Iron Ranger
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Posts posted by Iron Ranger
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There are several different ways you can cheat, this one is easy to see but sometimes can be explained away. The common one discussed here is the 'continious reload' were you can download the file till you get the results you want.As for cheating: I thougt that the game will recognize it when someone reloads a saved game???
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JJ
Nice follow-up, I agree with everything you said but maybe I was miss understood. Each person will have to make their own decision if someone is cheating. And deside if they should continue playing that individial.
What a person talks about among friends is not my bussines but as most have stated here (as you did) we don't need a sticky with "Post here if you think the other guy is cheating, but as we know nothing can be proved so let the verbal cannon balls fly". With PBEM remaining a 'social' game I hope we will see little of this as a problem, but talking about it and letting people know that its 'wrong' is alway good.Each person will need to make a case by case judgement and Black Ball them for themselvesIf you need to cheat in a game for fun your SAD
If you make a bone-head move, learn from it
If your new and getting you ass kicked ask Questions
If your playing Terif expect to lose
If the other guy isn't making any mistakes remember: In PBEM you have alot more time to think so some of the 'good' traps in IP will not work here.
If you see the game has been reloaded and there is no note attached, ask why but keep the red light on.
Sggestion for new players:
Play your first two or three games IP, you'll learn faster and be better prepared for the different opening Gambits. In many ways the entire game turns on the battle for France. Since this is at the begining it can be disapointing to play your first HvsH game and play for 60 days in a losing or behind schedule situation. Read some of the AAR as they can help. Run a search with Gambit, Suggestion, Newbie, ? some of the posts will have 'secret' information that you will not find elsewhere. Read the SC guide in the SC HQ wed site, it has lots of good info.
[ July 05, 2003, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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People cheat, not everyone, not every time but will and do cheat (greater % chance in the competive game then a social game, which is why ladder games need to be non-PBEM).
The easy way to tell is if your getting PBEMfiles with 1, 2 ect reloads. Sometimes there is a good reason, and these should be brought up in the e-mail.
If your experenced you will start to notice if something smells wrong, Rambo gave a good list but normally it's a 'feeling'.
Unfortunily you can't tell with only one event. Above is one example, I posted the numbers for this event to happen (10%-15% depending on how you use your air fleets). The bottom line is we should talk about this, keep everyone aware thats its wrong and will not be tolerated. Each person will need to make a case by case judgement and Black Ball them for themselves only as proving the cheating will be very hard (I've seen it a few times in IP and PBEM, I simply will not play these people again)1) People sending turns where Poland surrenders on Turn #1. That's a good one to save. -
Such a huge bid. Do you both feel the game is that unbalanced or you both desire to control the axis that your willing to 'give' the allies two R&D chits, two armys and a HQ (roughly)?
Anyways thanks for the AARs - makes reading the forum interesting.
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I like your list but would move bombers to #4. As you noted they can be very usefull for Germany.My top list of "not cost effective units"1. Rockets
2. Bombers
3. Cruisers
4. Battleship
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Bump - I think it would be good to have that site/letter in the 'newbie' sticky.
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Three strategic area's I'm trying to 'force' down a different path. I'm not address tactical issues here (over powering air was listed above).
1) Axis wipe out every minor and still keep Russia out until Dec 1940 (the cookie cutter plan that has only one counter by the allies causing the game to follow the same lines every time. Play 5 hours and determine the winner in 2-3 air battles over W. France and S. England).
2) Axis controlling when the Siberian Transfer triggers. I understand why it was done the present way but just don't agree that the Russian's would have NO control of when these troops arrive.
3) The ease that the allies can conduct operation Round-up. This is due to the starting 4 armys USA gets (to prevent an easy invasion of the eastern sea coast) and the FF units that get pulled out of France (2-5 units normally).
One and Two are bound together and Three only gets worse when you adjust One or Two.
Thoughts
1) Elimiate FF units (not HR, change in the option screen)
2) Denmark and Canada start war activated
3) USA readness stays at 0 - Russian goes up 20% (you MUST read Terif & My notes on how to keep the Russian Readness down otherwise this will kill you)
4) The Canadian units are moved to Egypt and adjusted to str '1'. Renamed to represent the 4th army from India and Anzoc Corp from Down Under. Regular UK units replace the Canadian units.
5) Standard Nonseaborn invasion HR
6) Russia starts with L2 HT, German HQs start L1 Exp. (?)
7) biding if the players want
This should address everything except the siberian transfer and only contains one house rule. The Germans will really be put to the test and USA is still left with a ready to go invasion group.
I would be interested in PBEM this senerio AND adding the two other house rules
1) hard date for the ST
2) USA cash its first 4 armys (assuming not invasion fleet on the shore line)
I don't know - I'm open to suggestions or maybe I'm following the wrong line and sould reread JJ's list of control dates.
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So many area's to address, so little time. Go with the basic's:
The reason I've started pushing house rules is to eliminate gamey moves and push the game into a more historical path while at the same time keeping play balance giving a more diverse strategic options (I feel that the allies have only one 'best' plan and to go any other way is a very bad idea). This is not easy and might not be realist with the present system. I do not want to see HR to control HR to control HR. If this can't be done with 2-4 easy to understand and evenly balanced HRs then its not worth doing.
Don't want this.And now people want to address things with more layers of house rules. Pretty soon it's going to look like a Rube Goldberg contraption!
Ten is not enough to matter. I've found that 20 works well, in this system:You guys should try some games where Russian readiness is increased by lets say 10 points. It's quite interesting how it plays out.1) Game started with a 'free' DOW on Denmark
2) Russian Readness is incressed 20 %, total 50%
3) USA is left at 0 (normally would be at 8 % after the DOW on Denmark)
My thoughts exactly.Actually, when starting this thing, I was thinking of House Rules in more of a social game application.[ June 24, 2003, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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Three notes on Germanys Rocket attacks in 1944.It's conceivable that, with a small amount of targeting inormation, they might have been effective against sprawling targets such as supply depots.It his notes after the war Ike stated that if Germany had targeted the embarktion ports in southern England from mid may to early June (especially june 1-4) that they could have really caused some serious damage and maybe delayed the invasion till the next Moon and Tide phase. This would have given germany several more weeks to prepare for operation Overlord.
A german spy ring that had been turned by the british feed back the impact points of the V2 and gave the impact points as farther north then reality. Over time they gradualy 'pushed' the center of the impact zone far enough north that it wasn't so devistating.
The V3 was almost finished when the allies over ran the site in Holland. If finished it would have rained shells (?) on London at a steady rate (one every 20 min?). This might have been enough to reshape the overall ground war in mid 1944.
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Side note: If germany allows the allies to perform the LC gambit they will have a very hard time making the dead line of March 1942.
The speed with which Frace falls with this HR is key.
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Quick rundown on my first game with the HR 'ST transfer by March 1st 1942'
Air Zapp against Iron - std Fall Weiss
The game opened normally. LC, Denmark & Poland fell turns 2,3,4 respectivly. France fell mid June. Norway fell July, UK conducts raids in norway and W France. Axis DOW Sweden and VF in Aug, both last 4 turns and cost axis MPPs in units and transport fees. Jan 1941 axis control all hexs of DOWed countrys and are pushing into Egypt, steady air battles over england (rockets too). Yogo coup in July 1941, axis takes control of all UK/Med based countrys. Axis DOW USSR when readness reachs 100% and invades Iraq, its the last turn in Nov. USA has been in the game for one turn, the ground attack on USSR is average, Zapp conceades knowing he can't trigger the transfer in the 3-4 turns he has left before March 1 1942.
Tech results (at the end)
Ger L2 AT - L3 RK - L4 Jets - L3 LR(?) (10chits?)
UK L1 IT - L3 Jets (5 chits invested)
USA L1 AT - L1 Jets (2chits invested)
Germany had 8 air fleets and 2 rockets - I have know idea what Italy had. UK had 2 air fleets the bomber and the normal units you save when pulling out of france, no ships lost several damaged and repaired.
Conclusion:
This house rule really puts a crimp in the presant way we play germany (IP). You no longer have the time to invest heavyly in tech and buy lots of expensive units. And % readness means nothing except a small control on the minors you attack. Germany MUST plan a summer invasion if she hopes to 'pass' this test and continue the game. All good things except the western allies can quite easily counter invade western France in the Summer of 42 and the Axis will have even less (maybe) converted countrys to assist in stoping this.
Solutiuon:
Step 1) Cancel the FF unit option - no FF units for UK. This way she must spend MPPs on units to defend against Sealion and not in tech to easly out pace Germany. In the above game I had, FF units were 2 A, 2 C, 1 HQ, one BC - 1800+ MPPs)
Step 2) (I don't like this one and will not use it till step 1 it tested) Nerf the starting armys for USA. Historicaly USA didn't have 4 ready to go armys in fall of 1941. All 4 must be cashed in (unless transports are sitting on the coast - then consider them the Nat. Gaurd just called up) and the MPPs can be put to any use THE NEXT TURN (axis can verify use the report secreen that this was done).
Maybe this is not a good idea, but I'm open so suggestions. The idea here is to keep playbalance close to even still (slightly pro axis now, quite pro allied with ST HR) and make the game closer to historical on dates.
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Ahhhh the great rocket debate continues. They are nice to have, fun to shoot and mae some really cool sounds. But in a game with an equal skill human and the desire to win baby win, rockets are a poor investment of time. They still might be very usefull in the late game as breaking the WW1 style of war is hard, but untill 1943 I can see many area where you could invest your MPPs to better porpose.
Zapp thanks for clearing up the distance formula thing.
Rockets L0 R and SA 1 at any hex next to it
Rocket L2 R&A at 3 next to it, 2 one hex away, 1 two hex's away
ect...............
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I'm truely impressed with the work you have put into this. I throw out quick post's with some inside (unwritten?) info that I've learned but you guys go nuts and put out a book. Exellent work.
Side note for you: Zapp and I did some play testing of rockets on Sunday. Looks like for every hex from the rocket you attack you lose one attack value.
Example: L3 rocket attacks corp 3 hex's away. L3 SA is 1 (base)+ 3 (tech) for 4 (total) but - 3 (distance) = SA of 1 on that corps at that location.
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You know JJ I hate house rules, BUT your right, if we want to see the game flow in the direction each of us desire's then they will be required (each of us would like to see it go in a different way, thats life right
)I noticed your HR are heavy on date/time based interesting.
Here is the list I've been working on:
1) Allied victory if no siberian transfer after Feb 1942. (Assume Hitler is assinated for not delivering the 'living space in the east' and the SS and Army fall into cival war)
2a) No landing of troops on enemy soil the same turn you DOW. (this might make the game too hard for the axis)
2b) No landing of troops on major powers the same turn you DOW or the activte.
3) No more then 2 (3?) chits in any one tech. This should slow down the race for the air ace but would be impossiable to control.
4) You must take these citys if they are empty. London, Paris, any Russia capital.
Just my two cents.
[ June 22, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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I never said it was his fault. If you read his posts on this subject (or at least the info I've seen) he was 'troubled' (thought long and hard) by going for the hard date route or the battle field condision route. He decided to go the battle field route, I think this is wrong, or 1/2 wrong (you put in a subroutine that split direcitons after a certian date, pre Jan 42 battle field, post Jan 42 player driven). The siberian transfer was the first turning point in the war and is in any game not played the cookie cutter route. To have it controled by the side that doen't benifit by the results is wrong. The same situation would result if the axis could only attack the countries the allies said were OK to DOW.Its not Mr H's fault. -
I've asked you at least four times to change a 'turning' point aspect of the game, but to no avail.
You need to change who controls when the Russians recive the Sibeian Transfer. Did Hitler call Siberia and say now was a good time to send some troops or did the Russia military?
I would suggest the same system you have now but after Jan 1942 the Allied player can 'force' the Siberian transfer and recive the full amount allowed (two air, three HQs ect...). This should force game play back to a 'pressure' situation. Acomplish this goal by this time, or your going to get hit hard. This also rewards exellent allied play and penalizes poor axis play.
I find it increadly boring to work around this and see axis players use this bug as a crutch for poor/unenjoyable play that dgenerates down to the same static sequence of events in the 'cookie cutter' type of play.
As much as I dispise the LR Jets air race, at least thats even sided. Short of house rules I'm done playing untill this problem is fixed. I hope to see it in the final version of patch 1.07.
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Due to personal disagreements with one or two aspects of this game (SC) I need to withdraw from the turniment. Good luck, interesting senerio JJ.
My thoughts on this is that with so many units and high level of Tech the first punch is the most powerfull. Who every plays the frist two turns best has a huge advantage.
In my (unfinish) game the allies took LC turn one - destroyed the Itialian navy on turn two - took spain on turn 4 (even air war over LC now) - knocked the Germany naval down to shat on turn 6.
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If a hard date of 45 days was set it should be kept, other players will be waiting for the next step on the ladder. It also stops people from draging on games that are past 'due'.original 45 days make it july 15.take your time and enjoy the game! if you're only half-way, big deal. we have some high-priced help willing to adjucate the games!
None of this should reflect on the person I'm playing, he had a hard time getting the senerio (maybe add one week for us due to this).
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Good idea, and your right it would be nice to see all mines (example) incress to 15 in 1942, 20 in 1944 ect...
The only problem I see is in the code, and we are seeing the end of patchs for SC. Your idea would serve best in SC2, if and when it get worked on.
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Thanks for the advise guys, recived turn #9 (May 1940) today. The file has been getting Ziped, maybe its something else.
Anyway, Allies rule the waves and Germany is takeing a break from beating up on all those farmers.
I see two of the games have finished, who won (axis, allies)? I'm not sure what the deadline is but this game will have to go to Terif at our present pace. I don't think USSR will even enter the game before we need to call it quits (45 days makes it, July 1st?).
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Not a bug (would be in the other forum), play balance issue. Small question of incosstancy from one senerio to another.
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I must be PBEM hell. We are still on turn 9 in our game. My oppisate is haveing problems in downloading (?) the turns to me, I'm not sure if it's a technical issue or a compadibality problem with our internet servers. Is anyone else getting e-mail's where there is no file but the other person says one is attached?
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Wouldn't you use the editor to add 480 (or 460/riga) for the DOW by the Axis (not sure where the 240 comes from). This would be the one turn amount of cash they should recive plus the 'delay' MPPs (between 700 - 1000 MPPs). In your play-testing did you find that if russia is given this first turn DOW MPPs that she is too hard to attack, is this why it was left out but the other Major powers do get this one turn 'payout'?Either way this can be adjusted by editing the campaign using the Campaign Editor and resetting USSR income to 720 - 480 = 240.Hubert
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It would be interesting if you could only invest in each technology after a certian date. Example once the calander read 1943 you could then put R&D chit in Subs,untill then you remained at your historical starting level.
My list of 'calander dates'
1939 - Rockets, GR
1940 - HT, Subs
1941 - AA, Sonar
1942 - Jets, IT
1943 - AT, LR
1944 - HB
More then likly a meanless subject. But you might see the game progress in more of a histroical directon. However it might make games unbalanced, or cause 'temtation' as players put chits in R&D alittle early and hope for some'hidden' advances. Just an idea, it would have to be done using a House Rule (HR) and as we know those smell bad to most people (including me, though I'm using them now).
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Interested in PBEM?
in Strategic Command 1
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Damn it JJ - you beat me to the punch. I'm looking over the senerio and will send you a turn soon. Holiday season so can't give you a exact time frame.