Iron Ranger
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Posts posted by Iron Ranger
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In two game (once each side) I convinced the other side to play with a house rule of no inverting in tech, the starting 'advanced' level of equipment was all your going to get. Each game developed diffently but a few sid moves changed considerable:
1) USA - with its better air force (L1 jets, L1 LR) you really need to think about attack minors that would normally be pro-german. Attacking these countrys incresses the USA readness significally and the longer you can hold back that air force the better. Political fall out from axis aggresstion is important.
2) HQs have a higher chance of surviving. You can still kill HQs with good planing, use a bomber to spot out to 6 hexs and consintrate you air fleets, but the easy kill they present in Russia is no longer true.
3) NA
4) More action/aggressive UK. Since UK no longer has the 'dead zone' from the fall of France to the opening attack in Russia where she just dumps all her cash into Tech. Now she needs to buy units or repair damaged ones and think of where she want to slow down the German machine (Egypt?). Combined with an equal level of air and LR, UK has a chance (small) of holding Egypt or if its lost at least causeing problems for the Axis.
Such a house rule might be a garintied win for the allies with the advanced level of air in the west and armor in the east, I don't know. I think it will lead to more combat and excitement but you will lose the satifaction of a tech level go up or surprising the other side with a well layed trap.
Side note: Most of the advances in tech/combat power didn't hit the field till 1943 (advaced air planes, consintrated AT gun, personal AT guns, LR fighers ect...). You could agree not to invest in any tech untill 1943, this would be hard to control and might lead to some interesting 'banking' of MPPs. But it would be more historical and still give everyone the excitement of seeing USA get P-51 mustanges or Germany with Tigers.
[ August 01, 2003, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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Shaka is the air limit guy, my house rules deal more with the Siberian Transfer and the desire to open the game up so its not such a liner play (at the top levels).
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Shaka - you've done alot of research on this. What number's do you feel each major power should have? Before you asked for 6 (?) only german air fleets now I see you've moved to 8. Also didn't Italy have a vey good air force in the early 30's but by 1940 it was old and out-dated? Does'nt this mean they should have 2-3 air units (bombers and air fleets) but they will be of a low tech type (italy rarely has enough MPPs to really get involved in the air race).PS... Germanies max number of Armor should be eight (8). Italy max of one (1). No way should they have more than that.
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Thanks Kuni, you must be a doctor. Good to know, if I have any medical questions I'll send them your way.
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What are we debating, war gameing or philosophy? Life is a contradiction, we drink beer that kills brain cells for fun, we eat food (candy) that rots our teath, we have sex .... wait there's lots of good reasons for this one.There is a contradiction if u say you will allow something but also say you wont play someone doing the allowed.Statement being debated:
With the (sometimes) long search for an opponent the time spent on biding and discussing house rules I find it takes one to two hours before the first turn has been played. So, when an experenced player then makes early high risk moves and they fail AND he conceades quickly every time, I'm not going to waste my time playing him again. If I (and I think most player) wanted the game to be decided quickly we would flip a coin and the winner would be given es L5 jets, game over and quick!If a player contiually makes early high risk moves and conceades early (every time or most of the time) when they fail, tell everyone. He/she will be black balled and no one will play him.To be honest Zapp I don't know what your asking here, maybe its something lost in the culture exchange or my (poor) writing skills.
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First, nice post Teif, good background info to the origianl question. Second I write my post's as I am, an Ind. Engineer. They are short to the point with the assumtion that the readers have a good understanding of the subject and don't need to be treated like fools.
OK, here we go.My friend & competitor, please, please, make yourself clear.
In a win/lose league this type of MANDITORY house rule is not needed. I don't feel it helps the game and simply deny's a possiable historical option to the game.I vote against this house rule.
My vote come's with experence, I've seen this move from both sides and understand the overall reaction.Rambo has used this move on me
I'm an experenced player and against this move(and the LC gambit) I know the counter and used it. Thier for France fell 'quickly' and I (axis) had alot of time to mop up minors and prep for the invasion of Russia.but he continued to play
I won the game, Rambo was 'behind the 8-ball' from when France fell till early 1943 because I defeated the turn one LC gambit. But he didn't give up (read 'beat his arse in Russia') which means he must have played another 2 years like a real competior rather then concedeing like a wimp (ok, I'l forgive newbies on this as they are learning and should be given alot of 'education')until I beat his arse in Russia because I had such a long time to prepare, he took the risk and kept playing and paid the price latter.
But I'm not against using house rules, as a matter of fact I REQUIRE a set of house rules when playing an experenced mate. These are:However in most/all of my game I request several house rules and one does make the LC gambit more risky for latter moves in the game:1) Axis must trigger the ST during or before March 1942, if LC gambit March 1943, if sucessfull Sealion March 1944.
2) FF option off
3) L2 HT for Russia
4) No seaborn landings on Major Power soil the same turn they activate. (std MANDITORY z-league rule)
But these are not MANDITORY for everyone, only if you wish to play me. If someone does't wish to face the turn one LC gambit simply ask the other player at the start. Zapp was kind enough to give my rules a try no reason why some of us should give his rule a try in a pitcular game with him.
I read you bitching a lot about differnet subjects also, remember "He who is not guilty should throw the first stone". And its nobody's bussiness how I spend my time during the summer, playing a game or with my Family and friends.Quiting the Z-League, crying about rules, & becoming a politician. Grab your family jewels & play the game
I have no idea what your talking about here. This post is on house rules and the LC gambit. But for the record I have never seen Rambo not post a loss and he does and exellent job of requesting people to post if they forgot.I've played roughly 100+ games & NEVER had somebody claim I don't report losses.
Yes I have a good memory, I even remember your reply to my very first post (PBEM, reloading and proving who cheats, yes 6 months ago this subject was being debated). You declaced me 'technically incompitant', I challange you to find two other people that have posted more technical details on this game in the last 6 months, and Hubert doen't count.Wow! You have a good memory, going back awhile in our history.
Yes I would love to play you my friend, but there is only three months of summer in the Northern USA and I'm not going to spend 20 day light hours a week playing SC in IP mode. Perhaps we can set a time some Sat. night.When are we going to play? I have something new just for youNow on to Zapps reply.
[ July 24, 2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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Zapp could you list the HR that are manditory in the first post?
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If a player contiually makes early high risk moves and conceades early (every time or most of the time) when they fail, tell everyone. He/she will be black balled and no one will play him. Rambo has used this move on me but he continued to play until I beat his arse in Russia because I had such a long time to prepare, he took the risk and kept playing and paid the price latter.However, who says someone would not be willing to take such risks.I vote against this house rule.
However in most/all of my game I request several house rules and one does make the LC gambit more risky for latter moves in the game:
HR1) Axis must trigger the ST during or before March 1942, if LC gambit March 1943, if sucessfull Sealion March 1944.
2-3 other house rules are included (for play balance) in IP game unless the other player is a newbie.
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tested this feature in Hotseat and PBEM and recived this result
in hotseat:
1. axis attacks the carrier with bomber and bombs it with no interceptors, they exchange damage and that is that
I guess this is the result that Hubert wants. So if you did have a carrier 'self' intersecpt' then I guess it is a bug. Though one way or another you'll get both units to attack.
I couldn't test this in IP, of course.
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in hotseat:
1. axis attacks the carrier with bomber and bombs it with no interceptors, they exchange damage and that is that
This is not right unless its a distance or supply issue ( not sure on supply but I've seen some odd stuff when supply reachs 0)
I'll hop on Hotseat and give it a try.
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There are alot of factors that can effect combat results. And attacking a fully entrenced unit in a capital with poorly supplied units will take 2-3 turns to destroy.
On tech is all luck - I;ve had games and seen games where one side just can't get and incresse in jets. One, two years with 3-4 chits and on incresses is very had to take, but it can be overcome untill Russia enters the game, then you need to develop air control or at least air neutral to keep in the game.
It's all Luck in the tech department. I've played several games where there was a HR against inversting in any tech, makes for a very good game as battle tactics rule the game and not who can get luckest with the jet and LR tech advances.
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Numbers (no tech, unknown supply but assume 100%)
Carrier - AD=3 AA=1
Air Fleet - ND=2 NA=4
Bombers - ND=0 NA=5
Carrier (D) intercepts Air fleet (A)
(assume both 10 str and 100% supply)
Damage Carrier 4 Air Fleet 3
Bomber (A) attacks Carrier (D)
(Carrier now str 6 Bomber str 10, 100 % supply)
Damage Carrier 5 Bomber 2 (3X.6)
Total Damage Carrier 9, Air Fleet 3, Bomber 2
Random battle results could incress this by a 2/3 units up or down. Also experence would effect the results. Bottom line is two attacks against any navel unit will leave it very damaged or sunk unless Tech or lots of experence is involved.
Air power rules the waves (until you get Carriers with jet power that is).
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Not sure what your asking with 'doen't work in hotseat'. I'm going to do a quck look at the numbers and check.
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Dosn't sound like a bug to me. What you described is right and one reason why bombers can be so very usefull for germany (or any nation. You'll never buy the shear number of bombers vs air fleets but 1 or 2 can be quite usefull in defending Western eroupe from Operation Overlord/Round-up ect,...
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Exellent work Oak - if you want/can throw my name on the list. E-mail is pjflanag@aol.com
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Two thoughts on this:
1) Try to pre set a game time. Its not easy as most people will ignore your post but put up something like "looking to play on Sat - contact me at ....". Hopefully you (and all of us) will not waste 1-2 hours wait and hoping someone get's online and see's your two hour post to start the bid.
2) I just don't understand these kids. They 'stoped' another attack on a public school in Delaware this weekend (yes I know that school is out for the summer, I never said they were bright). An 18, 15 and 14 year olds had over 2,000 rounds two 30-06 one 12 gauge and three pistols on thier bodys as they were walking near the school around might night. Hell I was chasing skirts by 15 and spending all my time at the beach, guess you can't do this in Del with all the industrial dumping.
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'The ugly' see - Useless
HB - Totally useless, few people buy bombers and when you do the number of units is very limited
Sonar - Fundimentaly usefull only on Carriers as protection from subs, better to invest in GR and use your BB and BC as screening ships
Rockets - Covered in great detail in my other post - useless at low levels and better to spend money on air
"The Bad" - not required but usefull
HT - First of the 'combat 3' (incress Attack point, Defence Point and incress strength by 1). An ok tech but it quickly lose's its effectiveness against AT.
Subs - Useless for the allies as they can't raid with thier subs. A nice tech for the axis with the incressed 5% dive feature allows units to excape certian death sometimes and the +1 NA can make the sub into a carrier buster if it can slip by the escorting ships.
AA - A nice tech, worth throwing in one chit for Germany and maybe UK (USSR?). You get advances and incessed defence of resources without an incressed cost of any units
IT - A great tech for Germany, questionable for everyone else as the time to get back the cost of 250 MPPs could be the entire game.
"The good" - see Required
GR - Second of the 'combat 3'. A must have tech if you wish to fight for control of the sea's. Due to the shear expense of Naval units, if you can win naval battles the other side will never be able to replace its losses.
AT - The most extensive Tech as it effects all corps and army's. OK at lower levels but over powering by L3. 10% incress in Readness, 30% harder to kill a unit, each units is now 'tank buster' - only draw back is if you get the advances too fast, building your army could be cost prohibitive.
LR - This tech in combination with air supremancy
can 'break' the other player by allowing you to destroy his C&C centers (HQs) or other units in the rear that are reinforceing. A must for any nation with carriers (UK).
"The super Tech" - must have
Jets - Top tech and the final 'combat 3' tech. This baby effects three different units (Carriers, Air Fleets and Bombers) and is the only tech you MUST keep even (or ahead) with the other side if you wish to win. The bottom line is the side that controls the air is on the offensive, and the side on the offensive is winning! This tech is so important that if you wish to compeat plan on putting at least 4 and prefearable 5 chits down (read some of the posts from master Terif on this for verification). In truth I see SC as a game of econonmics and air supremancy. This side with the highest MPPs can build more units and the side with air supremancy is on the attack and destorying the other players units.
[ July 09, 2003, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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Listed below are the different Techs for SC and my thoughts. Does anyone else see/rank them differently?
AT - HT - AA - LR - Jet - HB - Son - Sub - GR - Rock - IT
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Is SC v1.07 pro Axis, pro Allied or perfectly balanced? A short note on why you feel its one way or the other might be of interest.
Ok I din't include enough info here - Looking at the game most people play 'Fall Weise' without any house rules, biding ect. Straight up as the developers 'wanted' the entire WW2 to be played.
[ July 09, 2003, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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DragonFlame;
If you want to start a game I suggest you eather post in the Finder Forum or e-mail one of the respondance to this post. The idea of an orginised league at this time is only forming, to start playing (and learning)step up and contact another player.
I do suggest trying a game or too of IP to quicken your Learning curve.
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Great Review Terif - Thanks for sharing it with everyone.
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Rambo
Thanks for the support and note
Yes we need to keep this in mind, alot has been said in the other PBEM post and maybe we are making a Mountian out of a sand hill.There are too many great wargamers out there with battlefield honor![ July 06, 2003, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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An interesting post, and right on for the general public, though I would disagree with #9. The Historical/Balance and Work/Free time really breaks the game into two distinict groups. Some insightful observations.
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Having with steped out I don't have a vote but thought I'd drop a note here.
Truely this is the key to this senerio. With tech at a 'mid' level, the number of units at start, number of minors pre-activated, and low readness of USA and Russia the game is determinded with a huge clash at the begining. The side that gains the initive should win, this is noramlly determined in the first 4 moves.This is directly tied into the Low Countries Gambit.Suggestion:
Rather then playing a PBEM contest with the same senerio up to the top, why not plan on using a different senerio at each level. This way no one player can 'master' the senerio, each game is very different, there will be surprises in each game. I know my first 10-25 games were the most fun as I didn't know when countrys would activate, or the % for every move. Each game was a true 'unknown' with all the excitement of doing something the first time.
CNN; Kuniworth in trouble but still ranked 8
in Strategic Command 1
Posted
LOL LOL LOL -too much!