Iron Ranger
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Posts posted by Iron Ranger
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Wrong forum. Players can be found alittle lower on the board
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Right on the money Kuni!
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Shaka,
A nice read and an interesting idea. Take this with a grain of salt, your getting close to this idea:
Hmmmm, axis controls when the ST is triggered. Allies control what countrys the axis can DOW. I might even play test that if you wish, no other HRs expect the landing one, I'll take germany also.The siberian transfer was the first turning point in the war and is, in any game not played the cookie cutter route. To have it controled by the side that doen't benifit by the results is wrong. The same situation would result if the axis could only attack the countries the allies said were OK to DOW.Just having alittle fun on Friday night, but the play test offer stands.
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Not bloody likely. While I would like to see some changes I understand the need to say 'the project is done!' and move on. I've lobbied for a three way switch on the ST but will never see it (std, off, set date), and thats sad, because this is a good game and with 3-4 changes it could be very balanced.Perhaps it's all futile, but I've got a feeling Hubert may actually incorporate some of these things.[ August 22, 2003, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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It went somewhere, I think everyone thinks its a good idea but the powers at be will never make another patch.that air fleets have their ground attack values calculated in three range zones, with the middle being 50% effectiveness and the outer third being 25% effectiveness, but it didn't go anywhere.Changing the AP/spoting/AR numbers would be easyer to code then your above idea.
But I think this is what your looking for
Ground attack values are only 2 for air fleets what you would need to see is 1-3 hexs SA & HA = 2, if 4-6 hexs SA & HA = 1 (50%), if over 6 hexs SA & HA = 0 (but removes one level of entrenchment and has the +\- 1 random damage value and experence value of 0-4 added in).
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This is only true for the USA, they had great support units and could get a tank back on the line in days. Germany had nothing like this and left them lay for the most part (expection is in Libia, Rommel put together a tank retreaval unit that worked wonders they say).Also, many of the tanks knocked out of action were repaired behind the lines and put back into the lines later on.
The problem is the overwelling power of massed long range air. Why risk having an expensive unit exposed and destoryed when you can move two armys up to a unit and finish it off with air 6 hexs away. Long range air fleets are simply too powerfull (not air but the LR is the problem). This comes from the lack of stacking I think. If they shorten the range to a realistic 3-4 hex attack range, you would have a road jam at the point of attack. Look at the invasion of France. The LC normally is full of units and quite offen in advanced play where you place your unit means life of death.It's possible that the settings are fine and the problem was actually in the way myself and others were using them.
Bottom line Shaka is right in limiting air units but really what we need is a change in the starting values of air fleets and carriers plus the ability to stack two units. This is never going to happen so, play or don't play but I've reached the conclusion that germany is unbeatalbe unless your very lucky or you use some set of house rule in the Fall Weiss game.
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Ground units by the numbers
TA Tanks Attack SA Soft Attack ect.....
Corps TA 2 :: SA 2 :: TD 1 :: SD 1 :: AD 1
Armys TA 4 :: SA 4 :: TD 2 :: SD 2 :: AD 2
Tanks TA 5 :: SA 4 :: TD 5 :: SD 4 :: AD 3
In looking at this you see Tanks have a GREAT defence (5 vs 2&1, 4 vs 2&1, 3 vs 2&1) but an equal attack value comparied with armys (4 vs 4&2). Tanks are best used as 'Moble shields', when a tanks is exposed and attacked you need to have backup units ready to counter attack as the units attacking the tank will be heavly damaged.
What you see in SC:
1) people use few tanks, too few to make a difference normlly (5-7 at the start in russia is right for germany)
2) people use them as 'heavy' tanks. This is wrong they should never attack unless: A) your going to distroy a unit +.3exp
your using them in a breakthrough hole to open the edge and free yourself of the ZOC.3) people expose them with no or little support (supply and other units). A single tank rushed out and left with little supply can be cut off and destroyed with little fear of a counter attack. 3-6 tanks going through a breach can cut supply and survive (str 1-3, lots of reinforceing required) most attacks. If you have infantry following (armys) you should be able to crush the attacking units as they will all be str 5-7.
4) Tanks are best used in citys. A tank entrenched in a city is in an increadable position. You must go around and encricle or you going to lose MPPs.
I think what you want to see is the HA value of armys reduced to 3 showing that infantry can't attack armored units as equally as they can other infantry. Of course armys had tanks destroyers, AT guns ect.. so maybe this is not a good historical idea.
Historical note:
Germany entered Russia with 3000 armored vechials (sp) and stoped outside of Moscow with 100(??). To be honest the attacker is ment to lose armored units that he push's into the breach. But his following armys should 'break the line/back' of the other player after he counter attacks. If no counter attack, great - drive into his rear and encircle some units.
sorry for the spelling errors, just my thoughts
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Nice list John, but you know my hot button. Fix the siberian transfer and alot of the balance issuse's will disapear. Bringing the LR tech back to earth would be nice too. Bombers fine, change starting Air Fleets with AP/SP 4 AR 3 (now 5&6), Carriers change to SP 3 AR 2 (now 3&3)
Not sure what your asking for in #2. If would be nice to see a second tech for tanks just like Fighters (jets and LR). Call it "Tank ???", five levels with each level incressing one aspect of tank capibilitys.
L1 - SD +1
L2 - AA +1
L3 - SA +1
L4 - AP +1
L5 - ND +1 or AD +1 or ???
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I've played several newbies in the last week and thought maybe we need another list of known bugs and/or odditys. Here it go's in no special order:
1) French units sent around the Horn before the fall of france and that arive in egypt after the fall of frace will not becoume FF units. This means you can't reiforce them or put them on transports untill Paris is liberated.
2) If a capital is recaptured all hexs that don't have a 'liberation' unit on it will return to the concoring power. Specal note, any FF units in France will disband if allies take and lose Paris a second time.
3) MTs, swamp and channel hex's cost 2 APs and reduce supply by 2 for each hex.
4) Ground units attacking out of Rivers, MTs and swamp hex's are at 1/2 value.
5) Air units attacking out of MTs and swamp hex's are at half value. I suggest each person play test this as my work was some time ago, but this is what I came up with.
6) Until the fall of France you only need to keep one unit on the Russia border. But depending on when France falls this number could increase alot on the next turn. If you have a protracted battle in France make sure you get several units to the border the same turn Paris falls.
7) WAS wrong - sorry
8) Alot of people leave the Swiss alone. You don't get amy MPPs for controling the country but you do get plunder after destroying its two armys.
9) If you take England and let Manchester becoume the capital there is a bug that cause's this resouces to increase past '5' even though your not connected to a friendly capital. This means you can leave a HQ on the island and it will provide L10 supply to the defenders. This is very important to stop any couter invasion.
10) Fighers intersept out to thier Spoting range but they provide Bomber support out to their Attack range.
11) It cost's +1 AP to cross an enemy conroled river or enter a hex with 2 ZOC.
I hate to see people lose because they didn't know some odd rule or bug so here is my second and last (maybe) list.
1) Allies do not need to retake Paris to use it as a 'major capital' supply base after operation Overlord. If they control at least one hex next to Paris, all resources with a path to the capital will upgrade to strenght 10.
2) Gabralter has a limiting reiforcement to str 5 until spain is attacked. Then you can reiforce units in Gabralter to 8.
3) I was going to write a 'major' review on bombers simialer to the post on rockets, but I figgered everyone will understand the importance of this without too much detail.
Bombers reduce entrenchment by two levels for every attack. Combine this with thier 8 hex attack range and Germany (or england in France) can 'walk' right through set lines of defence. This makes holding a defense line very hard and much easyier for armored breakouts.
4) There is one MT hex in eastern germany (35,14?) that will not add one 1AP to movement. Watchout as a polish corps might us this secret pass to take a German city quickly.
5) When placing units on the Russian border, only use corps (and if you must no more then 2 armys) until your ready for invasion. Terif has a simialar post somewhere, the % increase seams to be based on the TYPE of units on the border. If you only us corps you'll see it increase by only 1-3% each turn (roughly).
6) A unit lanched from a port has the transport supply level of the unit. A unit landing will have a supply level of L10 and 100% readness no matter the supply level of the transport. I feel this is a bug and makes seaborn invasions much too easy.
7) Turkey and Finland have two OOB and will setup depending on who makes the DOW.
8) To stop partisans in Yougoslavia you need to have a ZOC in all MT hex's (three units).
9) To stop partisan units in USSR you need to have a ZOC in all MT, Swamp, and city hex's. This means 7 units in western USSR, 2 in central USSR and lots in eastern and southern USSR.
10) Readness is based on what I call the rule of 3. For every 3 levels of increased support (Supply, HQ, Strengh) you gain 10% readness. This is a simplified way of looking at the formula's listed in the Manual but easyier to use when determining when to reinforce or what HQs to use.
Drop me a line if you have any questions on these 'bugs' :cool:
[ August 22, 2003, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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Fine, we'll continue some other day.
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Saw your post in the tech section,I don't know what that error message means, sorry can't help. I'll assume you've read the files attached to the game when you install it.
[ August 21, 2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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Kuniworth
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Member # 9491
posted August 19, 2003 05:00 PM
hello
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Iron Ranger
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Member # 11325
posted August 19, 2003 04:50 PM
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continue our game?
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Kuniworth
Member
Member # 9491
posted August 19, 2003 05:10 PM
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Actually I would like to start a new one...we can continue our game later...are you in on a new 1:8?
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Iron Ranger
Member
Member # 11325
posted August 19, 2003 05:14 PM
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Pass on the new game, we've just reached the fun part with all Major Powers joined. If you simply don't want to play that game anymore, concede and post the loss.
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Iron Ranger
Member
Member # 11325
posted August 19, 2003 05:38 PM
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No reponce means no. I'm going to assume that you don't want to continue our game, please post a loss on the Z-league board.
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Kuniworth
Member
Member # 9491
posted August 19, 2003 08:06 PM
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here now, so tired I fell a sleep on bed...no I wanna continue game but wanna try new strategy against somebody right now
Looks like you need a confidence booster Kuni. If you don't want to post the loss I'll give you a few wins tomarrow, so you feel like you can compeate with your betters.
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In an HvsH game they are almost useless (run a search for more info). There are special case's where you might find a use for them but normlly another unit will do a better job.
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Terif what was the key to victory?
Rambo what move would you like to take back and replay?
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Deleted
[ August 18, 2003, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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Shaka, thanks for the info both here and in your e-mail.
Size or US Army in 1941.
Ranked 16th in the world just behind Romania's (2 armys and 1corps in SC). I think a realistic OOB would then be 2 corps 1 army. Disband the other 3 armys and build 1BB, 1BC, and one bomber (extra but no Wasp carrier).
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uk subs can attack other subs (without surprise) thats because they have sonar level 1, german subs cannot.
Cool, I never knew that. I need to play test this becaue I thought in one game I had subs and could not attack the itialian on unless it was a surprise contact. Hmmmm - breaking out the editor tonight!
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Thanks for the photos and info on how to post them. Looks interesting and fun, truely an odd game with some wild looking combat!
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I think we are trying to split hairs between history, game play and the balance between them.
Yes DeGaul (sp?) did a good job but the doctrine just wasn't there for the French armor. Not running out of gas would have helped alot also.
I think we need to look at the HQs as the doctrine ect... advantage the germans have and go with the equipment for Tech levels.
And your right on the Russians having better tanks but not helping them out much. Against a good player those two armored groups are toast even with L2 HT.
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Sure it does, buy the Manteuffel HQ with rating 9 and watch the French troops melt under your attacks. Or better yet stick an armored unit in a hole with that support and let the French armys counter attack it to thier deaths. Open road to Paris!How can the Germans possibly have less effective armored units than the the French in 39 and 40? Doesn't leadership like Guderian, Hoth, Manteuffel and Rommel count for anything?[ August 08, 2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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We might be talking about different dates, most of what I'm (and I think others) are talking about is the USA OOB in Dec 1941, not what they will become in 1944 ect....
Germany must attack deap enough into Russia to trigger this event. Easy to do without a bid and smart use of Armored units. Note: Axis must be smart and attack in the summer or 41, you can't wait untill the readness reaches 100% (unless you've attacked alot of minor or left the border empty). You need to think Stragtegicly and plan your attack.Siberian Transfer ... Under your first House Rule, how do you force the ST by March '42?
True, its all luck. Thats why I would start HT for germany at L1, USSR L2 and UK/US at L0 on Dec 1941. It seams that all factors together would bear out these Levels.Heavy Tank Tech ... Since we can't control the tech advance rate, the relationship between the starting points of each nation is whats critical
At what time? The Pz IV D was really a infantry support unit and not until the Pz IV F/H (high volicty 75 (?)) would I move that group to L1 HT. Till that time they would be L0, but have great readness because of the experence and qualiy of the HQ units.The combat power for the ten (10) German Panzer divisions comes from the Pz III, Pz IV and Pz 38. Those models represent tech level one (1).
Did the US really have that many high quality, trained, supplyied, and supported units in 1941? My understanding was the ground troops in 1941 were older, poor quality and poorly equiped, ie only good for defensive action. Not untill the Army reorginized in 1942 did you start to see units that would be considered 'combat' ready. I 1941 wouldn't 1-2 Corps and 0-1 armys better represent what the USA could put in the field, plus no HQ support till the spring of 1942. The US high camand was very disorginised comparied to the UK and German staffs in 1941.The US had four (4) tank divisions. You just can't count them under a Corps, because then you don't reflect the combat power they represent. -
Depending on how you look at it you could justify almost any number. Dates included in my thoughtsYou make a valid point about tank comparisons, but you also have to be careful because those comparisons start to bring up the starting Heavy Tank techs, which then brings up that the starting point for the Germans is '39, but the US is '41. Here is my take on the Hvy Tank techs.
39 40 41 42 43 44 45
France 1 - - - - - -
UK 0 0 0 0 0 0/1 1?
Germany 0 0 1 2 3 3/4 4
Italy 0 0 0 0 - - -
USSR 0 1 2 2 2/3 3 3
USA 0 0 0 0 1 1 2
Very hard to compare, looking at Equipment, Admin, Operational use, Training, Quality of Equipment (SPC?) ect.....
The largest problem is with the "advance one tech and all you units get an upgrade". I've seen several games go both way and prefer with you need to return the unit to the 'shop' and pay alittle more to get an existing unit to the next tech level.
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ST = SIberian Transfer, my 'hot button'.
I feel providing any tank groups to USA in the early game is out of historical balance. Yes, they had Mech divisions and that could be represented in the two corps (+1 AP over armys) but they didn't have the 'operational consepect' for large armored units until 1944 (?)
I just put together a senerio starting Dec 1941, anyone interested in play testing it? The battles around Moscow will be the hardest to simulate.
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The problems with Russia, and having the battle of Stalingrad as an almost garentied loss, is where the other supporting HR come in (higher tech, forced ST).
Do you really think that USA should start with two tank groups? I could see two mech corps (add one to the above OOB). But the Lees and Grant tank were alot poorer then the Sherman (closer to Pz II and Pz III) and that tank was a joke compared to the std german tanks (one on one).
Operation Torch was mostly a British affair, as far as I know we only supplied one Mech corps (ground troops, not including air and navy) for this operation (II corts would do fine). As far as preping for additional units, Dec of 1942 is a year away and over 3000 MPPs of production that the allies could build with , if dealing in historical dates only. In looking at the game and early entry of USA, you might be looking at closer to Dec 1941, but even then getting one or two corps into action should be a problem.
On the navy I think we have to look at supporting and offensive action. Defending against the axis subs/combined fleet is nice but most players never go that route (air power is much more important). With the extra three BBs and one BC the allies can conduct offensive action in both the Med (if they still hold Gabralter) and continue aggresive raids around England. Presently there is not enough Naval power to be aggresive in both regions, and that just doen't seam right for two of the top navies in 1942.
your using them in a breakthrough hole to open the edge and free yourself of the ZOC.
We Know v1.07 is the last, but . . .
in Strategic Command 1
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