Romulus

I apologize for the length of the present message but I had to quote other people who had quoted myself in order to make it all clear. Also, I apologize if I was not precise about some data but I did omit some information because I thought it would be quite easy to acquire through the suggested CMAK bibliography. So what? What dates should they be available from, what dates should they be available until? </font>

I have to make the following remarks about the Italian Army units. The remarks with a * denote the points that I personally deem very important. The lack of the following AFVs and support units 1.* The Italians produced 30 units of the Semovente M41 (with the M14/41 chassis) da 90/53 which were assigned to the X Raggruppamento (3 groups of 10 semoventi each) which fought in Sicily until its complete annihilation in July-August 1943. 2. The truck mounted 102/35 naval guns. A battalion of (truck mounted) 102/35 guns was even attached to the "Ariete" Armoured Division. 3.* The Italian manned Flak 88/56: the German manufactured AA/AT guns were assigned to several artillery battalions, for example the 6th Artillery Bn (attached to the "Ariete" Armoured Division) and a Bn of the 1st "Celere" Artillery Regt (27th "Brescia" Infantry Division). 4. The M15/42. Italy produced 90 Carri M15/42 which were assigned to the "Lancieri Vittorio Emanuele" of the "Ariete II" Armoured Division. Hence they were employed in Italy until the 8th September 1943 Armistice, then they were captured and employed by the Germans. The lack of the following infantry units in the OoB: 1.* The Marines Battalions, which were part of the "San Marco" Rgt and were employed in the Hecker Group (from February 42). 2. The Carabinieri parachute Battalion (its TO&E should differ from that of the Army parachute battalion). 3.* The Bersaglieri MC battalion and company: every Bersaglieri Regiment (until june 42 and then in July-August 43) consisted of two motorized battalions (which are present in CMAK) and of one motorcycle battalion (e.g. the 9th Rgt) or at least a motorcycle company (e.g. the 8th Rgt). The Bersaglieri MC Bn organization was: 3 x Bers. MC Rifle Company 3 x Rifle plt (of 4 squads each) 1 x MG plt (4 squads) The equipment: 36 LMG, 12 MMG 4. Every motorized and swift ("celere") division included an infantry motorcycle company which cannot be found in CMAK. 5.* The Libyan Battalions. I know it can be argued that they are not featured for the same reasons the Indians were left out but I would prefer to have them even if they do speak Italian instead of their native language. That's because they represented about the 10-12% of the entire Italian Army in North Africa especially in the first stages (1940-41) of the war. 6.* The Eastern Africa colonial troops. They were a considerable part of the Italian Army in that theatre (7051 officers, 9925 NCOs, 74216 Italian privates and 274028 colonial privates). Moreover they had quite different equipment: the Mannlicher rifle and mainly the Schwarzlose MG. The EA Colonial Battalions had 3 companies of 3 platoons + 1 MG company (18 LMG, 9 HMG). 7. The motorized MG battalion which was assigned to the (few) motorized divisions. It consisted of 4 companies of 3 platoons (48 MGs). 8. The "Folgore" Parachute Division, deployed in Northern Africa from July 41, included also an Airborne Engineer Battalion (Battaglione Guastatori). Some inaccuracies about specific AFVs: 1.* In CMAK the 75/18 gun's performance (mounted on the Semoventi M40 and M41) is underated: in the game it is not even able to penetrate a 50mm armor from a 100m distance while it was well known and popular (among the Italian crews) since it had a higher penetration power than the 47/32 gun (mounted on the M13/40 and on the M14/41). There are several AARs that maintain that it could penetrate 50mm at 1000 yards (this is reported even in Greene & Massignani "Rommel's North Africa Campaign" p136). The point is that the Italians did use a hollow charge shell, called "Effetto Pronto" that make a higher penetration power possible for the 75/18 gun. Another problem about the Semovente da 75/18 (so as the L40 da 47/32) is the lack of the 8mm (bow) MG. 2. In CMAK the Semovente da 75/32 is equipped with a 75/34 gun while it should be equipped with a 75/32 gun (guess it is a misprint). Maybe the confusion was generated by the fact that there were two different semoventi: the M41 da 75/32 and the M42 da 75/34 (90 units employed only by the Germans after the 8th Sept 43 Armistice and never employed by the Italians). I am working on the planes availability dates. Hope to find something interesting. Peppe

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I hope they are included. I would really enjoy playing with the Decima MAS, the Guardia Nazionale Repubblicana (Republican National Guard) the NP squads etc... Peppe

Does anyone know which nations are playable in the demo? Thanks Peppe

Yeah the link does not work. Anyway which vehicle are you talking about?

I was wondering if anyone had the chance to use any other Italian AFV (except for the L3) such as the M11/39 or the M13/41. And what about the Autocannoni (trucks with 75 or 90mm guns)? If you have employed one them, could you please tell me your impressions. Thanks Peppe

The Italian Comando Supremo had prepared detailed plans for the Malta invasion since the very beginning of the war. I think that if it had depended on Italians, the invasion would have taken place. Even the German Ober Kommando seemed to agree with the Italian view but the problem was Rommel who did not think the invasion would be a good strategical move and unfortunately he managed to convince Hitler. This is one of the main critiques that some make about Rommel.

On the CDV site you can read that CMAK should be released at the end of November: Here is the press release that can be found at CDV Karlsruhe, October 17, 2003 - WWII real-time strategists can look forward to the next sequel of the classic Combat Mission series this year. The Karlsruhe Publisher CDV Software Entertainment AG announced today that "Combat Mission 3 - Arika Korps" is anticipated to be available for sale in stores around the end of November.

The "Mixed Gebirgsjaeger Company" is the 190th Gebirgsjaeger Company. The 242nd Sturmgeschuetz Battalion consisted of: 1 Sturmgeschuetz HQ Company 3 Sturmgeschuetz Companies (7x75mm and 3x105mm StuG each) I have not found anything about the Italian Coastal Divisions. I am quite sure they have no Artillery Regiment and I can only guess they had 2 Infantry Regiments. Peppe

I checked on Nafziger's book. On 12 May 1943 the Sardinien Division was formed from the Sturmbrigade XI and consisted of: Sardinien Division ..1st Sardinien Panzergrenadier Regt ..2nd Sardinien Panzergrenadier Regt ..Sardinien Panzer Battalion ..1st-3rd Sardinien Panzerjaeger Companies ..Sardinien Artillery Regt ..Sardinien Signals Company The 90th Panzergrenadier Division was formed on 6 July 1943 from units drawn from Sardinien Div. 90th Panzergrenadier Division Divisional HQ ..190th(mot) Mapping Detachment ..Staff/90th (mot) Schuetzen Brigade ..Divisional Escort Company ....1 Motorcycle Platoon ....1 Panzerjaeger Platoon ....1 Pioneer Platoon 155th Panzergrenadier Regt (from 1st Sardinien Panzergrenadier Regt) ..Staff and Staff Company ..1st (mot) Battalion ..2nd (partially mot) Battalion ..1 (mot) Infantry Gun Company 200th Panzergrenadier Regt (from 2nd sardinien Panzergrenadier Regt) ..same as 155th Panzergrenadier Regt 361st Panzergrenadier Regt (from 853rd Sturm Regt) ..same as 155th Panzergrenadier Regt 1 Mixed Gebirgsjaeger Company 190th Panzer Battalion (from Sardinien Pz Battalion) ..Staff and Staff Company ..2 Pz companies (Pz IV) ..1 Maintenance Platoon ..3 Companies from Wege Command 242nd Army Sturmgeschuetz Battalion ..Staff and Staff Battery ..3 Sturmgeschuetz Batteries 1st Company, 190th Panzerjaeger Battalion 190th Artillery Regt (from Sardinien Artillery Regt) ..Staff and staff Battery ..1st (mot) leFH Battalion (105mm light field howitzer) ....Staff and Staff Battery ....3 (mot) 105mm leFH Batteries) ..2nd (mot) Mixed Heavy Battalion ....Staff and Staff Battery ....1 100mm K18 Battery ....2 150mm sFH Batteries ..3rd Battalion ....Staff and Staff Battery ....2 Self-propelled leFH Batteries (6 SdKfz 124 Wespe each) ....1 Self-propelled sFH Battery (6 sdKfz 165 6 Hummel) 2/5th Luftwaffe Flak Regt ..Staff ..3 Heavy Flak Batteries (88mm guns) ..2 Light Flak Batteries (20mm guns) ..1 (20 ton) Light Flak Column 190th Pioneer Battalion ..Staff ..3 (mot) Pioneer Companies 190th Divisional Service Units The Panzer inventory reported by Nafziger is exactly the same as the one found by Andreas. Peppe

I found the following OoB that is slightly different from that posted by Potential Italian Player: XIII Army Corps "Sabauda" Inf. Div. 203rd Coastal Div. 205th Coastal Div. XXX Army Corps "Calabria" Inf. Div. 204th Coastal Div. IV Coastal Brigade Mobile Reserve "Bari" Inf. Div. (the only one with vehicles and an artillery Regiment) "Nembo" Para Division XXXIII Coastal Brigade Armoured Group (Raggruppamento Corazzato) Source: Filippo Stefani "La storia della dottrina e degli ordinamenti dell'Esercito Italiano", 1985 Peppe

Yeah it reduces targeting time. Anyway some problems can arise if your spotter does not have LOS on the target when the arty starts firing at the end of the 7 minutes. In this case the arty starts firing on a random point on the map (even on your units!). So make sure your spotter acquires the target before the arty starts firing. Peppe [ October 11, 2003, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Romulus ]

Hey MrSpkr, sorry for the stupid question: where did you get the M13/39? I thought they were not featured in CMBB. I have played as Italy several times but I have never found the M13/39 in the unit selection screen. Thanks Peppe

@Gamax: I understood you were clearly joking about the surrender command. Yet it may sound offensive that you suggested to introduce a general low morale for all the Italians regardless to the specific unit or theatre. Even the Germans experienced low morale levels (leading to mass-surrenders) of certain units during the North-African campaign, as it has been shown even in this thread, but you asked this cut in the morale only for the Italians. This is the reason why many did not agree with your proposal. Hope the quarrel is now over. Regards Peppe

Ok, last try... Ok, let's build a battle, in which one side is, say, a battalion of Italians. Ok, now let's play around with dates and such... Second Example... let's change this to East Africa, same date. Now we're talking Keren. Whoops, here we have highly motivated, well led Italians. Global morale reduction does not fit here.

I have just looked at your email address. You should be from the "former" Yugoslavia, now known as Serbia and Montenegro. There is no need to go to the WW2 in order to find a mass-surrender by your country.

Hey guys, I would love to see the Carro P40 in action! Peppe

Hey guys, I would love to see the Carro P40 in action! Peppe

Yeah, that could be true but why did they all point out the good performance of the Italians when it is compared to the one of the Germans in North Africa? I mean, they don't say Italians and Germans are both tenacious etc...They just point out that the Italians, in certain cases, outclassed the Germans. If they actually wanted to look good to their superiors they could have praised both Italians and Germans. It would be better, wouldn't it? Anyway, I just quoted that text just to show not that the Italians were the most courageous (this would be a ridiculous assertion) but that even the Germans surrendered en masse even before the Italians. Peppe

Some people speak without knowing how things actually went. Let's read what was maintained by people who were involved in the North African theatre. Gen. Alexander: "Two things must be noted in the Axis defeat [in North Africa]: first of all, in the end when the battle was turning into a defeat for the Axis, the Italians did fight better than the Germans. The German morale had completely fallen down at the end of the [African] campaign. German well-armed units with many ammunitions and provisions SURRENDERED in strong defensive positions where they could have resisted for many days..." "...as it has alredy been seen, the Italian soldiers, commanded by Gen. Messe, kept tight and fought fiercely" I would like to remind some people who don't know history that the first to surrender in Tunisia were the Germans not the Italians! Gen. Alexander (on the London Gazette): "Italian officers and soldiers had showed all the time for 40 months, even when there was no more victory chance, that when they could not win they were anyway able to die heroically" Times (5/15/43): "...the Italians deserved the respect of the British troops thanks to their combativity" In the (British) official bulletin of the campaign of Tunisia it is stated: “The enemy counter-attacked several times bearing heavy losses. It was noticed that the Italians fought particularly well outclassing the Germans that were on the frontline with them" "On 12 May 1943 several en masse SURRENDERS by the Germans took place..." "Gen. Von Armin, Commander of the Army group surrendered to the commander of the 2° Gurkas while the Italians resisted for a longer time" I am sorry for the bad English of the quotations but I had to translate the text from Italian. I must thank all the people in this forum that do not give credit to some ridiculous stereotypes. Thanks Peppe

I would consider those thousands and thousands of young volunteers that enlisted the Italian Social Republic and kept fighting together with the Germans. Many chose that side (the Axis) not because they were deeply fascist but because they considered the Armistice as a dishonour for Italy because it represented a betrayal. Most volunteers were employed in the fight against the partisans but many were involved on the frontline together with the Germans against the Allied. Peppe

"The stories of (Italian) cowardice carried in the British press, like all things else in wartime, were designed for home consumption by civilians."Siege: Malta 1940-1943" by Ernle Bradford. The quotation was found on the site www.comandosupremo.com

The invasion of Malta would have been made mainly by Italians. The Italian Comando Supremo had prepared the plan (and the troops were doing a specific training) for the invasion but the Germans deemed that Malta was not strategically important. It seems that Rommel strongly advised Hitler not to support that operation (against the Italian will).

Will you upload those scenarios to the Scenario Depot? I played a couple of scenarios made by you (for the Italians) and enjoyed them very much. Thanks for your efforts. Peppe