400
Given out to resereve armour formations
T-62M - 400
T-62MV - 300
1110 total
The M and MV model are given out to front line armour units.
Most armoued divisions have a 2:1 T-72 to T-62 ratio.
Not sure what the different roles are but they are kept in different formations.
T-54/T-55.......... (1100) (some upgraded to MV standard)
T-55A - 1600
About half these are tied up with reserve formations.
The other 800 are scattered all over the country in secert warehouses and armouries and in mothballed shape. They will be activated (or it will be tried
) upon mobilization and then given out to static infantry formations to fight in local defese.Probably on a platoon scale and company size in larger cities and towns.
My information shows a full 1/3 are beyond repair and those that are left are in very very poor shape.
The crews are those that have armour training and then went back to civilian life.
They know how to work the tank but most of that they can do is get the tank running, get orders to move to one location, and fight from that spot.
Complex move orders would probably break down the tank and complex attack orders would be beyond the crews capacity.
The 800 active tanks with Syrias reserves are also in poor shape but not as bad.
They lose about 15 a month due to poor matienece and not many spare parts.
These are usualy towed and placed into static enplacements.
All still rolling or that can be moved under their own engines are the A varient.
All have the D10T79 Gun and a top mounted 12.7mm HMG
T-54/T-55.......... (2500)
Static T-55/T-54
My data shows about 1700 which is alot less than yours...
I think the reason is that mine takes into account that alot of the static tanks are ripped apart for spare parts or are in such poor shape that their weapons no longer even work but are left in place more for 'show'
About 700 of these sit facing the Golan heights.
250 are around the southern approach to Damascus
150 more are on the other appraoches to the city
300 have been hauled out to the west to face aveneues of approach from Iraq.
The rest are facing north towards Turkey and around other major cities and towns.
Most at the baseline T-55/T-54 with old guns and old ammo.
Most of these would have very poor 'crews' but due to the nature of their locations and their hull down state would be tough to crack.
Most are encased in wood or concrete and only have a small opening for the crew to see through and the gun barrel to poke through.
Finally my records say that 300 T-55AMV models exsist in Syria.
I am not sure if these are given to reserve units or frontline units...
Probably front line units to round out their T-72s and T-62s
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One more question
What screen rez are these shots in?
And does the game have a max scree rez or will one be imposed upon final release?
I would like to see the current trend in gaming continue where you can have as high of a rez as your monitor will support...
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I hope no one takes this clown seriouslyOriginally posted by LoneSyrian:On a side note, I know Steve adamantly refuses to even hear we've T 90s, so I'm workin' real hard on evidence without facing castration. All 12 of them arrived in Tartouss in two takes earlier this year, where the Russians are building a naval base. Now there's a fine piece of machinery.
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Simple is good in this case.Originally posted by Moon:Actually those tracers are just placeholders for now, and time permitting we'll add an option to have them "visible" (as a gameplay aid to see where fire is coming from) which would be more or less as you see above, and "realistic" (i.e. less noticeable and less frequent).
Rudel... the terrain can be VERY complex in the game (much more complex than in CMx1) due to the smaller footprint of all in-game objects. No more 20m tiles. The reason why you're seeing fairly simple terrain is because at the moment the file format is changing with every build Charles is releasing (which sometimes is two per week), so nobody (except Rune, hehe) is willing to spend much time with map making yet
Martin
I have never been to Syria, but I have been to northern Israel and I have been to southern Turkey.
What I see in the screenshot is pretty miuch spot on for what I see in game.
I was not trying to say anything bad about the terrian, at this point I think it looks amazing and find little that would improve it
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I am most amazed by the terrain.
It is pretty simple, but the colour selection seems spot and the 'roll' of the hills has a very realistic look to it, not jagged and sharp like in other games.
And terrian makes 95% of what will be on our screens most of the time so its good that it was done right.
I thinks it looks incredible and so far is the best looking part of the game to me.
Is anyone else having errors occur when you try and click on the screenshots?
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Buildings are looking very very nice.
I can see myself spending hours working on a single building when making maps.
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The HK GMGOriginally posted by flamingknives:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flamingknives:
FWIW, the British Military have acquired an automatic grenade launcher for use in Afghanistan. Differen't situations, different weapons (It's the Heckler and Koch Grenade Machine Gun) but it seems that such weapons haven't dropped right out of favour.
we got ahold of a couple right before I left the service and got to do some testing with it.
An amazing weapon with an incredible rate of fire </font>
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The HK GMGOriginally posted by flamingknives:FWIW, the British Military have acquired an automatic grenade launcher for use in Afghanistan. Differen't situations, different weapons (It's the Heckler and Koch Grenade Machine Gun) but it seems that such weapons haven't dropped right out of favour.
we got ahold of a couple right before I left the service and got to do some testing with it.
An amazing weapon with an incredible rate of fire
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Glass does not shatter these days and has not for decades.Originally posted by acrashb:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Nidan1:
The vehicle in the picture is also modified, the glass on side windows of most normal cars shatters into a million shards at the slightest impact. The windows in this BBC picture appear to be shatterproof glass. Obviously this guy was living with threats, or maybe all Lebanese governemnt officials travel in modified vehicles.
A automoble windshield is two pieces of glass with a sticky plastic sheet between them that keeps the glass from shattering onto the driver and passenger and cutting them. </font>
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Glass does not shatter these days and has not for decades.Originally posted by Nidan1:The vehicle in the picture is also modified, the glass on side windows of most normal cars shatters into a million shards at the slightest impact. The windows in this BBC picture appear to be shatterproof glass. Obviously this guy was living with threats, or maybe all Lebanese governemnt officials travel in modified vehicles.
A automoble windshield is two pieces of glass with a sticky plastic sheet between them that keeps the glass from shattering onto the driver and passenger and cutting them.
A bullet would punch right through like in the picture and not shatter the glass.
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Word is a machine pistol was used.
It explains the low damage done to the target and why the rounds did not get through the door even though they only had a automobile windshield to go through.
That would make sense, easily concealed.
You could probably even do a three person job.
One person drives a car and smashes target car.
Another person poses as a pedestrian and with a concealed machine pistol walks up to the stalled car and sprays the target through the window.
Both the gunner and the driver exfiltrate in the confusion and the crowd and no one gets a good look at them.
A few blocks away and meet up with the third member and a waiting car.
They drive off to a safe house and in 90 seconds you have just completed a professional style assasionation with a few weeks of planning and less than $100,000
I really need a new job. No wonder I cant get dates
Syrian TO&E thread
in Combat Mission Shock Force 1
Posted
That does clear alot of things up for me.
Which designations are you guys going with?
Syrian, export or Russian?
The only two questions remaining are to see if I can solve the ghost mystery of the T-72M1S (probably called something else on your list)
And to see if I can find any firmer evidence of the T-72B1
If I missed something please let me know
I feel like we are getting somewhere now