Terif

Iron Ranger and others: You are right: if one house rule is introduced, the danger is that people are asking for more rules against this and that. In general I am against house rules, cause they limit the possibilities and normally the fun. But in this particular case, I think a house rule could be necessary. Only against the Rom invasion and knocking out of Italy in turn 5. DoW on Italy should still be allowed. This is because: 1. to every other thing/gambit - if historical accurate or not - exists a counter. And every average player can learn how to counter. The game is still balanced and both sides (Axis/Allies) have the same chance to win. And thats the most important for me: a good strategical/tactical and balanced game. It is not even close to history, but thats unimportant for me. If you want a historical simulation, then you need to play another game . 2. But the Rom invasion has no real counter. Allies dont need ships to do it. Only the one carrier already in the Med. So no early Sealion, like someone proposed. The only advantage for Germany is a 3 turn window, where UK air and 2 french armies are operated to southern France and transported. After they landed in Rom, they are immediately operated back. UK receives around 900 mpp and a lot of mpp per turn. Italy looses 1250 mpp in ground forces, the whole navy and some thousand mpp from missing ressources. With this the game is not balanced any more. 3. The most important one and the real reason why I am against this Rom gambit: As far as I can see, if both players are equal, then Axis will loose the game. Axis has to be very efficient and experienced to get Paris. So there is also a minimum experience requirement for the Axis player. This can become very annoying for new players. They wouldnt have a chance to win any game as Axis if Allies do the Rom gambit. It really makes no fun winning or loosing a game in the first 5 turns. This should be a long term strategical game. We already have not that much online players and this gambit is a real killer. It kills fun and new members... Maybe this is a bit overexagerated. I dont think that everyone will use the gambit all the time. Its in the long run boring even for the one who uses it. I hope it will be used 1-2 times for experiment and then forgot. Then we dont need a house rule. A house rule is only necessary if the Rom gambit would become a standard strategy, used at every occasion. This would ruin the game and lots of players wouldnt play it any more. [ June 02, 2003, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Dan Fenton: UK needs a Hq for the airfleets as soon as they have to fight against enemy airfleets. If UK wants to fight in France they need a Hq (Montgomery). Without Hq its a waste of mpp and only gives the enemy experience... Therefore a Hq is one of the first things to buy, maybe after the first 2 chits. It should be ready at least when France surrenders, cause after this, german air often attacks UK.

I vote for the house rule: no Rom gambit. (its not necessary to forbid the "normal" italian gambit) [ June 01, 2003, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

I am voting for this house rule But its not so important for me, so other players should decide... [ June 01, 2003, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Zapp: If you want you can introduce a "anti-Rom-gambit house rule" in the Zappleague . Cause you are right: If the Rom gambit will become a standard Allied strategy, then lots of players will have a problem winning with Axis. And its not much fun fighting with this gamey tactic, at least not in every game. Once its ok, its something different, but I also didnt want this micromanagement thing too often... I prefer a longer game, where strategy decides upon victory or defeat. [ June 01, 2003, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Before playing Zappsweden, Rambo used the Rom gambit against me and Italy surrendered in turn 5 too. In contrary to the game with Zapp, he tried to crush me in France (like in every game, cause he likes the short games ) using 4 airfleets and Hq + carriers near Paris. He had a lot of luck and his corps in Paris survived three times (the first one with strength 1 ) the german attacks with a 2 hex front and 4 airfleets. Therefore France surrendered not until August 1940. Now in December 1940, Italy is liberated, Norway and Sweden conquered. I am pretty sure he will loose this game like all the others. So the Rom gambit doesnt change the outcome of the game (at least not in this one). But it totally changes the game itself. Air is king, with the need to reconquer the Med without any navy. With the gambit Axis dont loose much mpp in ground units, but they loose all italian navy. So the Med totally belongs to the Allies. In Russia there is not much change. Against experienced players, especially if they are aware of the Rom possibility (in this game I wasnt, therefore it was an advantage for Allies), the Rom gambit is like the LC gambit a short term strategy. But against new or average players it can be a killer. Germany has to play very efficient to conquer France with the Rom gambit. Especially a problem since there doesnt exist a real counter, except taking Paris as fast as possible. Without the 3 armies and no air resistance, Paris should be taken a bit earlier than normal. But this is only possible with some SC experience, otherwise Germany will probably loose fast. Therefore I also think: it would be better to have the corps in Rom entrenched with Lv6 instead of 4. If possible with a second corps at the side. Cause entrenchment alone cant prevent this gambit. For Zappsweden: In the game with me, Rambo noticed that he cant hold France, even with Italy knocked out. And if one of the 3 attacks had succeded, he would have lost his Hq and perhaps some air. I think probably because of this experience he didnt try to stop you in France and saved his air for later . By the way: we already discussed the problem with the normal italian gambit in your Med Scenario. With the much more extreme Rom gambit, you really have a problem in the Med. Like your AAR - with Greece and Bulgaria taken by Allies - shows. At least for your Med Scenario you really need a house rule against the Rom gambit. [ June 01, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Dan Fenton: Where and when research chits are bought depends on the strategy. If we take the tech and airsuperiority strategy for Allies it goes like this: Allies only invest in Jets and LongRange. Ireland is attacked turn 1-2. Usually conquered after 1-4 turns. Then the first two chits are bought. Every 2-3 turns the next chit follows until Allies have 3 chits in LR and Jets each. After this it depends on if Allies need mpp to fight in France or defend against Sealion or if there is an air war over England. If they have enough mpp they continue to buy chits (somewhere in the meantime they should have increased their air to 4 airfleets). In the area where they didnt have much research success, the additional chits are bought first. Normally Allies end up with 7-9 chits. 3 is minimum in each research field. When the invasion starts - after Russia is in the war - and airbattles begin, its useful to sell chits when mpp are needed to reinforce airfleets and a sufficient tech level is reached. Minimum is Lv2 LR and Lv3 Jets (necessary to kill enemy airfleets), earlier the invasion can not start anyway, if Axis and Allied player know what they do.

Yes, it was a very exciting and close game. A lot of action everywhere on the map . Some statistics: Allies lost 170 land, 4 air (polish and swedish airfleets included) and 13 naval units. Axis lost 55 land, 6 air and 7 naval units. [ May 30, 2003, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

August 13, 1944: German veteran armies destroy and damage some french corps, but dont come through to US forces. Allies attack the italian corps in Italy to cut it off. One of the important hexes conquered. Carriers attack fortress Prague to force german airfleets to intercept. In the huge airfights that followed - with direct attacks - 2 german airfleets got killed. 3 carriers, 5 UK and 1 US airfleet are standing now against the 2 remaining german airfleets in the west. Moskov still alive. Axis landing forces in Egypt destroyed.

July 30, 1944: The veteran armies kill 2 corps near Munich. Time to reinforce all US forces, before going into the last battle. Some french corps are protecting the valuable US armies while they reinforce. First Germany has to kill some french soldiers before they come to the US forces . Allies are now at the border to Italy. If they can cut off Italy from the rest off the world, german supply will go down to 5 without a major capital. Only two hexes are necessary to achieve this now... Therefore heavy battles are fought now at this narrow place for each hex. One german airfleet killed in the airbattles. 4 remaining in the west, 3 in the east. Sweden has been liberated by russian forces. Norway is next. [ May 30, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

July 1944: Axis forces move south towards Iraq. Russians destroy all oilfields and cities on this way. The italian corps landed in Egypt without supply will die soon against the fully supplied UK and russian corps, supported by a UK Hq. Moskov is still holding out. Only 3 Axis airfleets there. General Zukov is under air attack, but with full entrenchment in a city he does not take any damage (against airfleet with 4 medals experience). When entrenchment is reduced, he has to move into the mountains... In the west, Munich falls to UK forces. The tank entrenched there has been destroyed after he was cut off. The first heavy airbattles since the landing take place. Axis has probably 5 airfleets in the Balkan. Some german armies have been spotted in the south. Lets see how US forces perform against the veteran 4 medal armies from the russian front . Fortunately Axis has only 10 of them, as far as intelligence reported.

May 1944: Axis moves in Russia fast south, destroying Stavropol and two mines. Russia looses 7-9 corps per turn now... But surprisingly Moskov holds and german armies are retreating without beeing attacked. They try to go north, east of Moskov, but are stopped by a corps line behind the last river. Romania recaptured by Axis. In the west Denmark is liberated. US forces move in the east around the fortress surrounded by mountains in the heart of Germany. Unexpected they meet some german Hqs. Allied air had no time to rebase, allied ground units are moving too fast through Germany now, hunting the last german corps.

April 30, 1944: Yes, a lot of red island over the whole map . Voronez captured by Axis. The next defence line is Leningrad-Urals. Moskov still russian, but not very long now... US troops are celebrating in the enemys capital. Berlin belongs to USA now . Lets see how long the germans fight without their capital. Half of Germany occupied by allied troops from Königsberg to Munich. Only 4 german cities left. [ May 30, 2003, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

April 2, 1944: The end of Axis is near. Berlin nearly surrounded and under attack from 4 sides. The capital will fall next turn. Carriers are repairing... Romania surrenders fortunately, giving Russia some mpp to defend the Urals. Axis are moving fast in Russia now, without much resistance. Only some russian corps left, except one army entrenched in Moskov.

March 1944: Stalingrad captured by axis forces. Caucasus, Iraq and Egypt cut off from Moskov. That means the loss of 149 mpp per turn for Russia and UK. Uk transport in the Med stopped by an italian battleship, Axis makes an offensive in Egypt. But the western front goes very well: Hamburg and the port captured. The front line goes through Berlin now. Two mines in Norway/Sweden occupied by russian and US forces, Kopenhagen under siege. Minsk recaptured by a partisan corps.

November 28, 1943: The naval battle is over: no german ship is existing any more. During the fight 4 german ships - including 1 carrier - have been sunk. 5 UK ships got lost. Only 2 battleships and 3 carriers survived the battle. Russian corps take a mine in Sweden. The german mine has been conquered by UK forces. US scout troops stand in the outskirts of Berlin. German forces reaches Stalingrad. Axis use a Hq and an airfleet to block russian corps in the middle of the front line. 4 russian corps keep on attacking them from a river without much success: each of them has 4 medals experience.

October 31, 1943: In the 3rd combat round the again reinforced german carrier finally got killed. 2 carriers, a battleship and a corps finished it off. The sub dived now to the ground and will never come back . A major breakthrough accomplished between Hamburg and Cologne. US units pour through a 2 hex wide gap into the heart of Germany. Russian landing in the south of Sweden, Transports along the coast from Bergen to Stockholm. In the east, Rostov is lost. 7 veteran german armies supported by 7 airfleets marche towards Stalingrad and Caucasus. One russian army at Moskov destroyed. The russian attack reduces a german army to strength 1. Now Russia would need air support . German Hq and airfleet attacked by 3 corps: only minor damage. [ May 30, 2003, 04:18 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

October 3, 1943: The german carrier has been reinforced to full strength (13). It is immediately attacked again by a landed corps, 2 battleships and had to intercept a UK carrier. But it survived at strength 6. The sub dived again. Only one attack damaged it. Rostov still russian, but will fall next turn. Russian counterattack at Moskov, two german armies damaged. [ May 30, 2003, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

September 5, 1943: Unfortunately Germany discovered LR Lv3 one turn ago and used it immediately to kill a russian Hq with 6 airfleets. Now Rostov will fall in 1-2 turns. In the Baltic the last naval battle started. The lost UK cruiser is revenged: the german cruiser that sunk him, lies now side by side with the UK ship at the bottom of the sea. The sub dived at all attacks and survived. But the german carrier that intercepted from Riga port, was also attacked by 2 battleships and reduced to strength 4. An airfleet intercepting from Königsberg was destroyed. This naval battle delayed the plan to cut off the northern countries from Germany. Only one german corps destroyed. All allied airfleets are now on the continent.

August 8, 1943: Essen conquered. Cologne is next: entrenchment reduced to 0. German airfleet retreated. No airfights in Germany. In Russia each turn appears a partisan. Obviously Axis operated all corps back to Germany, no one there to supress the partisan threat. Meanwhile german armies reached the outskirts of Rostov. A russian tank is entrenched there supported by Hq. Russian forces went back to the next defence line behind the rivers.

July 11, 1943: Axis removed its forces from France. Paris occupied and France liberated. German cities under attack. Some minor airfights. In Russia a strange situation occured: 2 partisan corps and the corps offensive from Sewastopol nearly cut off the entire Axis front deep in Russia. A line of red hexes goes now from Sewastopol to Riga. Only one single hex at the baltic sea stays italian and connects the russian front with Germany. [ May 29, 2003, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

June 27, 1943: Axis is moving slowly towards Rostov. A russian tank destroyed near Sewastopol. Finally the 3 corps (1 destroyed -> 1 fresh corps) attacking the cut off airfleet do some damage. In France the mine is captured. Italian corps are falling like flies...

June 13, 1943: UK scientists report an important breakthrough in jet technology. A spy helped with some enemy secrets to catch up. Now Germany and UK have Lv3 in jets. In Russia the cut off airfleets is further attacked by 3 corps, but still no damage... Second mine captured by german armies, russian army and some corps destroyed. 2 additional german armies destroyed in France. Allies begin to cut off France from Germany along the former Maginot line (Vichy, Spain and Portugal still neutral).

May 16, 1943: No breakthrough possible without air cover near Moskov and Leningrad, russian units have to reatreat for regrouping. Axis main offensive goes towards Rostov. One mine between Sewastopol and Rostov captured, 2 russian armies destroyed mainly by aircrafts.A german army survives an attack from UK and russian armies with strength 1. Very bad, next turn they can kill another russian army. Axis operated all remaining airfleets (9) back to Russia, after they lost the airbattle in France. Now their offensive is going forward again. Some russian corps make an offensive towards Odessa, surround a german airfleet and attack it, but without doing damage.. In France things go better for Allies. Another german army destroyed (who counts the italian corps ). The tank in Paris is getting lonely..

April 18, 1943: What an unexpected victory ! Germany left the airfleet in Brussel trusting in the entrenchment Lv 5. But under naval and air attacks, this entrenchment was reduced fast and a free french army attacked together with US and UK forces. Low Countries liberated ! Germany operated at least 3 additional armies back to France in the last turn and the tank in Paris killed another US army. But reinforcements are on the way... In Russia, 7 german armies breakthrough towards Rostow, but some russian armies counter and nearly killed one of the armies. At Leningrad some russian corps moved through a gap, but were stopped by italian corps. Near Moskov the Siberian armies attack...