Panzer39

I would like this thread to discuss the German naval build up program prior to war and figure out the best way to mod it into SC. I am thinking of starting the scenerio in 1943 so in essence only half of the naval build up will have taken place. All imput is welcome. Jersey John Here is a picture of what the o-class would have looked liked It would have been 40000 tons, carried 6 15 inch guns and had a top speed of 29 knots with a range of 12000 miles. Here is a line drawing of the P-class

The reason why they needed larger ships as commerce radiers was due to the lack of Oversea ports. DD's and CA's have a much shorter range than BB's and BC's. The Pocket BB's were great because they had a range of 17000 miles. The Scharnhorst class only had a range of 8000 (these are off the top of my head, might be a little off). Part of Plan Z called for the creation of the P class crusier, a cross between the Pocket BB's and the Scharnhorst class. It would have had 6 11 inch guns, light armor, but a top speed of 34 knots with a range 23000 miles :eek: The reason why Germany's fleet seems lopsided towards a confrontation doctrine is due to the fact that war came 4 years prior to when Hitler promised Raeder. The smaller ships, P-class were not laid down before the war started because they would have been laid down in 1940 and another batch in 1942 in order to be ready for 1944. Had Plan Z been completed there would have been 2 Bismarck class 6 H class - upsized Bismarcks 3 O class - suped up Scharnhorsts 12 P class 2 carriers 12 M class light crusiers The original Pocket BB's would most likely been retired or regulated to escourt duty (their false original purpose. A very balanced fleet with the Big boys forcing England to keep a large force at home which would allow the commerce Raiders to do there jobs. The need for crusiers and DD's to chase the commerce raiders around would in turn free up the subs to really have a field day. Of course the UK would have built up its fleet as well but to what extent is questionable. Even with a Plan Z completed they would still have over twice the size of a fleet which is what they wanted before WWI. I think I've gone far enough off topic here so I'll call it an end. BTW in SC2 I would also like to see delayed deployment of capital ship fleets. Maybe make it so they deploy at level 1 and you can only build them up 2 points every turn. This would simulate the long time it took to build ships.

The American BC class was the Alaska class. They made 32 knots and had 9 12 inch guns. Basically a mini Missouri. The Japanese had Battlecrusiers as well in WWII the Kongo class. Basically the German's were the only ones who could have benefited with BC's in WWII since they could as Jersey John pointed out they could defeat anything smaller and outrun anything bigger. A dozen Scharnhorst class ships with larger operational ranges could have played hell with the British in the early stage of the war. I agree that Hubert did a good job balancing the Naval powers; however,I hope more depth is added to naval power in SC2. Surface raiders would be nice

Well that causes problems as well. I took the crusier fleets to represent Heavy and Light crusiers. Surely everyone has to agree that the Scharnhorst and Hood class are more like BB's than they are like heavy crusiers. The German Pocket BB's can fall into the crusier catagory due to their small size and low armor. Also, it is apparent that the fighting ability does not play a part in the decesion. The French Bertange class is given BB status even though IRL both the Hood and Scharnhorst class would have had an easy time sinking them.

Also, if they represent more than one ship why are they not named as such? Why not have a English Home Fleet etc. instead of individual names?

Personally, I think the Scharnhorst class and the Hood should be represented by under strength BB units. In the modified games I play I change them to BB's but start them off at 8 instead of 10. I than force myself not to repair them past 8. Yes I know that the unit does not represent just one ship although it is my opinion they should, but than we would need naval stacking and we all know how debatable stacking is. This Naval unit system is weird though because with research you can make your BB's upgrade to 15 strength units. Where does the extra 5 units come from? Are they new ships added to the counter? If so why do you need research to add them?

I think the choice should be up to the player. So what if France cannot support itself on Algeria or Syria? Vichy is pretty easy to over run if you declare war on it right after the fall of France anyway. Maybe the French can pull some troops out the southern part and eventually threaten Italin North Africa (of course their will be an extra row of hexes down there ). However who gets to make the choice? The allies or the Axis?

I love this idea. I hope it makes the next SC.

I for one would like to see a WWI SC come out. I think it would be very workable. I wouldn't mind seeing a civil war varient come out either. Of course this would take more work, but an easy to use and fun Civil war game is hard to find. I have both the seria titles but would quickly buy a SC type one.

There is always SC2 All your points are excellent JerseyJohn. I for one hope SC2 will be global so that the player will be able to receive the full weight of US industrial output and be able to decide what resources go where. A Global SC2 would also make the USA harder to invade, open up North Africa to its full potential, and possibly give the Russian Siberian army something to do while they are waiting to be transferred.

I am not saying that the US would have sued for peace in real life. They most likely would fight on. However I feel that them sueing for peace and going back to neutral is more historic than out right surrendering and being occupied. As for them being vunerable to another invasion, add this to my idea. Once the USA goes back to neutral it is awarded with an army on every hex in its teritory. Since it can no longer go back to war the big force just sits there in case the Axis is stupid enough to go after them again. So what an axis sucessful invasion of North America would accomplish is knocking the US out of the War for good. It would not effect play balance and IMO be more historical than the Axis taking over all the USA by just taking Maine.

How about this for a new USA suggestion? When the Axis takes over the US, a message pops up saying the USA has sued for peace. Following that all Axis forces are "magically" transported to the coast of France (Like when Vichy is created) and America goes back to being neutral and stays that way for the west of the war. Germany gets no plunder but no longer has to worry about USA influence. I think this would be a much more realistic approach given the fact that the Axis could in no way hope to garrison the USA while still conducting a war in Europe. What do yall think?

I invaded with Italy once after taking Iraq in order to open up another front against the Russians since the German offensive was bogging down. Sadly the turn after I invaded the USSR flooded turkey with troops (Operated them around the cities) and put me on the defensive to keep them out of the Balkins and Iraq

I totally agree about surface raiders. It would give some reason for Germany to buy surface ships.

While on Vichy, I think it should be the option of the Axis player if it is created at all. Why do I have to create a Vichy if I plan on attacking it the next turn anyway??

I vote a big YES

Some good points that I agree with, especially about operating Navy units out of Norway. As of now the only real way to break out ships is a channel dash. It would be nice to simulate a German breakout but the Question is why bother? SC is a great game but it does not portray the battles in the Atlantic at all realistically. The only time the Kriegsmarine is useful in SC is when it is used as cannon fodder to distract UK forces when going for Sea Lion. There is no point in breaking out the Bismarck into the Atlantic because there is nothing for it to do there. It cannot commerce raid! And unlike its historical counterpart it cannot out run anything so trying to harass the British capital ships is suicide. I have had fun with the German navy after creating a Full Campaign that started with an upgraded Scharnhorst and Gnesinau as Battleships, the Tirpitz and Bismarck in harbor at strength 6 to simulate fitting out, 4 cruiser fleets to represent the K,Nurnberg,Hipper, and Graf Spee class cruisers, and the Graf Zeppelin for good measure. I also added some ships to the RN for play balance and up graded the Hood to BB status. It was a load of fun to employ Adm. Scheer's WWI strategy and try to lore away a few RN ships at a time and than sink them with my small German navy. However that has little to do with the topic at hand. I am all in favor of improving the war at sea in SC but I'm not sure if it is worth the effort if the German Navy can't accomplish anything once it breaks out. If by chance German Battleships are give a movement bonus and can commerce raid, it is a different story. How about a new Commerce Raiding Unit that is only available to Germany?

I agree

Only problem with this idea is if the Axis invades Spain. The allies could effectively open up an European front without having to land troops. I'd rather create a Suez city and allow 1 unit to be built there each turn.

I wonder if Stalin felt the same before Barbarossa. Never said it would have been succesful, only possible. If you throw in the idea that the Axis invades after dropping a few A-bombs, the Idea become a lot less Scifi but that has nothing to do with this post or game

I would agree except the US would have to get these MPPS before the AXIS landed their troops (ie the turn where Axis Transports show up along the coast). Otherwise the US would not be able to buy their new units for lack of places to put them.

I don't think that this is really a Human v Human issue. A good allied player could easily prevent an early invasion of the US by sending the RN out to sink the German transports who most likely could not have a heavy escort unless the Italians have broken out of the Med. In a way it forces the RN to patrol the Atlantic to watch out for Axis ships, which by the way is what most of their time was spent doing. I think it is more of an AI issue since the AI never sends UK help to the US.

It seems that everyone assumes that the Germans would try to land in Boston and force an invasion like the US did at Normandy. Whose to say that by the time the Axis did try such an "impossible" act they wouldn't already have bases set up in the UK, Greenland, or South America? Why does the attack have to come from the Atlantic, why not the Gulf of Mexico? What if Japan won the Battle of Midway and had taken Alaska and invaded Hawaii which forced the US to fight a two front War on its home soil? Very improbable yes, impossible no. This is not possible to represent in the current SC but maybe in a future one. As for this one, does no one have thoughts on my ideas to dissuade an early invasion of the US? Which are America "transferring west coast forces" like the soviets transfer Siberian Army and declaring war once transports are spotted of the coast?

If a row was taken off the top and put on the bottom it would almost guarantee the impossibility of a German Navy break out into the North Atlantic. What is needed is more rows on top and bottom. As of now it is nearly impossible to get the German Navy to ports in France. One has to have air superiority and attempt a Channel Dash. In reality most of the German ships broke out by going north or south of Iceland (which would also make another nice addition). It would be nice to see more map hexes to the North as well as to the South in the next version of SC

Perhaps in a future patch or most likely the next SC, we can see an expanded map that incorporates more of North America. This would make the US easier to defend and maybe allow the axis to invade Canada and fight there way into the US. Better yet, an invasion could be launched from Mexico! As for the current situation, I think the US, no matter its entry status, should at least declare war on the Axis the moment transports reach its sure. Maybe even get a boost in forces to account for all the troops that would be transferred to the immediately, similar to when the USSR transfers its Siberian Army. This would allow the AI to set up a landing blockading force and the US navy a crack at the Axis transports. It would also deter an Eraly invasion from the Axis. The Axis player whould have to wait until he at least took canada and had built up a substantial air force there to destroy the US troops defending the coast. As for the Nazis not being able to launch an attack against the US, this is most likely true if one follows a historical timeline. However, like many on this forum have stated, the main joy from this game comes from the ability to rewrite history. When I play SC I base my decisions on what I would have done, not pretend I'm Hitler. My panzers role into the Ukraine as liberators (no Russian partisans and I have members of the Jewish faith fighting under Rommel to retake their holy land from the Imperialistic British. With a little different leadership, who knows what the Third Reich could have accomplished. Therefore instead of making the claim that the US and Canada should never be invaded, lets try to think of ways to make them more realistic to knock out!