Mad Russian

Double Post. MR

Interesting. The Organizational chart, I have for the 16th Heavy Panzer Division, does not show a JgPz Bn as you say. So, the apparent localization of all the combat AFV's in the Panzer Bn seems to have been the direction the Germans were going. It's interesting that this is the very first time I ever remember seeing an organizational chart with the term Heavy on it though. Also, the I and II battalions were to be organized on 66 tank TO&E's but the III battalion (StuG) was to be organized on a 42 vehicle TO&E. Your comment: A few went in I battalion to replace missing IVs. Doesn't make much sense though since the I Bn was always the Panther Bn. Are you saying they put StuG's in that Bn to replace PzV's or are you talking about II Bn? Also, the numbers I quoted from Jentz are for authorized strengths. Not all Panzer Divisions were authorized the same number of tanks per their battalions. So then, would a Panzer Division with an authorized strength like MR [ June 23, 2007, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Mad Russian ]

Okay, here is what I see so far. Heavy appears to have not been a mistake or mis-identified. Although this is the first time I ever remember seeing a TO&E for a Panzer Division marked as such. Michael Kenny in his post seems to have it correct. A Heavy Panzer Division seems to be one with three panzer battalions instead of two. The third battalion seems to be made up of StuG of some sort. I went to everyones all time encyclodedia for the answers I was looking for. "Panzer Truppen,,,Volume 2: 1943-1945" by Thomas Jentz. Here I DO NOT find a TO&E marked as schwere. What I do find are the units themselves. When going back in looking at the original document it clearly shows a third panzer battalion and is marked as a StuG unit. So, with that in mind off in to Panzer Truppen I went. Here is what I found. There were a select number of Panzer Divisions that show by their strength charts to have StuG's in the division, as well as tanks that you expect, both Panthers and PzIV's. As you might expect 16th Panzer Division is one of those. From 1943 on, here are the others: December 1943 16th Panzer Division shows to have 98 PzIV(lg), 42 StuG, 12 PzBef. Nothing unusual there. In fact, nothing unusual starts taking place until the Panthers start arriving. On page 165 for the first time I find that there are listing for three battalions in Panzer Divisions beyond the 1940 break up of the divisions to form more. Here is the information on the Heavy Panzer Divisions: 2nd Panzer was authorized 28 StuG, 30 PzIV and 60 PzV. 9th Panzer was authorized 14 StuG, 30 PzIV and 60 PzV. 116th Panzer was authorized 14 StuG, 30 PzIV and 60 PzV. 2nd SS Panzer Division was was authorized 28 StuG, 30 PzIV and 60 PzV. 9th SS Panzer Division was was authorized 28 StuG, 30 PzIV and 60 PzV. At first I thought this was an attempt to just fill the PzIV battalion with StuG's to make up the difference between the 30 PzIV's and 60 PzV's in the divisions, and that it was common practice. But it wasn't. The only other Panzer Division listed on this list of refitting Panzesr Divisions for 3 November 1944 that had 60 PzV's was the 11th. All the others were only authorized 34 PzIV's and 38 PzV's. Making the "normal" Panzer Division being refitted a total of 72 AFV's, whereas 2nd Panzer Division for instance had an authorized total of 90 tanks and 28 assault guns, for an overall total of 118 AFV's. Again, for June 1944(page 187), 2nd SS Panzer Division shows a strength of 13 StuG, 78 PzIV(lg), 79 PzV. The StuG's are not being used to offset a lack of PzIV's. At the same time, 9th SS Panzer Division shows a strength of 40 StuG, 46 PzIV(lg), 79 PzV. This could show the StuG's as being used as tank replacements. In August(page 194) PG Division shows to have only 37 StuG's and no tanks the 15th PG Division shows 36 PzIV's and no StuG's. It's quite obvious that the Germans were using StuG's for replacements of tanks. The question is did they actively add a StuG battalion to certain divisions to make them Heavy? Page 202 shows that there were 598 StuG's, 503 PzIV, 471 PzV and 123 PzVI available on 15 Decemeber for the Wacht am Rhein offensive. Obviously StuG's played a big part in German TO&E's by late 1944. Units equipped with StuG's, Panzer IV's and Panzer V's all at the same time seem to be fairly rare though. The Strength of Panzer Units in the East chart on page 205 shows only one panzer unit with all three. That was the 5th SS Wiking. On page 206, August 1944, he shows the III Bn of Panzer Division "Hermann Goering" as being equipped with 31 JPIV and apparently Pz Bn I missing from the division. Possibly for refit. The last entry for 16th Panzer Division I found was on page 228 with a TO&E. It shows only 2 tank battalions and a mix of Panzer IV's, V's and StuG's. So, I'm not sure if the Germans tried somewhere in there to actually make heayy Panzer Divisions or not. MR

Have you tried the HSG meeting engagements? They can be found here: HSG Scenarios These are based on actual battles. MR MR

You need to try some of the HSG scenario ME's then. The later ones are specifically designed to avoid flag rushing. In HSG KH Blood Road for instance, there are 12 flags on the map. Flag rush all you like in that scenario. You are still going to have to fight to control the map and all of those flags are not set to allow for instant domination. Rushing towards those in the open can get you killed quickly. The main issue with flag rushing should be a QB issue a well versed game designer can take that out of a premade scenario for the most part. MR

Was this in addition to its normal 2-battalions of tanks, or were they attached to make up for losses in the panzer regiment? </font>

Serious enough to have battle maps. To have TO&E charts for the 16th Infantry Division in 1939/1940, Panzer Division in 1941 and Panzer Division again in 1943/45. It lists the Knight's Cross winners by divisional unit. It lists all levels of Knight's Cross winners as well as the recipients of the German Cross in Gold. I bought the book in the early 1970's, between 1970 and 1974. Most likely in either 1972 or 1973, there is no telling when the book was published since it doesn't have a publication date in it. The ISBN number on it is: 3-7909-0075-3 It was one of those books that was done in both English and German. Quite a few pictures all with German/English captions. The name of the book is "Die 16 Panzer-Division 1938-1945" by Gunter Schmitz. One possible explanation now that I think about it is that the Germans may have been referring to the Panzer Divisions as heavy and the PG Divisions as light. But again, I've never seen that anywhere. The title of the Organizational Chart on page 170 is listed like this: 16 Panzer Division (schwere) (von der ublichen Gliederung abweichend) 1943/45 The book has six seperate maps, each showing movement and combats for a period of time. These have been draw on what look like OKW/OKH situtational maps like those found in back of the volumes of, "Die Geheimen Tagesgesberichte der Deutschen Wehrmachtfuhrung im Zweiten Weltkrieig 1939-1945". There are movement/battle location maps for France 1940, Balkans 1941, Russia 1941, Russia 1942, Italy 1943 and East Front 1944/45. At the time, I believe, it was a serious study on the division, although one made mainly in photographs. MR [ June 18, 2007, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: Mad Russian ]

If it was it certainly was a serious typo. It was listed in more than one place as a Heavy Panzer Division. Including the TO&E chart that is in the book. I was expecting the comment to be a typo when I saw it the first time. But it's in more than one place. The 16th Panzer Division had a battalion(2nd) of JadgPanthers attached to it's Panzer Regiment. I'm wondering if that has anything to do with it. It was also one of only a half dozen Panzer Divisions that received the Puma. All the others were elite formations. That made me wonder if there was a Heavy TO&E that the Germans were working on late in the war. This is the first time I've ever run across this so I don't really know. MR

I just ran across a German source book today that was discussing the 16th Panzer Division as being a Heavy Panzer Division. This is the first time I can remember seeing this term applied to a German Panzer Division. I know the Americans had Heavy Armored Divisions but they were the only ones I was aware of. Does anyone have an idea what would make Heavy Panzer Division different from any others? MR

Iron Dukes scenario Tebourba Engagement is loaded with Grant/Lee's. And it is an outstanding scenario as well. It can be found on The Scenario Depot II. MR

I have a scenario that was specifically designed to be played by 3 players. HSG N A Polish Finish MP. You can find it here: HSG N A Polish Finish It was developed from the ground up as a 3 player game and has been playtested and balanced for that mode of play. Enjoy. MR

KOTH2 setups have been sent out. There are 2 groups of gamers. All of you are playing the same 3 scenarios. Each of the 2 different groups of gamers has it's own password that I assigned!!! That way if we have a gamer drop we know what the password is to continue game play without interruption or having to start over. If your did not receive a setup or password email and your name is on this list let me know. The_Enigma Antoni Chmielowski (FGM) Narcosis Ken F pplci Von Schwendeman Acre donshafer Mixmaster Kovan Proniakin RocketMan sudowudo herroberst Alexian WeAgs2 voland Easymeat Lord Bane Odies CEV Gunner Diesel Taylor BitterPill Sphinx jdsu Herr Schacht GJK raz_atoth Bitchin Frizzie Seydlitz Von Staudt Andre Schwerpunkt Leto Standartenfuhrer Siberian Heat Kineas Airbornebob MeatEtr Andrew Kulin Bannon DC Twisted Leader WarHammer11A dynoryder mcwkjoyce Mangus2000 Forseti BigDuke6 Bertram Huzaar Shoot Me I Explode BertBlitzkrieg (FGM) If you entered the tournament and your name is not on this list let me know. If you would still like to play I'm taking alternates. After round 1 I may well have an option where those players can continue to play the tournament scenarios for the underdogs, those that have been knocked out of the tournament. If there is an interest. Good Luck and Good Hunting. MR

KOTH2 setups have been sent out. There are 2 groups of gamers. All of you are playing the same 3 scenarios. Each of the 2 different groups of gamers has it's own password that I assigned!!! That way if we have a gamer drop we know what the password is to continue game play without interruption or having to start over. If your did not receive a setup or password email and your name is on this list let me know. The_Enigma Antoni Chmielowski (FGM) Narcosis Ken F pplci Von Schwendeman Acre donshafer Mixmaster Kovan Proniakin RocketMan sudowudo herroberst Alexian WeAgs2 voland Easymeat Lord Bane Odies CEV Gunner Diesel Taylor BitterPill Sphinx jdsu Herr Schacht GJK raz_atoth Bitchin Frizzie Seydlitz Von Staudt Andre Schwerpunkt Leto Standartenfuhrer Siberian Heat Kineas Airbornebob MeatEtr Andrew Kulin Bannon DC Twisted Leader WarHammer11A dynoryder mcwkjoyce Mangus2000 Forseti BigDuke6 Bertram Huzaar Shoot Me I Explode BertBlitzkrieg (FGM) If you entered the tournament and your name is not on this list let me know. If you would still like to play I'm taking alternates. After round 1 I may well have an option where those players can continue to play the tournament scenarios for the underdogs, those that have been knocked out of the tournament. If there is an interest. Good Luck and Good Hunting. MR

Start date for the tournament is June 6th. Finish date is when we get done. Rounds are roughly 3 months. Good Hunting. MR

Where did you send it? What was the topic of the email? You need to send it to: sro_cm@yahoo.com I have nothing from you yet. Did you get my email to you? Good Hunting. MR

I don't see your name on the list. I have been sending out replies. I'll need your information. Send it to me again. If I don't hear from you by this time tomorrow I'll post it here. Good Hunting. MR

The final deadline for getting into the tournament is midnight June 5th...wherever you are in the world. The pairings and scenarios go out on June 6th. Good Hunting. MR

The scenarios will be no more than 5 companies on a side in rounds 1 and 2. Most maps are not larger than medium but some may make it to large. You will play 3 scenarios the highest percentage score will advance. If that is a tie then the highest raw score will advance. The 3 scenarios are all against the same player. You need to sign up by Midnight June 5th. Good Hunting. MR

The list of opponents for KOTH 2 to date is as follows in no particular order: Carl "The Enigma Antoni Chmielowski Mark Anthony" Ken Fedoroff andrew hunter Mark Schwendeman Vlado Kovacevic Don Shafer Mike Ward Konrad Van Zyl Steve T. Mark Oakley mick. Victor Nelson Alexian Steve Turn Michael McDonald Gene A Will George Scott John Scot Alexander dieseltaylor David Hillhouse Greg Vietz James Lim Philip N. Saliba Gary Krockover You will notice that there are incomplete names etc...on this list. Your name appears here how you sent it to me...I'll be getting an updated list out this weekend so we can begin to get ready to start this up. Watch your emails for my message to you. Sign ups are still open through US midnight Central Time June 5th. Sign up by emailing me at: sro_cm@yahoo.com MR

The list of opponents for KOTH 2 to date is as follows in no particular order: Carl "The Enigma Antoni Chmielowski Mark Anthony" Ken Fedoroff andrew hunter Mark Schwendeman Vlado Kovacevic Don Shafer Mike Ward Konrad Van Zyl Steve T. Mark Oakley mick. Victor Nelson Alexian Steve Turn Michael McDonald Gene A Will George Scott John Scot Alexander dieseltaylor David Hillhouse Greg Vietz James Lim Philip N. Saliba Gary Krockover You will notice that there are incomplete names etc...on this list. Your name appears here how you sent it to me...I'll be getting an updated list out this weekend so we can begin to get ready to start this up. Watch your emails for my message to you. Sign ups are still open through US midnight Central Time June 5th. Sign up by emailing me at: sro_cm@yahoo.com MR

The tournament will use a 3 scenario per round format. The winner of those 3 scenarios by total point total will advance to the next round. The sign up is going well. Sign up now to play some specially designed scenarios for the tournament by some of CM's best scenario designers.... Fight with King Tigers! Or Canadian Infantry! Will it be a JS-2's or a BT-2 that carries the day? Can you close the Ring of Fire? Or will the Soviet player change history on you? Come join in the tournament and see for yourself. MR

The tournament will use a 3 scenario per round format. The winner of those 3 scenarios by total point total will advance to the next round. The sign up is going well. Sign up now to play some specially designed scenarios for the tournament by some of CM's best scenario designers.... Fight with King Tigers! Or Canadian Infantry! Will it be a JS-2's or a BT-2 that carries the day? Can you close the Ring of Fire? Or will the Soviet player change history on you? Come join in the tournament and see for yourself. MR

Too often God's hand goes unnoticed in things. It's a little hard to miss here. Steve

Some of you may remember when I came and asked for prayers for the Grace family. Tom Grace, Matthew's father, is an avid CM gamer that uses Warmonger for his handle. Here is an update for that situation from an email I just got from Tom today. With the help of Steve, the HSG members and CM members on the battle front CM forum a call for prayer for Matthew went around the world. We literally kept a map with pins marking the locations on the world where people were praying for Matt. Matt not only did not die but he began to improve. In August 2005 the doctors finally brought him back to see what was happening. The tumor was shrinking!!! All treatments stopped in January 2006 but even so the tumor continues to shrink. While he is still a quad, blind and requires a vent, he is slowly regaining movement to the amazement of all. He is going to school full time with a 3.75 grade point average. We have a long way to go and we are not out of the woods but things look better than those grim days of 2004/ 2005. There is obviously a continued need for prayer for Matthew and the Grace family. CM has brought us together and the community makes us stronger. Thanks for your support and prayers of this family. I know they appreciate you. Steve

Some of you may remember when I came and asked for prayers for the Grace family. Tom Grace Matthew's father is an avid CM gamer that uses Warmonger for his handle. Here is an update for that situation from an email I just got from Tom today. With the help of Steve, the HSG members and CM members on the battle front CM forum a call for prayer for Matthew went around the world. We literally kept a map with pins marking the locations on the world where people were praying for Matt. Matt not only did not die but he began to improve. In August 2005 the doctors finally brought him back to see what was happening. The tumor was shrinking!!! All treatments stopped in January 2006 but even so the tumor continues to shrink. While he is still a quad, blind and requires a vent, he is slowly regaining movement to the amazement of all. He is going to school full time with a 3.75 grade point average. We have a long way to go and we are not out of the woods but things look better than those grim days of 2004/ 2005. There is obviously a continued need for prayer for Matthew and the Grace family. CM has brought us together and the community makes us stronger. Thanks for your support and prayers of this family. I know they appreciate you. Steve