Terif

There are a lot of discussions now about LongRange (LR) airfleets and that they are too powerful and we should make house rules against them. I do NOT agree with this. First I have to say: important for me is SC as a game that makes fun, is playable and balanced. That means both sides (Allies and Axis) have nearly the same chance to win if the players are equal. Changing things out of historical reasons or cause of more realism is another discussion. Why is LR needed ? - Now SC is nearly perfectly balanced, no side has a real advantage. They only have to use different strategys because of the different starting position. LR belongs to the game and if you forbid to use them this creates an imbalance. - without LR its very difficult for Allies to win, against an experienced player nearly impossible. The most important thing in SC is reconnaissance and Allies need LR for this. Axis dont need it, they rule the continent and can use some cheap units like corps for recon purposes, they dont mind loosing them. In the consequence: Allies cant see where they can attack the carriers are weak and it is easy for Axis to set a trap and kill the Allied air and other units. No chance for a second front when Russia comes in ( If Axis player knows what he does ). Forbidding Industrial tech for Axis doesnt change this problem. Why is LR no real problem for Hqs ? Strategys against killing Hqs by LR fighters: - In general: its the problem of the player if he places the Hq in range of an airfleet, then he neednt to complain if it is attacked, thats the game . - Hqs have a range of 5 hexes. If a player notices that its Hqs are under attack he can move them back. Thats also the purpose of such an attack: forcing an Hq to move back. The enemy needs at least LR Lv2-3 to reach them there. - In case of higher LR levels of the enemy and if he tries to kill the Hqs a counterstrategy should be used: The player should know if he is in the offensive or defensive, if he doesnt know, he has a problem. In the defence he doesnt need a Hq and can move them away. Cheap corps should be used in the frontline and Hqs barely decrease the defenders losses. They only could increase the attacker losses, but that doesnt really matter, against corps the attacker doesnt loose much anyway. Behind the frontline some counter-forces (armies and tanks) can be ready and they should be Hq supported as well as airfleets if some are there. because they can move to the front if they are needed to attack, the Hq can stand 8-10 hexes behind the frontline and even with LR Lv5 the enemy cant reach them. In the offence the player should have airfleets to protect his Hqs and to make advances. If he doesnt have enough airfleets to battle for airsuperiority, he cant make a longer and successful offensive. In the end I can say: In none of my over 100 games I had problems with LR or airfleets killing HQs. If the enemy kills the Hqs, the player made a fault and has done something wrong. It can be that the enemy sets a trap and can kill one Hq with a surprise strike, then the player knows about the higher LR and can react. But normally he should test the LR of the enemy from time to time with an airfleet if he is not sure which LV the enemy has. Some people or complaining about too much and powerful airfleets. I cant remember a game where a player had significantly more than 10 airfleets at the same time. Especially as Axis you need a balanced mix of units: ground units and air units. Only with air the russian war can not be won, the same with only ground units - airfleets are necessary to finish off units, cause 2 ground units alone cant kill a defender. Normally Axis have not enough mpp to afford too many airfleets. Allies have to attack and reduce the available mpp for Axis, if they dont do and Axis have more than 10 airfleets Allies did something wrong (other possibility: Allies also builded up and have more airfleets than usual). Additionally: killing Hqs with LR is a separate strategy. It needs mpp for research, the airfleets cant attack more important targets and it can be easily countered. The main purpose for airfleets is recon and kill front units for breakthroughs. Attacking Hqs is normally a waste and is only done if there is no better target for the airfleet. And about the powerful airfleets: they attack land units with an attack value of 2. Armys and tanks attack with 4 and are cheaper to reinforce. Problem can be the experience for airfleets, cause they can attack more often. As long as there are no airfights this is true, they get faster experience than ground units. But with the first airfight they will loose all experience besides one medal. At least with jets an airfleet usually looses half of its strength points and after reinforcing the experience is gone. SUMMARY: Airfleets are only powerful if the other player has no airfleets to intercept them. But that means he doesnt have enough mpp to afford them, and he would have lost anyway, even with weaker airfleets. Killing Hqs through LongRange can be easily avoided by moving them away or using counterstrategys. The one described above is only one possibility, but there exists others too . Thats the way of SC: if there comes up a strategy, develope and/or learn a counterstrategy and dont complain and demand for changes of the rules . This can take some time, like against the dutch gambit, but until now there always existed a counter to every strategy. The only problem is, to know which strategy the opponent is using and to find out how to counter it

Some questions: - Most important thing first: Germany is allowed to build 3 rocket units.. France 1 rocket, UK ? (2 for UK and Italy ?), but rockets for UK and Russia is useless and they will never be built. With Lv0 and no research allowed they only have a range of 1. So Allies have only one rocket, Germany three. Perhaps this is a bit unfair. If GERMANY can use three rockets they can kill every unit in their way to Paris and WILL WIN without a doubt. Three is too much, no unit survives 2 army and 3 rocket attacks. One for each side would be ok. -Germany is allowed to attack russian units in their second turn. Its also Russias second turn. Does the russian units have the right to attack german units that are adjacent to them, or can they only watch and see how germans are attacking them without doing something besides reinforcing ? -Is it allowed to move transports everywhere ? If so, it would be possible to capture a russian city in the mainland like Rostov or Stavropol. If this happens does Russia surrenders as well, or has the city captured - necessary for surrender - be one of the 3 western cities ? -Italy: I guess no border crossing means also that no Italian unit may help in France until July 1915 (=July1941),but they can move to the borders in the meantime ? -same question like Piumarcobaleno: is it allowed to capture the US ressources in Russia when they come in ? If not, its perhaps a bit complicated because of the route finding of the units: they will sometimes move over a green field, even if it is not the target... what happens if they do so accidentially ?

CvM: you are right with the neutrals, except Denmark. If it is not forbidden I would attack them as Axis immediately. With the ships its no problem to get it without any costs - it only increases the experience, another good thing for Axis

By the way: is it allowed to attack neutral coutries like Denmark ? And the russian units are not allowed to attack in turn 1-2, but they can move ? Germany is allowed to attack russian units in turn 1-2, but the russians cant strike back ? [ April 27, 2003, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Terif signs in

I am celebrating my 100th ladder victory in a row

The game Codename Condor mentioned (he was Axis)was really one of the best games I ever played. It was very close to an allied defeat. Axis killed 2 carriers in a huge airbattle near Bordeaux, but they also lost 4 airfleets immediately and additional ones later. In the naval battles every allied ship was killed except one single US battleship ( Allied naval losses: 15 ships). Axis also lost the whole fleet (14 ships) including 4 of the 5 new built subs (at LV 3 at the end). But in Russia was the real bloodbath: a total of 106 destroyed allied land units 2 russian airfleets lost. Axis occupied Riga, Minsk and Kiew very fast. Fortunately the US invasion in France came at the right time and took the pressure from Russia. So it was possible to make a counterattack and encircle the gross of the Axis forces in the battle at Kiew (no HQ in the encircled area). This turned the tide and russians followed the Axis units to Germany, reoccupied all lost cities, the Ploesti oilfield and made an offensive in Romania. Axis operated all units from the western front back to Russia to regain the initiative, killed over a dozen russian units and again the Axis forces moved east, attacking Odessa and Kiew. But this gave US forces the opportunity to liberate France and Spain without heavy resistance. Portugal surrendered again not much later. In the meanwhile Russia attacked Finland that surrendered 3 turns later. After a last german/italian counterattack in France failed the game was over for Axis at September 5, 1943. Total airsuperiority for Allies despite the carrier losses: 6 allied airfleets + 1 carrier against 2 german and 1 italian airfleets. Battle losses: Allies: 106 land units, 3 airfleets (one from Sweden), 15 ships. Axis: 45 land units, 8 airfleets, 14 ships. This was a very good game, open till the end.

If you operate your air away from Malta you leave a key position in the med. Therefore Italian readiness increases randomly by 2-8(?) % per turn (usually something around 4-5 %). I just tested it again in hotseat. So what are you looking for ? Everything is normal... and if readiness doesnt increase in the following turns, your opponent just moved another unit to malta instead. Its no problem to replace the airfleet with a french corp from Marseille. Then readiness isnt increasing any more [ March 18, 2003, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Sorry, but Rambo is at work now. Maybe we continue at the weekend. He started this AAR because he thought he would win fast (I prefered this longer fight in France with the opportunity to kill all air and carrier). But from my point of view I have to say it looks now very good for Axis without a real UK opponent left. Only Russia and later USA as Allies... [ March 14, 2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Rambo really played a kamikaze game and throwed everything into France and killed it. If my units were not fast enough to kill them they got suicide... During the battle of France Italy could occupy the whole Mediterranean from Gibraltar to Syria. Nowhere an enemy, everyone was in France - only one single corps remained in southern Italy. Allies lost all three carriers, all airfleets, and 6 UK-ships (french battleships disbanded) in the attempt to stop Axis forces in France. He could delay the fall of France until March 16, 1941. UK: Only 2 ships, the canadian army and some corps survived the battle of France. Germany: 4 airfleets, 5 armys and both tanks survived. Now in July 1941, Norway is Axis, Sweden short before. Yugoslavia under siege. But really amazing: UK has only ONE ship left, + 6 landunits(according to the record)in England or Canada. No air, no carriers.. so Axis can concentrate on Russia that will enter the war soon. After the last transport sunk near Brest it is quiet in the west [ March 14, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

I can only say you need a certain amount of air ( as Axis 4-6) but without the whole unit mix they are worthless. Theres no need to raise the AA levels. If you want to you can research them. And if someone has 12+ airfleets, either you havent done your job, that he can afford so many or he lacks a lot of ground units and thats deadly for him... You cant win a game only with lots of airfleets, the mix makes it. If someone builds only airfleets, his mistake.. [ March 14, 2003, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Iron Ranger: concerning the unit type: I thought the same at the beginning, but you can simply test it in hotseat: reload the same game (mid1941)with exactly the same units in the same position and you will see the readiness increases randomly over the whole range (3-6%)with each reload. The random factor is fix during one specific reload: so when reloaded it is e.g. every turn 4 %. If you reload again perhaps 6 % every turn or 3 or 5...(with a slight random factor each new turn, sometimes it varies from the basic value +-1) Comrade Trapp: Your defence seems to be good for the later stage of war ( after Russia is in the war or short before, when you dont want an allied beachhead in France). but for 1940/mid1941 it gives a lot of opportunities for Allies to train their carriers and/or kill an airfleet from you. This surely depends on how you place your airfleets and how your opponent plays... . If he doesnt attack you or attack in the wrong place, this defence is excellent, otherwise you have to rethink it - like every strategy depends on how the opponent reacts: against some players it is very good, against others very bad. Thats a strategy game, there exists NOT one single allmighty strategy . Its all about developing a strategy, counterstrategy, counter-counterstrategy, counter.....

Iron Ranger: concerning the unit type: I thought the same at the beginning, but you can simply test it in hotseat: reload the same game (mid1941)with exactly the same units in the same position and you will see the readiness increases randomly over the whole range (3-6%)with each reload. The random factor is fix during one specific reload: so when reloaded it is e.g. every turn 4 %. If you reload again perhaps 6 % every turn or 3 or 5...(with a slight random factor each new turn, sometimes it varies from the basic value +-1) Comrade Trapp: Your defence seems to be good for the later stage of war ( after Russia is in the war or short before, when you dont want an allied beachhead in France). but for 1940/mid1941 it gives a lot of opportunities for Allies to train their carriers and/or kill an airfleet from you. This surely depends on how you place your airfleets and how your opponent plays... . If he doesnt attack you or attack in the wrong place, this defence is excellent, otherwise you have to rethink it - like every strategy depends on how the opponent reacts: against some players it is very good, against others very bad. Thats a strategy game, there exists NOT one single allmighty strategy . Its all about developing a strategy, counterstrategy, counter-counterstrategy, counter.....

This was the case before patch 1.06. But now attack strength from river is NOT halved for airfleets any more. But they are not protected there and in danger to be killed the next turn by a counterattack... therefore it is not the best place for them.

Iron Ranger: You are right about the units IN cities ( this was perhaps not clear enough)both cities should be occupied at the end. But concerning the quality of the units you are wrong: if corps, armies, tanks or HQs doesnt matter. I usually only use 4 corps until 2 turns before my attack on Russia. Only when the game checks for too MUCH units near the border the quality counts perhaps. There seems to be much more variables that count in this case. But for the minimum requirement only the number counts, not the quality. By the way, my last SC game has just finished, so I go to bed now. Have to get some sleep now . [ March 13, 2003, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Iron Ranger: You are right about the units IN cities ( this was perhaps not clear enough)both cities should be occupied at the end. But concerning the quality of the units you are wrong: if corps, armies, tanks or HQs doesnt matter. I usually only use 4 corps until 2 turns before my attack on Russia. Only when the game checks for too MUCH units near the border the quality counts perhaps. There seems to be much more variables that count in this case. But for the minimum requirement only the number counts, not the quality. By the way, my last SC game has just finished, so I go to bed now. Have to get some sleep now . [ March 13, 2003, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Adolfi: Wenn du willst, aber das dauert dann...

Adolfi: Wenn du willst, aber das dauert dann...

Liam: Russia is the smallest problem, this is only 3-8 %~ 1-2 turns later war entry. But US entry is delayed by 4-6 turns and Italy comes in right after the gambit, thats much earlyer than usual.

Liam: Russia is the smallest problem, this is only 3-8 %~ 1-2 turns later war entry. But US entry is delayed by 4-6 turns and Italy comes in right after the gambit, thats much earlyer than usual.

Liam: You will loose perhaps your first 2-3 games against the dutch gambit, but as soon as you have learned how to break the french lines you will get France in time, because of the gambit you have much more time to get it without a disadvantage later against Russia. Against average players I get France until April/May 1940. If I make some faults maybe until July. The dutch gambit only repays for Allies if they can crush Germany in France (and against an experienced player this is simply impossible if he doesnt make too much faults) otherwise its deadly for the Allies in the long run: they loose so much mpp for US, Russia and Italy, not to mention the UK mpp wasted in France. Jim Boggs: - In the Med: it depends on how your opponent reacts. If Allies defend the med you need german air + Hq to defeat them fast. Without defence the Italians are enough. - Against Russia: You should kill or encircle the 9 starting armies in the first turn, so you need some fast units (5-8 corps or tanks) and armies at least in the next turn ( also 5-8). You always should make sure to have enough Hq´s to support your units ( so you need 3-4), its better less units with Hq support than much units without. - in France: I always leave a Hq, 1-4 armies, 1 corps and some air. But I use them in Spain later otherwise I wouldnt need that much. Dont defend your cities before Russia enters the war ( or better 3-4 turns earlier) if Allies land they loose the unit and thats much more expensive than the few mpp from the city production. Only when Russia comes in you dont need a second front. Before it is good for you if Allies land. [ March 13, 2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Liam: You will loose perhaps your first 2-3 games against the dutch gambit, but as soon as you have learned how to break the french lines you will get France in time, because of the gambit you have much more time to get it without a disadvantage later against Russia. Against average players I get France until April/May 1940. If I make some faults maybe until July. The dutch gambit only repays for Allies if they can crush Germany in France (and against an experienced player this is simply impossible if he doesnt make too much faults) otherwise its deadly for the Allies in the long run: they loose so much mpp for US, Russia and Italy, not to mention the UK mpp wasted in France. Jim Boggs: - In the Med: it depends on how your opponent reacts. If Allies defend the med you need german air + Hq to defeat them fast. Without defence the Italians are enough. - Against Russia: You should kill or encircle the 9 starting armies in the first turn, so you need some fast units (5-8 corps or tanks) and armies at least in the next turn ( also 5-8). You always should make sure to have enough Hq´s to support your units ( so you need 3-4), its better less units with Hq support than much units without. - in France: I always leave a Hq, 1-4 armies, 1 corps and some air. But I use them in Spain later otherwise I wouldnt need that much. Dont defend your cities before Russia enters the war ( or better 3-4 turns earlier) if Allies land they loose the unit and thats much more expensive than the few mpp from the city production. Only when Russia comes in you dont need a second front. Before it is good for you if Allies land. [ March 13, 2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Sea Wolf: Research depends fully upon your strategy. As Axis I spend my points into antitank, anti-air, jets, subs, rockets, industry... you can really research everything, but you only have 10 points to spend, so you should know which units you want to use and research accordingly. As Allies it is easy:UK: Long Range and Jets, nothing else. You dont have enough mpp for Industry to be worth researching... US and Russia also depends upon your strategy.

Sea Wolf: Research depends fully upon your strategy. As Axis I spend my points into antitank, anti-air, jets, subs, rockets, industry... you can really research everything, but you only have 10 points to spend, so you should know which units you want to use and research accordingly. As Allies it is easy:UK: Long Range and Jets, nothing else. You dont have enough mpp for Industry to be worth researching... US and Russia also depends upon your strategy.

I have written a thread with some hints and tips for new/intermediate players. Only basic stuff, but things every player should know for a longer and happier game... http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=002198 [ March 13, 2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]