GreenAsJade
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Posts posted by GreenAsJade
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OK. The last two things are Obstacles and Cover/Concealement.
Bil doesn't have any significant obstacles in his way. Darn it. Initially I was thinking about obstacling up the main road, but its just too expensive. I'd rather spend the money on an ATG to kill a tank that comes up the centre line, and can maybe kill some other stuff too, than on HedgeHogs (400pts for 10 of them!) or Mines that Bil can easily drive around.
Cover: well, there's again stuff all natural cover. The whole map is covered by waving grasses and scattered trees. Of course, the buildings are cover, but not the sort I want to be thinking about in the early game.
Sunken road is actually a natural sort of trench:
If I had spare men to pop in there and try to hold off Bil's assault on this VL, it would be fun. But (although I am yet to finalise setup) I think this is not going to be the case.
It's a "forward slope", so any guys in there are subject to fire from Bil's early aquired territory ... I think I'd rather save them for when he pops over the top.
In terms of concealment, the combination of scattered trees and grass might serve me OK ... not as good as some thick undergrowth or forests, but not "worthless".
GaJ
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Or maybe it's because I got whupped but was lucky enough to have record of what the Bad Guy was thinking while he whupped me to learn from
GaJ
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The next thing to consider is "Key Territory".
This picture shows early/mid game key territory:
As already mentioned, The Tits will be an important site until they are wiped out
After that, the two diagonal ridgelines (172-153 and 126-109) hold the key to defense.
In the West, if Bill can take that ridge, then the can push up in a way that's hard to oppose into Santa Maria.
In the East, the diagonal ridge is not only a VL, but also a site that can control the Spur and Centre attacks by him.
I haven't marked the Spur as Key because I don't think I can hold it. Rather, as forces swarm over it victoriously, I'm hoping the reverse side of it can be a kill zone.
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I didn't describe the middle-green lines in the Observation picture. These show that:
- From Hill 109, I can cover the West Slope of Left Tit and have another view on any forces straying west on the main road. Unfortunately, the view into Bil's back right corner from there isn't so great. That's what Left Tit is so important for.
- From Sunken Road I can see into the deep approach valley I've been talking about, and also onto the slopes of Right Tit. I'm thinking this will be important for supporting the scout on Right Tit hold out for as long as possible.
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If he's interested in attacking me on the East Side, then it seems that his main force will come down through the valley there, then either try to take the Spur/SunkenRoad VL, or go around the flank and press up behind.
On the opposite side, the terrain appears a lot less attractive for a careful attack: a far right flank (from my point of view) press could come, as an assault on the west ridge VLs and on to the town.
If we return to Observation and Lines of Fire, we will see that this looks like the tough one.
As you can see, I can keyhole ATGs and/or HMGs (dark green observation lines) that cover this approach reasonably well.
Similarly, I have a reasonable chance of defending the main thrust as it reaches the road/spur junction, from the 172/153 ridge (the other dark green lines). These ATG/HMGs can actually achieve a keyhole (using trees) that appears to shield them from Bil's likely Hill 130 shelling station.
When you look at it this way, the assault on the Spur (Hill 146/Sunken Road) looks the most appealing for Bil.
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Next, I will talk about the his approaches that I considered:
First, in the middle, it seems indisputable that he has to try to take the Titss off me, either before, or along with, any other initial manoeuvres. I think he'd rather have me off there before showing me much more.
From there, he can actually proceed down the road quite safely for quite some distance. Although you might think that this central ridge is exposed to 'everywhere on the map', it's not actually true. The combination of trees along the edge, and quick fall away of the slope, means that especially on the east side of the road (Right Tit side) it will be difficult for me to hamper an armoured push there. (If he strays onto the west side of the road, I can see him from my right flank forward observation post, and I may even consider an ATG up front with this as part of it's mission, though I don't exactly have ATGs to spare!).
On the top of the picture, to the East, he will clearly come and take a look from Hill 130. There is an impressive view from there right up the guys on Hill 153...
It means I have to be careful with what I put over on Hill 153, both in terms of defending the VL, and looking back to the centre.
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OK - so when you see something that works, you use it, right? So last game Bil showed us how he does something he was trained to do: a sequence of analysis. It's the sort of thing that perhaps we all do bits and pieces of informally, but we could all maybe benefit from a bit of discipline.
So here we go: here are the Observation Points and Firing Lines that I pored over during force selection:
First, in brightest green, you can see the initial observation posts that I considered.
Obviously, the Tits are key observation points - forwards scouting positions.
From these, I can easily see into Bil's back left and right corners. However, sitting on top of Left Tit, there are some obscured zones, shown by black lines. These are due to the shape of the land:
... this is looking towards Bils back right corner from my point of view... you can see, in the right foreround of the picture that the ground slopes away so quickly that someone standing on top can't see the approach below.
Right Tit is not quite so badly shaped, but I've indicated the viewpoints that I will likely choose: sitting towards the back, so that I can see into the deep valley on Bil's left flank, and over towards Hills 130 and 132, but shielded from forces that might be assaulting from the centre south
There is one more point that the scenario designer kindly gave me as forward observation, over on my right flank:
If forces approaching the Tits carelessly stray too far west, they will be spotted from here. I don't actually think they will do that (more on this later) but good to have eyes on it. As you can see, these guys can see if someone is trying to sneak up the blind spot of the Left Tit, anyhow, which is good. And they can also see (not shown) somewhat into Bil's back right corner, though the thicker trees there mean that this lookout doesn't see there as well as the Left Tit guy will.
For orientation, just to confirm, the above three screenies are looking along the bright green lines in the overview.
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Ha - after force selection it dropped me out to save a file and send to Bil.
So ... I have selected forces and the game is in Bil's hands right now.
That gives me a chance to chat more about what I saw... (coming up).
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OK - so I have about 2-3 hours remaining of my weekend, and I have a force selection! ... after doing a lot of looking at the map, trial setups, that I'll have to tell you all about later (time being so short, and a final setup still to be done).
The thing that I was astonished by is how far 3000 points dont go
You look at this map and come up with all sorts of excellent plans for defense - a platoon of M10's here, another one there, some obstacles and mines, and interlocking HMGs of course, with ATGs looking out from keyholes ...
... then you go and see how much that's gonna cost and ... whoa... sticker shock!!!
So here is the high level breakdown that I've chosen, which is basically "a minumum of things that you need":
- 1 platoon M10s (4 tanks).
- 1 company 76mm ATG (4 guns)
(note - this is 8 76mm guns vs his potential company of armour - 15-20 tanks!)
- 1 company (+) of Rangers. 3 platoons, each with 2 MMGs and a bazooka
- 3 HMG bunkers
- depleted "platoons" of foxholes & wire (depleted to enable final purchases of HMG & mortars)
That's the main makeup. I supplemented with 4x81mm mortar (on board), 3x HMG, and some snipers and scouts.
That's what you can afford for 3200 points.
At a high level:
- scouts/snipers to figure where he's coming from
- wire and watching MMGs to slow the initial take of the Tits (surely he must take them first )
- ATGs (keyholed through the trees) and HMG bunkers to face off the initial onslaught after the Tits are taken
- M10s as mobile force to respond to where his tanks are breaking through ATG firing lanes
- Rangers & mortars, and floating HMGs to try to keep infantry in check
Off to convert the initial setup experiments into a final setup...
GaJ
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I think that TRP and shell is gamey. Who wants to watch that?
What we want here is a battle of forces on the ground, locked in mortal combat, looking each other in the eye ... the Eye of the Elefant!
GaJ
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Roger - overhead views every turn.
I think I mentioned that I will be done by the end of the weekend. That hasn't changed.
GaJ
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I am unconstrained, except to not be too gamey or boring I guess.
He is brining one Elefant and no Tigers or Panthers. No other constraints.
GaJ
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You guys' description of satchel charge throwing matches my own experience - a shame eh.
Those pioneers/rangers look so tempting as part of the anti-tank defense. The terrain is just so open that I don't know if they'll get close enough to tanks to use them.
So here's the overall game plan:
- Be mobile. Because anything sitting still will get blasted by Brummbars etc or trampled by Elefants. This means A minimum of trenches, foxholes etc. Probably I will get some of these to help MGs survive (actually, bunkers!), but generally I expect units in fortifications to get blown out of them fairly quickly. If possible, avoid taking on a serious armoured push head-on, early: be mobile enough to flow around it, hassle it's flanks, and encourage it to head in the direction of a back line of ATGs and tank hunters.
- Expect a strong armoured push early on. While what we've seen from Bil is that he really values intel/recon ... but there's nothing that says he has to do that with infantry this time. He has so many points that he may start with a "wave of armoured recon" to see if he can break through somewhere. Imagine the grief - a platoon of Panzers and Brumbars charging through a forwards infantry screen and blowing up things in my back line in the first minutes! This means that the forwards lines of the defences need to be ready to deny armour as well as infantry - the usual "set up forward sniping units that shoot scouts to slow him down then fall back" won't be enough.
- Try to deny the ridgeline with obstacles. Partly because this is a significant VL, so I have to put effort into retaining it, but also because it makes sense. If he can't manoever in the middle, then he has to chose one side or the other ... or split his forces. Any option I'm denying him, any hard choice he is confronted with has to help
I guess this is about it for "thinking out loud". Now I have to go and chose and plot. I'll try to get done over the weekend, maybe see you all on Monday.
GaJ
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Oh man, that is a nice tip, if true. I have never used that order
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It's a good question.
First, I'm not getting too wound up about it. It is just one unit, and there are 9 VLs, so worst comes to the worst, I could just let it have the VL it choses
It's worth about 350pts, IIRC, out of 5000+.
So there are bigger problems to worry about: heaps of other tanks - it's not even 10% of the problem.
However, as you say - staying clear of the it will be important.
Which means that I need to be substantially nimble. I'm trying to figure a defence that can sting the first forces that make contact with it, then fade, so that the following push after the recon doesn't have anything to bite into.
The provisions I can make to get rid of the Elefant are:
- Mines and obstacles. These need a judicious plan that works in with the rest of the defenses - they can't be just about the Elefant. But I'm almost certainly going to throw some of these out and hope to get lucky.
- Aircover. I will bring one Fighter Bomber. I think I'll have a call-in delay of about 10mins, so the chances of nailing the elefant with this are not great, but with so many points available for Bil on armour I figure that surely at least one tank will be in the radius of the strike when it arrives
It's worth 300 or so points to play with that.- Many dudes with Bazookas, to try to be able to tackle all of his armour from side shots etc. Unfortunately, this map is an absolute bear for concealment: there isn't any. So I'm still toying with how much to invest in this. But these can form a good part of "nimble defense".
By the way, can anyone tell me - can infantry throw satchel charges at other infantry, area-fire style? I've been looking with some enthusiasm at Rangers, who come with plenty of Thompsons and Zooks and Satchels. The satchels, good if I can get close to tanks, would be even better value if they are useful for inf as well, but haven't tried that before. I may have to experiment with that.
I do wish there was more concealment on the map, that's for sure!
GaJ
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Yes. And yet, there were certain elements that are different this time around. The US attacked at night, well supported by artillery. Bil doesn't strike me as a user-of-artillery, and he's attacking in the day time.
But perhaps most importantly, Bil's attack can be expected to be largely an armoured affair, wheras the original attack was inf+artillery...
I think it would be fascinating to come back to this map with an infantry battle, but such is not our story this time...
GaJ
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A spot of intel to add: the approaching German forces have an Elefant with them, and maybe some Brumbars. No Tigers or Panthers have been spotted...
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I agree that this new VL plan is quite demanding. I do actually have setup zones coincident with the Left and Right Tit VLs, where I can setup lookout posts.
No-one can seriously be thinking that I will defend these though, so they are basically "free points" for Bil, I think. The same might be said of my back VL (Infante) ... arguably, if I defend well, Bill might not get there. We'll see about that eh?
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Here it is: the final map is in:
As you can see - I didn't get away with my ambit claim of three VLs way at the back of the map - rather I have to try to keep possession of as much critical territory on the whole map as possible!
I'll post annotations to show the relative value of these VLs shortly...
GaJ
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I thought I get would this going, as a way of saying "It's now officially on".
This means that we'll be starting to talk about specifics in the AAR threads, so we need intel not to leak from one to the other. But we love having your company in them!
It's a bit of a grey line with a tough call, because we definitely enjoy banter about what is happening (other than just being goaded to ATTACK
) so please use sensible judgement.It seems good to ask questions and get us to talk about our thoughts and plans.
But the same question could be good or bad. "How are you planning to defend" is clearly fine. "What are you thinking about that tough-to-defend left flank" sounds OK: but not if Bil has just identified that the left flank is weak and is planning a press there. For example, Steiner's ongoing pressure on me to check out the centre last battle appeared way over the line, given that this is where Bil was massing (though Steiner claims he didn't read Bils threads).
Also, commentary is good, but specifics are bad. "I can say that your plan looks like it will succeed - well done" is once again way over the line. How can you possibly say that... how can it mean anything other than "I am telling you that your guesses about the oppo are good ones"? Don't say stuff like that
And do remember that Bil and I will be back to read this thread after the battle is done - we're fascinated by your observations and opinions. So be a bit nice eh?
GaJ
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It is a little unclear to me if you are attacking or defending... I thought you were attacking based on your opening remarks but some of the banter makes it seem like you are defending.
Defending? Never defend! Just ATTACK!
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For this one remember: "He who defends everything, defends nothing."
Yes for sure! All that real-estate between him that the VLs: the purpose of that is purely for traps and slowing him down. He can have it, otherwise.
Similarly, it does seem wise to have a plan to hold 2 out of 3 VLs as "a good outcome" and be ready to surrender one of them. Which one will likely depend on the attack, of course.
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VL location uncertainty aside, here are some thoughts.
What I know now about Bil (unless he decides to suddenly change style to throw me off) is that he's going to start with recon across the whole front, and he doesn't have a specific plan of attack... what he does will depend on what he finds.
Seems pretty basic and simple eh? But it makes me think about this: I can control what he finds, so does that mean I can control what he does? And if I can, what would I like it to be?
On the assumption of lots of Tigers, Panthers and an Elefant, I need these things to keep bumping into death-by-surprise. A pitched armour battle doesn't sound like a good idea at all, except if I can get his beasts up close. That will have to be later in the battle, as he's trying to take the VLs.
Earlier in the battle, I need decent concentrations of anti-tank mines, and ways to persuade him to drive over them, plus random surprises from ATGs and Shreks.
I can't see much reason for him to be bringing infantry at all. Maybe he needs a few platoons for recon, and a bunch to take the Central Objective, which is all buildings.
One thing that I'm aware of is that he is going to have a huge force, and I can't rely on him not splitting it. A lot was made, last battle, about "not splitting your force", but actually Bil split his force last game, and also in the first game I played against him. It's quite possible he'll do so again in this battle. It must be tempting to bring a force up each side of the map.
I'm not sure what to make of the central ridge. While in theory you'd think that forces there will be "most exposed", actually the way that the trees come up to the road as it slopes away means that there it's hard to get a look from anywhere on the map to that ridgeline.
Here is what it looks like from the attacker's point of view, after moving along the road past Right Tit:
... basically, nothing out there can see you, nothing can look down on you.
Moving along, it's not till you get to the Sunken Road intersection that the defender has places that might see you:
Food for thought. It's my bedtime. I think that at this early stage I'd like to invite all your thoughts and suggestions. As soon as the battle gets going, you're not allowed to make suggestions due to intel leak etc ... but right now I can't see why you shouldn't.
What do you all think?
GaJ
ALLIED : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant
in Combat Mission Fortress Italy
Posted
It's now my turn to setup. I thought you might like to see my marshalled forces:
I have to say it doesn't look like a lot to hold off up to a company of tanks plus assorted infantry.
There are a few aspects of these guys worth pointing out.
Perhaps the first is that I've been most worried about the sheer bulk of armour that Bil can bring. I don't have any intel about the makeup of his force in terms of armour vs infantry. Therefore, I've "erred" on the side of "try to make sure you can deal with as much armour as possible, and if he's inf-heavy instead, just cope with it".
Being worried about armour led me to buy 76mm ATGs and M10s. I was looking for any edge in "gaining some certainty about a tank kill" that I could. The ATGs have the benefit of having a bunch of HE in case I end up being swarmed with infantry instead of tanks.
M10's: a very interesting dilemma to choose them instead of Sherms. Because there were no 76mm Sherms available, I felt should go with the edge in gun despite the lack of MG and top armour. I need to be aware of keeping them moving out of artillery's way.
The Rangers were attractive because they come with very cheap MMGs and bazookas... and they have Tommy Guns as well. This "ready for anything" kit looks good for handling approaching infantry at range, and dealing with either armour or infantry close in.
The HMG bunkers were another very interesting dilemma. Of course, if I could have had ATG bunkers, I'd have loved that, but for some reason they are not available. The intention is to have something that is
- interdicting infantry advance
- being a real nuisance to get rid of, forcing tanks to have to come to a location
where I have a good shot at them
In the cold light of morning, looking at this, I think I would go for a Stuart instead of one of these, but there's no looking back now. Stuarts felt like expensive tank-fodder, knowing that Elefants, JpZs and goodness knows what is coming..
It's amazing how little fortification I could afford. That wire will go to the Tit's, mostly. The foxholes are intended for the Tit's and also random MG locations.
Later...