GreenAsJade
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Posts posted by GreenAsJade
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Movie 20, 0:51-050
Here is the belated report.
As I mentioned, the main thing this turn was a pair of HTs rushing out to my right.
At this point, they can only be seen by my forward scout, and Bil may not be aware that I can see them.
I presume that he's experimenting with the idea that I don't have the West Spur well defended, and seeing how far he can get with a lightweight punch.
My Tame M10 arrived at the place I sent it to, and could see what I expected: the wheatfield where the HTs were heading. Except that they were not there: they are still stopped.
They must have dropped off scouts, who presumably right now are working their way towards my forward scout in that region... they must be amazingly close!?
(Please let them not have actually slipped past?!)
Well, since the HTs aren't there, for now, I need to keep dodging with this M10, lest more shells start falling around it, or it gets spotted by one of those overwatching tanks accidentally (as far as I know, nothing can see it, but it wouldn't take much of an adjustment on Bil's part to find a gap in the trees). So this turn is is scooting around again to get a view of the approach route of those HTs, similar to the view that the Bunker in that area has.
I'm also adjusting by mid/back field so that the AAHT can wizz around and massacre any force that comes over the West Spur far enough that it looses protection from the overwatching tanks.
If I continue that move, it will mean that the centre has to be held by the central M10s and assorted inf even if a fresh HT push comes there. That does not seem unreasonable at this point.
On the left side, Bil is concentrating on finding my Sniper, sending a unit down off the Tit hunting, and he has taken out one of men. The remaining guy is shooting back, but clearly his minutes are numbered.
The Sniper that I had watching the central road spotted another scout nearby, and opened fire on him. It seems that Bil is trying to get eyes behind The Spur, via sneaky footsoldiers this time.
Bil's JgPz pulled back, and disappeared after rotating left. Perhaps he's decided that indeed it needs a better line to take out the left bunker.
And there are more tank contacts in Bil's back line, back over on the right. This is starting to get towards the scary number of tanks that I was kind of expecting at the beginning.
Now we wait for Bil's return...
GaJ
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I think you should take it easy on the "Disappointed by".
You're looking at an AAR of a beta game on a beta map.
A more appropriate response would be "this is an awesome start, it's great how it matches the topo, I'm really looking forward to when you add the terracing. Have you thought of making it harder for tanks to move".
IMHO.
GaJ
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Movie 20, 0:51-0:50
I only have a brief moment to report in that Bil has begun half serious looking left hook (up my right flank towards Hill 109) with at least two HTs.
My forward right-centre scout spotted them.
My M10 who relocated in Tame was disappointed to find that there was nothing to see on the right side of the ridge - Bil's centre-right ridge hugging HTs really have stopped, short of the M10's view, and still no sign of inf accompanying them. So he's going to move once again, this time to get a better view of the area where the HTs are approaching.
I've sent the turn back to Bil, who's going on vacation, in case he can get another turn in before he goes.
More details later, sleep time now for me.
GaJ
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By definition, I don't want to apply it to QB maps, because then they aren't Q, they are laborious...
GaJ
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Sounds good for scenario design. Not for "Quick Battles".
GaJ
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"Bil is continuing to fling shells at the bunker"
Why not scram-say the men out of the bunker-hay? I would be long gone...
I toyed with the same idea myself. There are some pros and cons.
The biggest con is that the guys themselves are quite likely to get killed by shrapnel as they exit. In real life you would wait till a shell hit, then run while he's reloading. That is a pretty hard thing to time in CM.
And for what purpose would this risk be taken? As far as I know, the sure way to kill a bunker with a tank is a firing slot penetration. I'm not sure if the previous screenie I posted was clear (due to a black line running the whole way around the bunker at firing slot level), but the firing slot is at a worse-than-45-degrees angle away from the line to the JgPz. My figuring is that this gives Bil a pretty bad chance of hitting it. The guys inside the bunker are pretty comfortable - their alertness level rises when an HE shell hits, but when AP is pinging off the side, they relax. My guess is that the odds of breaking through the concrete are really pretty bad too.
I haven't tested this - I could set up a bunker on a map and keep firing a tank at it's side, but there's so little to lose that it's not worth the effort: there are only 4 mortar bearers in there.
Further, I suspect that due to the modelling of the bunker as an AFV, if/when Bil does crack it, then it will be "destroyed", so it can't be remanned. So abandonning the bunker and saving the men won't save the asset. (In reality, I would think that after a tank gets a firing slot hit and kills everyone inside, the next team could be sent in to man the weapon!!)
So with little to loose, and a chance of dieing in the attempt, it doesn't seem like worth the risking it!
If/when Bil repositions to improve the sight line to the firing slot, then I imagine they'll skedadle. Certainly, if I were in the reverse position, and had decided to shell the bunker, I'd be trying to get a line where the firing slot is on the line from the tank to the centre of the bunker - IE better than 45 degrees presentation.
GaJ
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The primary benefit of the autogenerated maps (as was stated earlier, and to return to it) was to _quickly_ create battles of a known perfectly playable quality and that neither player had seen before.
"Quickly" means without going into the editor.
While there are many "QB" maps in CMx2 (and kudos to the creators for them) they barely scratch the surface of this problem. This is because there are lots of maps because there are lots of parameters.
Suppose I like playing "Medium sized MEs in hilly terrain". There were an infinite number of quite reasonable maps of this nature with the old random generator. Wheras, I have _already_ run out of suitable candidates in the current pool, for the game-types that I like. And what's more, if you pick another one, get all ready to play, then you can discover that your oppo has already played this map! How do you prevent that from happening? Very difficult.
This, plus the problem of no limited force composition in the purchasing, makes having a "Quick Battle" a very laborious beast indeed, and one that involves negotiation with your opponent. Suppose you are about to have a "Quick battle" attack game. How many points is the attacker allowed to spend on armour? Which map will you use? If you are creating it yourself, where will the VLs be? How much will they be worth? The game may actually be won during the negotiation process!!
The autogenerate maps might not have looked pretty, but they were reasonable reliable in generating a balanced scenario, as were the old force composition rules. I don't know who or how those were put together but they really worked.
This is what is missing now - QB's are "laborious negotiation Bs"
GaJ
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The rest of the movie was really quite uneventful.
My Right Tit Sniper is under fire from up on the Tit. They didn't get a shot off at KW-man... they're just cowering in the grass.
KW-man has done a runner to the east, running away from the incoming spotting rounds...
(hi-res uploaded)
Some smoke shells were fired, I think by Bil's backline PzIVHs, into Tame. I guess they are smoking the location where my M10 was a couple of turns ago. I don't quite know why they didn't shoot at it if they saw it ... but maybe they were just out of LOS and something else spotted it. It has since moved, as you can see ... it wants to get a look at the HTs that have parked on the ridge west of Right Tit.
This smoke is interesting actually. From where it was, the place that the M10 could see was my right field - I was interdicting the HTs that never came over that way.
Since Bil is blocking this line of sight (or trying to ... the wind is really too much for smoke use), it implies that there's an attack coming on the far right flank - or he's faking a punch. It seems he doesn't really need to do any faking, since I can't see what he's up to anyhow!
So this doesn't change the "hang tight" orders for now, though the guys on Hill 109 are getting nervous.
Bil is continuing to fling shells at the bunker. This says "hah hah I have so many tanks and shells that I don't have to conserve them, and this Hill 130 position for my JgPz is unassailable". Both true, I'm sure!
GaJ
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Movie 19, 0:52-0:51
Well, my ATG survived one turn of shooting without coming under return fire.
The shots were:
1 miss, over the Elefant's head
3 direct hits, each right on the mantle. Talk about consistent shooting!
Note how that cunning Big Bad Bil had his soft rear flanks covered by the tree, too!
Towards the end of the turn the tank's AI started rotating it towards the ATG, so I will keep firing this turn - either the tank will return fire or run away.
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Well, whatever it is, it's not a whole lot of goodness for me the defender. I know for sure he's out there - there's no way his whole attack would have stalled this way - but I can't see him much at all. I said in an earlier post that I need to 'get eyes forwards', but actually I can't afford that luxury, because every pair of eyes is connected to a body and a gun that are needed for the final defence. So I have to hang tight...
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So, your gonna take the shot GaJ. Boldness can certainly pay off at times (along with a little luck), and it certainly makes for more drama for a cliff hanger. Will it hit? Will it not? Stay tuned all you Batfans out there to find out!
That is another important aspect, for sure ... the drama! Interestingly, I suspect that if this were not an AAR, but rather just a casual game, I might have held on, experimenting with the dice to see if I could hold out unspotted. But the outcome of that, if I get spotted, the likely case, is so boring that erring on the side of boldness, seemed the way to go in this case
And it seems Bil is adding to the drama, taking his time this turn! I had steeled myself to viewing a smoking wreck of a gun this morning ... but nothing. Is he licking his wounds (hah hah I wish) or plotting his terrible wrath on my revealed ATG...
edit: or both!?
GaJ
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I do, but Bil doesn't leave his armour in one place for long... (except, interestingly, the guys on Hill 130 ... he must feel really safe about them ... justifiably...). If the ATG is destroyed, then I will pretty much need to put an M10 over there...
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FWIW, I think that a statement of whether or not you would fire on an Elefant, is fine. As you say, the only context you gave was data I already presented, and you offered an opinion about the usefulness of hitting.
I like you logic. But... I sent the turn already having decided the other way, so now we will see! Why did I decide the other way: mostly because of the futilty and high likelihood of "saving" the ATG, only to have it spotted and mortared out of existence without ever firing at anything!
If it were only about the Elefant, or other units that I could see and predict my risk, I'd have held. But the high risk of many more eyes being out there that I don't know about and spotting that gun is really what makes the difference...
GaJ
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Some interesting things from testing.
At that sort of angle and distance, it takes 3 shots to hit. It seems that they always bounce off. At some point, the test Elefant decided to back off, and turned to face the gun as it reversed. At that time, it took a full frontal hit that caused "armour spalling" and the crew bailed!
Also, the Elefant took 15 minutes before it spotted the ATG (with the ATG not hiding, not firing) at that range and angle. Troops nearby without binos never spotted it. Troops with binos took about 10 minutes to spot it.
So either that JgPz got _very_ lucky, or maybe some other unit that had been looking for longer in Bil's force was the spotter?
Furthermore, the ATGs _never_ spotted the infantry that I placed in the grass and wheat in the vicinity of the test Elefant. Despite the infantry moving and hunting.
Well, what this confirms is once again I have to take the shot. There is never another time when I might get the jump, because I know that Bil has infantry around that area, so they will spot my gun before I spot them.
Who knows, maybe the Elefant will turn to face me and I get a lucky armour spall!
This is a really serious dent in the defence plan that I have though ... my midfield is set up, especially on the left, to spot infantry recon and deny it, forcing tanks to come forwards and face ATGs.
I'm being forced by the threat of unspotted inf spotting my ATGs to open prematurely with the ATGs.
I need to get more inf eyes up the field to counter this... and unless Bil has woken up to the concealment he has, he'll be wondering why I'm opening up now ... happily, I would imagine. But hopefully he doesn't wake up to the fact that he might be able to walk an inf force into SMI under my nose!!
GaJ
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(BTW, would you guys ever click through one of these shots to see it in greater res? As a test, I posted the above one ^^^ at flickr in high res (IE I didn't scale it down before uploading it). So if you click on it, then use action->view all sizes, you can see whatever size you like ... if I posted them that way, would it be any use? The main issue at my end is uploading 4x sized pictures!)
And so of course, we come to the biggest thing in this turn, foreshadowed in the above pic... I get another look at the Elefant with an ATG! (And interestingly, the M10 shown in that picture can't see the Elefant, there are trees in the way)
The Elefant has moved up from Left Tit to Right Tit, sitting on the road.
Wouldn't you know it, though ... once again, the angle is bad:
I was thinking there for a moment to open fire on the Elefant with the mortar on Hill 109, to get it to turn around and present a better side on view to the ATG.
However, I went and looked at the angles ... in fact, it's no improvement. If the Elefant is facing towards Hill 109, the angle that ATG gets on it is almost identical, just on it's other side.
So, it seems I'm left with little choice but to open fire. It's a shame, because this is exactly what Bil wants: to flush out my defensive positions - a better plan would be to have well hidden ATGs and good fire discipline.
In fact, I'm gonna go and do me some testing on spotting of ATGs before going any further, and see if the JgPz spot was a fluke, or the norm...
GaJ
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Continuing with 0:53-0:52 ...
... other small strange things that happened are that spotting rounds did not continue to fall on The Spur. This could be because Bil's timing got messed up with KW-guy being forced to slow down to dodge bullets, or it could be because he's decided to use a TRP and drop a line of fire on Sunken Road. Given I know he's using TRP+arty, this has got to be high on his target list ... that's why there's only one poor unit in there.
Then... the recon-rush HT on the right hand side of the ridge ... stopped! I can think of only two explanations for this
1) It wants to stop and take a good look down onto Hill 109 Ridge (the West Ridge) and see if it can spot any nasty ATGs before proceeding, and calling up its tank friends
2) It is overwatching some infantry scouting that I can't see
or I suppose both of the above. The second HT is now coming up to join it. Curious that it stopped ... did it drop off some men I wonder (maybe they looted the dead sniper!?). I get the feeling I am about to experience lots of snakes in the grass on this flank.
Whatever the case, it's been leading my M10 in Tame a merry dance. The turn before last he wizzed to the end of Tame to cut off the expected HT thrust towards Hill 109. This turn he repositioned to cut off this HT recon push ... which never came far enough for him to see! Next turn he'll reposition again.
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Are you crying out to _me_, in a particular, for a "tactical overlay"? What would that be, different to the various views I've already presented?
The zoom level 9 shot that I've been doing from time to time is supposed to show you the whole picture
Is the sniper dead or still kicking? If he manages to get out of this alive then send him to that KW scout from behind and shoot at him from point blank distance. That should negate sniper's injury, he he.
The sniper is still alive, though tired from all the sneaking around the place. It could be a challenge to get over to KW-man wihtout being spotted
by the overwatching Hill 130 beasts, but hey ... if Right KW-man can get all the way up one side without being spotted, maybe my sniper
could pull that off!!
(just got home from work, still absorbing the rest of the movie, which is once again "interesting")
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OK - what's the best way to refer to a "turn number" that will help consistency?
This turn that I'm about to report is the turn 0:53-0:52, the 18th movie.
BTW, there's so much detail to love about that screenshot. Check the lens of the gun-sight. And the flowers on the bush Awesome detail, that I never see except taking screenies for AARs
Anyway, here we go, Turn 0:53-0:52. the 18th movie .
I thought I'd start where I left off, looking at the Sunken Road MMG. Here is another picture telling this turn's tale, and also hoping to show you more geography.
Here we are sitting on top of The Spur, looking from my position to Bil's, more or less (basically south) at Right Tit.
The soldier I was hoping to shoot at disappeared (contact marker on Right Tit), but another HT came for me to shoot at - darn thing went and menaced my Sniper, as shown (oops, that should be a dotted line showing the HT firing on the Sniper, not solid, which I am using for movement). That sniper deserves to die anyhow... he's totally useless. He took 3 or 4 shots at the KW man missing every time, before being sent to ground by the HT fire. Maybe someone's earlier comment about injured snipers not being able to shoot is true!
The MMG opened fire, got some penetrations, but this time no red crosses. The HT ran away again though.
I turned trees off for clarity. You can see the dip of Sunken Road with the fallback foxhole there. Although there hasn't been any return fire on my MMG yet, it's probably time for him to run away about now! I don't think you get to fire twice on Bil's HTs without retribution, especially sitting as they are on the forwards slope of the Spur. There is no LOS from them to Hill 130, due only to trees blocking, but I'm pretty sure Bil could land 88s nearby from the Brummbar...
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GaJ, can your remaining left flank ATG see where sunken road area is? If not then you can only use left flank TD in case armor heads that way and overcomes your defences, right? How exposed can your central TD's be when they are needed either on the left or the right flank aka how safely can they reposition? Hope you would be able to utilize them when the need arises since those are your spine force.
It's surprisingly hard to show you guys stuff that's easy to see when you can move the map around. A couple of times I've almost resorted to movies ... maybe that will be the next thing.
Anyhow, here is another picture of last turn's action, showing how the ATG can see the main road, showing the HT that it shot this turn, plus the other related activities of this turn, all from the view of looking along The Spur ridgeline.
Hopefully this shows you that Sunken Road is down on Bil's side of The Spur, and that the ATG deliberately can't see there because if it could, it would have been exposed to Hill 130.
HTH
GaJ
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Well, the left flank ATG's lifespan is probably limited now that it's opened fire.
It's "keyhole" is really the centre road.
Defense of an armoured hook coming up my left flank is mostly down to the 3 TDs and numerous bazookas in the Left Approach Valley.
I had thought, when I was setting up, that I had good manoueverability to ge tthe 2 centre TDs over for this purpose, but events have uncovered two problems with that
1) The overwatch from Hill 130 can see, spottily, into the manouevering zone.
2) There's clearly a TRP in the crossroads of SMI, which is key to that sort of manouver as well (there were no spotting rounds for the artillery strike on my M10s).
This will make it more tricky, but they can either dodge the artillery and overwatch (note that it's been quite hard for the JgPz to land rounds on the bunker, which is instructive), or go the long way around the back of SMI.
GaJ
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An update on the overall view, with all this action ...
Looking at all at this, and asking myself "what is Bil's plan?", I think it looks like "he doesn't have one right now".
He's still doing recon, and he has forces on both sides of the main ridge. I'm pretty well expecting that when the "victory push" comes, it will be on one side or the other, to deny me the use of my whole force (which is spread across both sides).
So I have to hang tight and just keep hassling him each time he moves...
GaJ
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One of my favorites is the M5 Stuart which comes around a corner and gets drilled by an 88 from, say, a hundred yards. The projectile goes through one side of the turret, crosses the inside, then exits, having never detonated. No one was so much as scratched, but I don't recommend this novel ventilation approach for your tank! You can read about it at Tanks For The Memories.
And it's accurately modelled in CMAK. I had numerous ventilated Stuarts while playing that...
GaJ
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Meanwhile, there's let more action over on the right flank. Large explosions continue to fall in an apparently-undirectid fashion on Hill 109.
It's not artillery, but I can't see what's firing it. It's making big craters, so it seems like it's the Elefant or a Brummbar or similar. So far, no damage sustained. I have to think that right-KW-guy has not got his eyes over the ridge yet, and Bil thinks that I have more defences on this spot. Yay, long may that last.
Interestingly, what I thought was going to be an HT rush on Hill 109 seems to have veered to the north and is coming madly up the west side of the main ridge.
This looks like more "recon by death", hunting for the ATGs that are covering this side of the field. What's actually waiting for this approach is "snakes in the grass" on that side of the ridge. If the HT makes it past those as far as the field of fire of the Hill 128 ATG, I'll probably use that to take it out.
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Just in the nick of time (before the artillery gets to them) the MMG on Sunken Road (in the upper middle of the picture in the previous post) finally got a chance to do it's job, making life hard for operations on Right Tit:
I got a couple of satisfying red crosses on that HT, which pulled back fast.
Then, at the close of the turn, some scouting infantry appeared through the dust of the nearby artillery shell ...
... I hope I get a shot at them before they duck into the grass!
ALLIED : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant
in Combat Mission Fortress Italy
Posted
Actually, he's pretty wild, now that his prey didn't show up, so he's heading into the bush