Edwin P.

Excellent Topic, Another idea would be to allow a Neutral Russia to use its diplomatic muscle (ie diplomatic chit) to allow its navy to sail through the Turkish Straits to the Med or it may invite the UK fleet to visit the Black Sea (although the UK player may find that the Turks don't allow them to return to the Med if the Axis expend a diplomatic chit on Turkey to keep the UK fleet bottled up). And if Neutral Russia attacked Neutral Romania or Iraq or Iran, perhaps the Turkish Alliance % would increase enough so that a diplomatic chit or two might bring them over to the Axis side. As for attacking Finland, perhaps this would cause Sweden to join the Axis, reduce USA war readiness and activate Finnish Partisans? Will there be any limits on the Russian setup? I ask this because a Russian player to avoid the encirclement of his forces on the German border might be tempted to locate all of his troops 200 miles back from the Russian/German border. [ June 02, 2004, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Simplified Turkish Feint for the Italian AI Trigger: No Allied Warships in the in the Med WHEN Russia reaches 70% readiness. Chance: 0% beginner, 2% intermediate (1 in 50 games), 5% Genius (1 in 20 games) Effect: Turkey remains neutral but, Axis Naval Units and Transports can move through the Turkish Port and Straits into the Black Sea. Italian AI builds a fleet of 3 to 5 Amphibious Transports that will sail through the straits to invade South Eastern Russia after Germany DOW Russia or Russia DOW Germany. Just something to give the human Allied player an interesting surprise when he is employing his cookie cutter Russian defense against the Axis AI. Then he faces the prospect of weakening his front lines in order to protect his oil fields. Of course, the same code could be used in reverse to allow the AI Russian fleet to enter the Med or the AI UK fleet to seek shelter in the Black Sea. Imagine the Surprise on the face of the Italian Admiralty with they hear that transports heading to Cairo were attacked by a Russian battlefleet! In a script this could possibly be coded by reducing the value of the Turkish Port to zero and changing ownership of the hex that controls the straits. Any comments? [ June 02, 2004, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Desert Dave if I find the time I might take you up on that, this week I am in Chicago, next week Toronto and then its on to Atlanta. But seriously, from all the comments I have read about SC2 its going to be a real blast of a game, a real old fashioned barn burner of a title. [ June 02, 2004, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Some thoughts on my proposed Sea Zone Intelligence System for the AI. 1. Its Simple - The AI needs only to know the number of warships in a Sea Zone to make a strategic decision. It does not need to know where the ships are, only the number of ships. It makes script writing easy if this number, or a ratio using this number, can be used to trigger AI actions. 2. Its Realistic - During WWII the Axis powers had a good idea of how many enemy warships were in the Med. They had observers in Egypt, Beruit, Turkey, Libya, Vichy Algeria, Morrocco, Spain, Sardnina, and Italy. They would count the number of warships that sailed through the Suez Canal and the Straits of Gibraltar and subtract the number of ships sunk. 3. Its Human - Many human players have a good idea of how many warships are in the Med. They look at the Reports to see how many US ships there are and if it says the US has 2 ships and those 2 ships are sighted in the Atlantic they know that those two are not in the Med. 4. Its Fair - It tells the AI only that there are human ships in this sea zone, but not where they are or what type they are. The human player can still launch surprise attacks on the AI and ambush the AI's units. 5. Its Intelligent - The AI has a chance, based on its level, Novice 20% thru Genius 100% to access this information. At Genius level you can count on the AI playing a much stronger game as it has access to more intelligence on which to base its actions. [ June 01, 2004, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Optimal AI Response to Human Strategies Human Strategy #3: Withdraw all Allied Naval forces from the Med to the Atlantic and stations a Corps in Malta. Current AI Action: Some or no Italian warships bombard Malta, they stay near ports in Italy or Libya. The Italian sub does not interdict merchant shipping in the Med. Proposed AI Action: Trigger: No Allied Warships in the Med AND Allied Land Unit (Corps, Army, Armor or HQ) in Malta. Chance: 20% at Novice to 90% at Expert. Effect: Each turn all Italian surface warships, if assigned no other objective, with experience less than 4 bombard Matla and any Italian subs interdict merchant shipping routes in the Med to gain experience. Any suggestions for improving this suggested AI response? Assume that AI has a percentage chance based on AI Level (20% at Novice AI, 60% Beginner, 100% Expert) to know number of Enemy Warships in the Eastern Med (East of Malta), Western Med (West of Malta), Baltic and Altantic Sea Zones. [ June 02, 2004, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

I sometime attack the Russian player early in the Game right after I take France, Denmark, Greece and Norway. The result - there are no Russian forces along the German Border. Its a real shock to the human Allied player.

Synchronous turns, I believe that this term only applies to how the date advances.

For information on modifying the graphics files in SC go to: Strategic Command HQs - Graphic Modders Tutorial

DAK_bpin Question for the Italian AI: When should Italy purchase an air unit? Should that unit be a bomber or an Air Fleet and should it be kept in the Italy for Spotting, used in the Med for spotting or attacking or should it be used on other fronts -ie France, et al. In my mind, the Italian AI should pick one of several strategies to guide its actions - 1) support German Europe Strategy (current strategy in SC1), 2) Conquer the Med Strategy (aim to conquer Greence, then Egypt, and then Iraq or Vichy & Spain and Perhaps Malta), 3) Breakout to the Atlantic Strategy or a 4) Defend the continent strategy where the AI builds an army to defeat any allied invasion of Europe amnd lets the Germans conquer Russia. It should also consider #5) the rarely used Turkish Invasion strategy. IF the AI could select randomly one of these strategies to guide its actions it would make for a most interesting game. For example 3) Breakout to the Med Strategy would have the AI research Gunlaying radar or advanced subs, perhaps building an additional sub or two and then breaking out into the Atlantic with a large fleet. The objective is to isolate America from Europe and sink the Allied naval fleet. Parameters: Research - Gun Laying Radar, Subs Build Conquest Objectives 4) Defend Europe - the AI focuses its expenditures on building a strong army to defeat any Invasion force. Parameters: Research - Infantry, Anti-Tank and possibly anti-air. Build - Corps and Armies, maybe a bomber for spotting. Geographic Limits - Italian Units are limited to Western Europe and the Med Zones. (this means that you will not see Italian units in Russia) Conquest Objectives - Greece, if Egypt is weakly defended then Egypt otherwise Vichy for the production. Italian AI Decision Tree IS UK Navy Severely Weakened after the Fall of France and the Italian Navy Strong (Italian Navy 4 or more ships) Yes 10% Support German in Europe Strategy 20% Conquer the Med Strategy 50% Breakout to the Med Strategy 10% Defend Europe 5% Turkish Feint Is the British Navy Strong and the Italian Navy Strong after the Fall of France 25% Support German in Europe Strategy 30% Conquer the Med Strategy 10% Breakout to the Med Strategy 30% Defend Europe 5% Turkish Feint Is the British Navy Strong and the Italian Navy Weak After the Fall of France (ie Italian Navy 2 or Fewer ships) 30% Support German in Europe Strategy 30% Conquer the Med Strategy 0% Breakout to the Med Strategy 30% Defend Europe 10% Turkish Feint Note that as HC its best to have the AI do a few things well, so maybe, it would be best to reduce these 5 strategies to just 3 and leave out the Turkish Fient (which I think is way cool) and the Breakout to the Atlantic (which is also cool) which would take much more time to program well and be rarely used. What is the Turkish Feint? Italian Fleets builds up experience bombarding Malta while Italy builds HQ and lots of Corps. They Fleet sails for the Agean, when war is declared on Russia the fleet bombards the Turkish port to zero, and a corps lands to sieze the straits on turn 2, and then Italian transports sail through the straits heading for the Russian Oil Fields. Three warships follow them into the Black Sea to sink the Russian Navy. It forces the Russian player to weaken his front lines in order to guard his rear. Sparingly used it can be a most unpleasant surprise for the Allied player. [ June 01, 2004, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

DAK-Bin, thanks for the suggestions and your points are very true. I agree that 100% proabilities for general strategy is a bad idea and your point with it leaving Rome open for invasion is a good one, so let's refine the AI rules that I suggested. Perhaps reduce the percentage for Genius Level AI from 100% to 95% or 90%? Essentially, here I tried to make the AI more likely to fight smarter at higher AI levels and to use the strategies favored by the best players instead of relying on the general purpose AI built into the game engine. The key as your pointed out is to define these circumstances very carefully and to understand its implications. Now let's analyze he circumstances of where this strategyt might be used to see if it can be improved. Case 1: Early Game - Turn of Italian Entry ino the War and allies have 1.5: 1 Superiority Case 1.1 Allied Naval Units Only - Best Solution - Adriatic Defense - Preserves fleet until UK navy is needed elsewhere or reinforcments can be deployed - ie Airpower or building another sub. Case 1.2 Allied Naval Units and Amphibious Transports - The question here is can the Allies take Rome AND if so can the Italian fleet stop them. If not then the Adriactic defense is probably the best choice. It should be noted that if the Allied can land to the east of Rome then it becomes very hard to take Rome on one turn, and the Germans can operate in reinforcements, perhaps an Armor unit to replace the Italian corps. Case 1.3 Allied Naval Units with Carriers and Ampbious Transports. Is it best sacrificing the fleet to stop the invasion force or using it block the Adriatic from Allied transports? The Adriatic Defense Strategy is probably a good idea at the start of the game and perhaps later in the game IF (the Allied forces are NOT accompanied by Amphibious transports) OR (the Italian Fleet can not interdict the amphibious transports before they can land troops AND the tiles next to Rome are undefended). It may also be a good strategy under these conditions if the objective is to prevent amphibious landings from the Adriatic Sea, thus securing the Eastern flank of Italy. In addition, if the AI can sink a carrier or two with a high probability it might be worthwhile to forsake the Adriatic Defense. Notice how a simple AI rountine can become very complex. Also, note that the routine as written did not take account of Axis airpower that could support the Italian Fleet or spot enemy vessels. And note that the routine's pertains only to the balance of forces in the Eastern med and ignored the number of enemy ampibious transports in the Med. Perhaps a different routine is needed if X+ amphibious transports are in sea zone X or Y? In fact, your bring up another point - How best to defend Italy against an Allied invasion, in the start, middle and end games, but that is another thread (which builds on a suggestion that the AI reclaim all Tech Chits for MPPs if the Capital is threatened, something that the AI in SC1 does not do, even when the UK is facing a sealion and London has fallen to the Axis.) [ May 31, 2004, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Will do, hopefully the scripting tools will allow for the development of most interesting and variable AI responses. The key will be how HC allows one to incorporate AI knowledge of enemy deployments into the scripts - ie radius, zone, or some other method and whether the scripts can effect general unit actions or just economic and political events. This this point in time the only items confirmed is that the scripts will be able to affect political actions, annexations, alliance % changes, unit movement and unit placement and resource activation. Even with these limitations it should be possible to write scripts that will make taking on the AI much more of a challenage. Imagine this: AI[Expert]IF Human[Axis] Occupies [Moscow] THEN (10%) Triggers [Turkey Joins Allies]. Imagine this: AI[Expert] IF Human[AXIS] AND IF Date=[6/6/1942] THEN (5%) Triggers BonusUnits [uSA: Carrier, Cruiser(2), Bomber(2)]. Imagine this: AI[Expert] IF Human[Allies} DOW Ireland THEN (5%) Triggers [Norway Joins Axis] AND [spain Joins Axis]. [ May 30, 2004, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Optimal AI Response to Human Strategies Human Strategy #3: No Allied Naval Units in the Med Current AI Actions: Italian AI is passive and does nothing even if they have sunk all Allied ships in the Med. Proposed AI Actions: Trigger: Italian Naval Forces have 3:1 Advantage over Allied Naval Forces in the Eastern Med Sea Zone AND Greece is Neutral. Chance: 20% at Novice to 100% at Expert. Effect: 1st) Italian AI Adopts canned: Greek Invasion Strategy THEN 2nd) Italian AI may adopt canned: Egypt Conquest Strategy OR 3rd) Italian AI may Adopt canned: Malta Conquest Strategy OR 4th) Italian AI Adopts canned: Vichy Conquest Strategy Greek Invasion Strategy - 4 Ampibious transports to conquer Greece in 1 or 2 turns. Vichy Conquest Strategy - Simulataneous attacks on Vichy France and Vichy Algeria Any suggestions for improving this suggested AI response? Assume that AI has a percentage chance based on AI Level (20% at Novice AI, 60% Beginner, 100% Expert) to know number of Allied Warships in the Eastern Med and Western Med Sea Zones (east and west of Malta). [ May 29, 2004, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Optimal AI Response to Human Strategies Human Strategy #2: Withdraw Allied Naval forces from the Med to the Atlantic Current AI Actions: Italian Navy is Passive. When it attacks it does so in small groups of ships and allows itself to be destroyed in detail. Proposed AI Actions: Trigger: Italian Naval Forces have 2:1 Advantage over Italian Naval Forces in the Eastern Med Sea Zone and Western Med Sea Zone. Chance: 20% at Novice to 100% at Expert. Effect: Italian Navy AI Adopts canned: Naval Search and Destroy Strategy Search and Destroy: AI Naval Units move carefully in massive group to locate and destroy Enemy naval units, first in the Eastern Med and then moving to the Western Med. Perhaps using a low cost corps transport/amphibious unit as a scout. The corps will move ahead of the fleet to locate the enemy so the entire Italian fleet can strike on the same turn for maximum effect. Note: That the AI should change its operational tactics based on the current balance of forces. Switching between them as the situation changes. Any suggestions for improving this suggested AI response? Assume that AI has a percentage chance based on AI Level (20% at Novice AI, 60% Beginner, 100% Expert) to know number of Allied Warships in the Eastern Med and Western Med Sea Zones (east and west of Malta). [ May 29, 2004, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Optimal AI Responses to Human Strategies Human Strategy #1 - Send all Allied Naval Forces (UK and French) to the Med to engage and sink the Italian Fleet before the French fleet disbands. Current AI Actions - Italian AI engages Superior Allied Naval Forces and is destroyed after sinking 2 or 3 Allied (usually French which will disband when France falls) ships. Proposed AI Action: Trigger: Allied Naval Forces 1.5:1 Advantage over Italian Naval Forces in the Eastern Med Sea Zone. Chance: 20% at Novice to 100% at Expert. Effect: Italian Navy AI Adopts canned:Adriatic Defensive Stategy Adriatic Defensive Strategy: Axis Navy Units in the Med move to the Adriatic Sea to present the smallest possible front to Allied Naval Units. Any suggestions for improving this suggested AI response? Assume that AI has a percentage chance based on AI Level (20% at Novice AI, 60% Beginner, 100% Expert) to know number of Allied Warships in the Eastern Med and Western Med Sea Zones (east and west of Malta). [ May 29, 2004, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

I agree with John DiFool that detection should be automatic withing the search radius, perhaps, as suggested earlier the percentage chance to spot an enemy shoud decrease as the range increases. Futhermore, since the game allows you to give orders to air units - Auto / Intercept / Escort / Ground why not add an order called Recon. Recon - Increases the chance of an air unit to spot enemy units but reduces the action points of an air unit so it can not move or attack that turn and readiness for interceptions is reduced by a %.

Armor research improves the armor unit's Armor and Infantry attack and defense factors. Thus its Soft Defense and Soft Attack rating improves along with its Armor Attack and Armor Defense ratings. This makes armor units substantially stronger in SC2. [ May 28, 2004, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Thanks SeaMonkey, it will be most interesting to see how HC implements scripting and to what extent. The TOAW options you dug are are most detailed and comprehensive and are giving me much food for thought and contemplation. I would like to be able to write scripts that vary the stategy the AI uses to defend France. For example 50% Standard, 25% Scrap French Navy for MPPS, 20% Scrap French Navy and French Air Unit for MPPS and 5% advance into Germany(!). In general copy the strategies of the various top players. It would be interesting to know if HC has several general strategies for each AI player's units that can be triggered. For example I would like to see the Italian Navy, at the simplest and most basic level be able to switch between a defensive posture, an aggressive defensive posture and an offensive posture at the appropiate trigger, related as I suggested earlier to my suggestion for the AI knowing how many enemy warships are in each sea zone (Western Med, Eastern Med, South Atlantic, North Atlantic, Baltic, Black Sea) and the accuracy of this being related to the AI intelligence level (0% Novice to 100% Expert).. Think of these AI intelligence zones as being a variant form of the exisiting user defined weather zone but they allow the AI to know the number of enemy forces by type (Air, Land & transports, Naval) in the zone with varying degrees of accuracy. (ie it uses some of HC's already existing code in a new way) Just this one change would allow the AI controlled Italian Navy to play a more active role in the game, do it well and make scripting a much more powerful tool. Why? Then the triggering events can be based on the relative strength of the two forces in a sea zone and this can be used to change the combat posture that the AI takes. Example: The Italian Navy has superiorty in Sea Zone X then it is more likely to adopt an offensive posture in Zone X. If the UK forces are superior in Sea Zone Y then it will likely switch to a defensive posture in this sea zone or to move its forces to another sea zone. Moreover, these routines can be used by Allied AI naval units to enhance their ability to wage the battle for the Atlantic, and I really want to see a more interesting AI directed battle for the Atlantic. Or imagine this, the Axis AI believing that the Allied Naval Forces are weak in the Eastern Med execute a campaign to capture Egypt. An Italian Corps sails past the Allied Naval Units in the dead of night to seize an unguarded Suez canal in a daring strike while Axis naval and air units foces attack the Allied fleets trapped in the Eastern Med. After sinking them Axis Units attack Egypt and seize Cairo. Then do they turn their attention West to take Malta and then Vichy France, do they head East to take Iraq or do they return to Europe to prepare for the Allied invasion of France? [ May 29, 2004, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Many Thanks for the post HC Along with the others I think that the key point is what HC said related to focusing on what the the AI can do well At the strategic level I think that in SC2 (and correct me if I am wrong) with Amphibious transports that the AI should be able to execute the following strategic moves well with special scripts: 1. Conquest of Norway - if no allied ships block access to the coast. 2. Conquest of Sweden - either before taking Norway or after taking Norway 3. Conquest of Greece - if Italian Navy has superiority in the Med 4. Conquest of Egypt if Allies leave it weakly undefended and if successful a conquest of Iraq. 5. Defeat of a weak Allied Naval Force in the Med. Example: As I said in an earlier post, if the AI has a 2:1 advantage in a sea Zone it should build be free to hunt down and destroy the enemy naval forces in that Sea zone. Anything wrong with this logic? Is this something that the AI should be able to do well? 6. Interdicting UK merchant shipping in the Med if No UK Naval Forces in the Med or Air units in range to attack the sub. Example: IF No Air unit in Malta and Libya is Axis controlled and Algeria is Axis Controlled or Vichy Controlled AND no Allied Naval Units in Eastern Med then Move Italian Sub to randomly determined merchant ship interdiction tile close to Malta. Now, what is wrong with the logic in this script? To me it appears to be simple and something that the AI can do well. 7. Bombard Malta to build experience. If Italian Navy has 2:1 Advantage in the Med and a LAND unit is in Malta THEN the Naval units should surround it and continually bombard it to gain experience until Experience Level 4 or LAND unit is destroyed. What is wrong with this script. Perhaps this is another task that the Italian Navy can do well? What will it take to make sure the AI does these tasks well? What should the conditions be for the AI to consider executing these tasks? Any reason why these proposed strategic moves should not be part of the AI's library? Any comments? any ideas for making these proposed tactics better? Another Item to consider is the Italian Build and Research Strategy. -- Say if Italy has 5 Ships in the Med and UK 3 then perhaps the Fuzzy logic should consider building a sub or a Bomber after Italy Takes Greece. This would give it 2:1 Superiority and a force strong enough to sink the Brits without any losses if no UK airpower is in range. -- If Italy has 4+ surface ships then it should consider research Gun Laying Radar with 1 or 2 chits to give it a chance to destroy any allied Naval Force that comes into the Med. [ May 27, 2004, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Possible Axis Naval AI Tactical Strategies in the Med 1. Search and Destroy - Moving as a fleet the AI aims to attack with all naval units on the same turn. 2. Locate - Locate Enemy Naval Forces in the Med 3. Defensive - Objective: Protect Naval Forces by stationing them in the Adriatic 4. Take Malta - Bombard/Conquer Malta 5. Blockade the Med - Keep Allied Naval Forces out of the Med 6. Interdict Merchant Shipping 7. Breakout into the Atlantic Of course the strategy that the AI selects using Fuzzy Logic for the Med will depend upon 1) its Global Strategy and 2) the Relative Balance of forces in the Naval Sea Zones in the Med (ie Axis Naval Forces vs Allied Naval Forces) For example - if the AI outnumbers the Allied Naval Forces in the Med then it should be more likely to select the 1) Search and Destroy Tractics or the 4) Take Malta Tactics. If there are no Allied Naval forces in the Med then it should be more likely to 6) Interdict Merchant Shipping or 5) Blockade the Med or even 7) Breakout into the Atlantic ================================================ [ May 29, 2004, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Excellent idea, as you are aware of the human tendency to lure the AI into ambushes by leaving cities undefended, thus partial intelligence might be worse than no intelligence.

Will their be a tile hex type that will be unpassable to Armor/Mechanized units but will allow non-machanized armies to pass. I am thinking about a range of mountains where the cost for armor units to enter it would be much higher as the armor unit must stay on the road or mountain hexes, aka Korean War, that Armor units could not traverse.

Perhaps I am wrong but I don't believe that heavy bombers were tasked for intelligence missions deep behind enemy occupied areas (except over the Atlantic) and the technology available to bombers during WWII was much below that available to Bombers today. I will have to research this. Most spotting was done along the front lines and unlike in SC1 enemy air units affected/degraded ones ability to spot units located behind enemy lines. In fact, I think that the presence of enemy air units should degrade your spotting ability in some fashion. The key questions are is their a simple way to do this and will it improve the game as I think it will. [ May 27, 2004, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Yes. Also, I just realized that the new unit - amphibious transports - will make it easier for the AI to make amphibious invasions. Am I correct? Will we be seeing an AI that is more prone to launching Amphibious invasions in SC2?

Thanks SeaMonkey. Very Much appreciated. This appears to mean that a Air Fleets Range should be about 5 Tiles at start and the Bombers Ranage about 15 titles at start (on average). As for the spotting range. I would give Air Fleets a spotting Range of 5 tiles and Bombers a spotting range of 4 tiles as they were not used for intelligence gathering. One problem with assigning such a long range to bombers is that if a Naval Ship spots an enemy fleet at 15 tiles then they can call in an air strike on it. Would this be realistic?