DaveDash

Do you even play CMSF? Apart from vehicles most of my units are rarely ever in C2. What difficulty level do you play on? Because sometimes even with vehicles I've been waiting minutes for them to pass on C2. Ever had a MG unit sitting right next to a HQ unit and the MG can't see the contact for a good few turns? So really, you're way over-exaggerating the issue or playing a completely different game to me. Also, CMSF uses modern military optics and communications systems. If anything, vehicles are under modelled. Take a look at the Baghdad 'Thunder Run' video on youtube to see how easily M1A1's can spot even a hidden RPG team, or read some books on the battle of Fallujah about how easily Tanks could spot snipers. Don't even get me started on how useless the optics are on those recon HUMVEEs in game, vs their real life counterparts. Infantry though do spot things too easily, IMO. I believe this is all based on the number of eyes contribute to spotting to a high degree.

In this example it is clear to me the sniper team opened fire, because you almost never spot infantry in buildings until you are right on top of them. If you went back and examines the replay I'd almost bet you'd hear the "phhpht" noise that would identify the unit as a sniper by sound as he fired, regardless of icon type. The system obviously isn't perfect. Based on the number of eyes has too much impact and vehicle optics have too little. IE BLUEFOR Tanks should be way better at spotting in CMSF in urban environments than they are, and BLUEFOR infantry way worse and more "confused" (longer ? time), but it's no where near as bad as people think. Optics obviously will play less of a part in CMBN so we may see spotting reduced overall.

Seriously, what are you talking about? I see no instant spotting in the CMSF engine. Contacts appear as a "?" the vast majority of the time, which means your men saw something. They're not sure what, but they know it's enemy. Only usually after something opens fire, does it get identified (and not always), in which case it's perfectly reasonable to assume your guys will know exactly what it is. This is especially true with RPGs, ATGMs, machine guns, and so forth. You are looking at it the wrong way and completely ignoring the whole "?" side of spotting. What Steve says here is exactly right. CMSF is just missing the aesthetic middle part of the spotting process where units turn from completely unknown to "type" identified, to positively identified. In the CMSF engine they just remain as a "?" for longer, until your units have positively ID'd them.

I hear you Lanzfeld. The game has gone too far in one direction now, and it gets to the point of ruining the suspension of disbelief at times. Especially guys surviving JDAMs and such.

I see this as basically a non-issue. 1. The vast majority of times infantry etc are spotted as a "?" until they are identified. That means whoever has spotted them knows what they are. Yes I do understand the point that all infantry should look the same, but it's reasonable to make the assumption they've positively ID'd their target by the time the icon is displayed. 2. HQ units, FO's, etc are rarely identified ever in practice in CMSF. You might see a "?" if they move around, but most units (unless they are large infantry squads) only become identified when they open up on you. Because HQ's and FO's (Syrian HQ's excepted) never open up on you, you hardly ever ever spot them. Like I said, the vast majority of times in practice when you actually ID units is when they start firing or moving around in the open, and it's not too far fetched that your units on the ground could figure out what they are. 3. The only 'flaw' in the system as such as lack of misidentifying, but I won't lose any sleep over it. So this is a problem in theory, in practice it hardly becomes an issue.

RPG's in game are far more lethal now than 20mm HE from a LAV or Bradley, which is not the case IRL. I'm not sure if RPG's have been nerfed, maybe they have, but they were probably over-modelled to begin with.

This. Very fun mission.

First impressions, it's an awesome map. Has a real 'Afghanistan' like feel to it. My basic initial plan is I'm going to move the Platoon of US Infantry across to the right flank and assault and clear that village, then probe ahead and clear as much as they can. The other US Platoon on the high ridge will then suppress the village on the left flank. In the mean time I will assemble my convoy, call down smoke, and move them up the middle towards the main hill, and branch off the clear the left flank. I will use my MGS Stryker to put a few rounds into the building on the hill, not to destroy it, but to discourage anyone inside it. Once I have everything up to the hill in the centre clear (left, middle, and right flank), I will move the US Platoon on the left flank up and on line, and then move each formation up in bounding overwatch fashion. Infantry up the flanks, convoy up the middle. Not sure if this is the orthodox way of doing it, but I have three hours, so I have plenty of time.

Gonna give this a go shortly.

I almost exclusively played WeGo when the game first came out, but moved to RT sometime after the Marines module was released. WeGo Advantages: -Much easier to control formations separated across the map, or larger formations -Able to review the action -I find it makes you plan better, as you have to consider your moves for the next minute or so -Able to react to overwhelming situations better. For example, on missions where you are being constantly bombarded with artillery, it's quite easy to miss spotting rounds in RT -Immersion factor, it's like being a commander giving orders and then watching your men follow them through. RT Advantages: -Granular control of vehicles makes their use FAR more effective, especially doing 'shoot and scoots' against ATGMs -Granular control of squads make them more effective -You don't waste anywhere near as much time doing missions because you do not need the action phase to end to issue new orders or change orders -Shorter IRL play time -Bad moves aren't punished nearly as badly as WeGo -Immersion factor, one could argue squads aren't as dumb as the tacAI and thus they can react better in RT under your control WeGo used to be a huge pain back in the day, but the TacAI is considerably better at path finding, surviving, and not running through stupid doors which make WeGo a lot more enjoyable now. Having said that, when I go back to it, yes watching the action is definitely fun (and allows you to watch the battle instead of focus on fighting it), I just miss the granular control. RT is definitely not 'wrist twitch' like RTS games, given the fact you can pause and issue orders. In fact, the only key you need to press is the pause key, and you can take a breather and plan just like WeGo (TCP/IP games notwithstanding)

Pretty much all HE rounds (apart from RPGs) have been nerfed against infantry, and buildings have gotten increased hitpoints. The reasoning was because of the way infantry bunches up in game. RPG's I've noticed still wipe out half a squad, however. Whereas 120mm tank rounds/20mm HE/Artillery/Javelins etc don't do anywhere near the damage they used to.

Yes, I noticed that, it is quite a good representation! Also I wasn't sure if the AI was in there or not, but in this particular time it turned out they were. They opened fire on another section that was moving around behind that building to the east, which I had occupied. The section in that building managed to suppress them before they did too much harm (again the importance of covering fires from 90 degrees). There are plenty of little puzzles like this on your maps, and they all sort of 'merge' together to create one big puzzle you have to work out on the company level.

I just did some tests, and I see what you mean. Also in my tests, when targeting the ground, Marders only use their MG42 with both Target and Target Light. Bug?

That's the one. There are no doors facing the north, and it has good fields of fire to the east and west. The only way to get eyes on that building is to take the building directly east of it, but that exposes you to fire from the right flank. Things like this are what I mean by a puzzle. Oh yeah of course. HQ units/FOs etc are fine on rooftops, as long as you're not playing a human and it's an OBVIOUS OP. ;)

Haha really? Here I was thinking you were being evil on purpose! Unfortunately I don't have a save, but there is one particular group of buildings right before the Orchard OBJ (Mission 04), on the right of the road, that really had me pondering for a while how I was going to suppress it.

Never put your guys on rooftops unless you know for damn sure you're gonna get fire superiority, and even then I still wouldnt. The key to keeping your infantry alive is to just play slow and cautious. Don't worry about the time limit, in most scenarios I've played in NATO thus far the enemy surrenders before I run out of time. You lose too many points for casualties. The next bit of advice is make sure you load up with plenty of ammo and suppress the hell out of everything before you move. If your infantry are advancing ANYWHERE without fire support they will die, and since you can't support them appropriately with vehicles due to RPG and ATGM threats all the time, it's up to them to do it. The key I've discovered, thanks to some very useful tips from the real life guys who do this in the tactics forum, is to have your supporting elements 90 degrees to where you are assaulting. That way, they can fire at those pesky buildings behind where your assaulting troops are moving towards. This way you wont be surprised by those guys in the room behind where your men run into. Also, split your squads, that way the supporting fireteam won't get suppressed (a bug with the Assault command) and can do its job. This obviously doesnt work well with the German mech infantry and their 6 man sections. The NATO missions I find are like one of those puzzle games where you start in a maze, and have to push the squares around in the right order to find your way out. You know those games Im talking about right? You really need to approach the map like that kind of puzzle, looking at all the doors of all the buildings and moving your entire dismounts around in a particular order that guarantees you the most cover and suppression. Identify which building in which block is the key terrain, and then think 'Ok, I need to move this section to cover my assault, but in order to get that section there, I need to move this other section here.. ' and so forth. Also don't forget if you have to cross a firing lane, artillery, smoke, and smoke grenades are your friend. I will post a screenshot soon of one of Paper Tigers maps to show you what I mean.

The answer to your problem is very simple: Screw the ROE. Unless its some sort of special building, and as long as you don't go around blowing up all the buildings willy nilly, you will still most likely get a major or total victory for annihilating the enemy. I consider the ROE to be 'If fired upon from that building, it's fare game, otherwise preserve'. Even HE rounds from the main cannon will damage a building btw, so you're going to damage it one way or another. Might as well get it over with. EDIT: I also understand that yeah, Marders should use their autocannon my default. Are they not doing this? Odd.

Apache, I haven't played the German campaign yet, but I'm going through the Canadian one. This mission (06) I am sure there are AT-14's and far too many potential spots. I've called down a ton of arty on where I suspect they may be, and I've played a bit of 'cat and mouse' or Jockeying as gibsonm calls it with my recon units, but they havn't taken the bait yet. I'll let you know how I do, probably in the NATO thread. It may very well be my tanks (if I get them in this mission) just sit looking pretty for most of it.

This suddenly explains all!

I could make something up like that, but It's not just this instance, there seems to be some sort of bug going over low walls, and going through where walls used to exist. I suspect it's something to do with the way the game calculates which action squares can see other action squares at the time of compiling, because it's not every low wall or every blown up high wall that has this issue. Not game breaking or anything by any stretch of the imagination, but sometimes these things are frustrating, especially when your guys are being mowed down and you need that tank to fire!

Im happy overall with CMSF. It's way too late to get anything tweaked, I'd much rather Normandy commence, since overall the game does its job very well now and BFC have supported it for a long time. However things like this, I'd like to go away. No LOS to the ground floor: LOS directly before the building: LOS to the enemy inside the building: Slightly off topic tho.

Indeed, although some minor frustrating issues still remain. In particular with ATGM's being able to shoot at you, but you can't shoot back at them with area fire. I've also noticed on the odd occasion a vehicle not being able to fire at level 1 of a building, through where a high wall used to be. Or, not being able to fire at level 1 over a low wall.

Well there is a slight variation on where the missile hits, but pretty much all the impacts are to the front turret. Some on the top. The damage seems to be a combination of tracks, IR sensors, targeting. Interestingly enough, the Leo2 didn't get destroyed at all this time (Survived 6 or so direct hits), until I moved it outside the berm. And it took a hit directly to the front turret, what looked like the lower part. So I suspect gibsonm is correct, however.

That's a good point gibsonm. I was sort of observing the impacts and they appeared pretty much in the same place every time.

Sure, I can load it up in WEGO and post some screenshots. I -suspect- that while angles and things are taken into consideration, without fail the tracks always seem the first thing to be damaged. As you can see, they're protected by the berm, so most AT-14 hits should be against the front turret, not anywhere near the tracks. So I think there is also some fudging for the sake of simplicity in there. We shall see by screenshots. Ill post where the tank is hit, and what damage is sustained.