SeaMonkey

Ohh ....and JJR... what are islands surrounded by? No sustenance in those marine farms.....right? I mean absolutely no food comes from the oceans..... they are...just..liquid deserts!..... or I guess for some ....desserts!

Well JJR let's hypothesize! How about we say yes, no value at all and in hindsight, which you seem to have a profusion of, you're correct. But say for instance one of those bypassed islands, one of the worthless ones that continued to function due to submarine resupply, had a seaplane or patrol boat, or some other means(like people) of detecting an enemy vessel coming within range. Now just to theorize...what if that vessel happen to be the "Indianapolis" carrying an A-Bomb to another of those worthless islands with staged B-29s for the delivery. Happens in this fantasy...so to speak....those guys on that deserted island of no value got the message out, or did something about it themselves and they captured or destroyed that device? I mean Coast-Watchers are just that ...."A Fantasy"...never happened, couldn't be done. But its fun hypothesizing....ehh?

I'm not so sure about all this as I reach March of 45 against this AI. I finally was able to get AT 2 and Naval tech 2 and upgrade my TACs as well as my CVs, the five that are left in ports. With this, and the production Q of massed infantry ready for deployments, I was able to get some relief from those marauding BBs and jet carrying CVs. The Reds are being held in Manchuria(the greatest Japanese MPP base) from making too much progress. It's still awhile till 46, so we'll see what happens, but this Allied AI isn't seemingly so omnipotent.

Don't want to derail this thread, but I wanted to thank everyone for their considerations and one other thing. Through this event, as trying as it was, for it started months ago as supposedly a minor remedial surgery, there was solace for me in escape, in those times my Dad rested peacefully. That distraction was SC and this forum. It allowed that trangression from reality that we all need from time to time, and it was there for me and I want you all to remember I appreciated each and everyone of you for that escape.

Actually Blashy, the islands did have military value. The airfields were used to shift assets in support of offensive and defensive naval operations. But perhaps greater than that there was a psychological impact and that was security. Grant you, it may have been a false sense, but never the less important in the minds of man. As I've stated before, it was actually this circumstance that caused the Midway planning and execution, refering to the strike from "Shangri-La". How do we incorporate this into the game? Do we all agree:rolleyes: that security is truly a matter of perspective...mind set? It is a consequence and it can be represented in physical means. Here's how! The outer islands represent buffer bands to intruders, just like Stalin thought the Baltics, Balkans, and E. Poland were. When you insight the people of a country with that physical buffer they have emotions, mostly security, real or not, they tend to be more productive in that comfort as a result. So...we have IT and PT techs at work in SC. I think the majority of this forum can figure it out from here.:cool:

Understand scotts, currently I'm in the process of burying my Dad. My Mom will need a lot of attention in the coming days so my interaction on this mod will be intermittent. I've been on my laptop for a long time now, it hooks up wirelessly in hotspots and the times I'm at work I use our WAN, so most of my posting has been done away from my home library and internet account. I've been in this state of transition for quite awhile now but there is light at the end of the tunnel finally.....but its still hard to commit. I said I would assist but if your timeline is not flexible then perhaps you should seek help from other sources. My email at work is btaylor@camincargo.com and at home bradtap@aol.com I'll try to look into some of the deployment configurations this next week, but I warn you, I have a massive list of higher priorities in conjunction with a 24/7 business, not to mention the incessant requests from other human beings for help. Its very difficult to accomodate everyone and everything but I try to share as much as possible. Most likely the degree of assitance will equate to me providing guidance and ideas to resolve issues, with brief flurries of actual detailed input. Sorry, that's the best I can offer.

I agree Tim, but usually when I'm playing an H to H game, I run another game in duplicate. Of course not knowing my opponents moves, I try to model what I think he would do and mirror his prior moves that I have observed. Using this strategy I can move forward a few turns into the future to see what may develop or may not which ultimately dictates what my real move would be. I also am able to conclude what the game scripts will present me with. I guess you could say I'm wargaming the wargame.

Sure, I can assist.

Actually Ludi, I see this as more of an asset than detrimental to the game. How else would you like to simulate the "unknown" consequences for decision making that the original WW2 participants felt? Decisions in life can never be fully predicted, there is always an unexpected intangible at work no matter how definitive the odds have been calculated. Even though I know that the results from actions or inactions of the players of SC can be ascertained with ultimate certainty, humans still have the ability to forget and so they will recommit mistakes of the past gameplay they may have known at one time or the other. In this instance I believe the complications, undocumented or not, assist in a more accurate presentation of WW2 conditions.

One more idea before rack-time. If certain islands are left with strong enough occupation forces perhaps a condition_position script would delay the entry of US reinforcements. Again the rationale would be these delayed units from the USA build Q would be allocated for neutralizing these Japanese dispositions. Historically I would pull from the extensive raids that reduced Truk to irrelevance as an example.

Scotts, actually I think getting the historical deployments correct for this "High Tide" scenario wouldn't be all that difficult. Course some of the unit names would have to be changed(incorrect), as we need to protect the innocent. Seriously though, a full scale campaign with the Aleutians and Midway successfully occupied would be a nice beginning for that balanced contest many of us may like as an alternative to Z.

Okay I've been thinking about a friction value for bypassing islands. Perhaps not all islands are worth assessing a rub factor, but maybe the larger the island chain or the size of the garrison could increase the attrition cost to enemy combatants if they leave to many in their rear. See this was one of the things I had in mind when I suggested a communication net for the Pacific theater, although the down side is another program layer for HC and the AI. Now the way the attrition cost is applied would be something like the way stormy conditions sometimes cause damage to naval vessels or the sudden pop-up of partisans. Think of it as patrol craft of nominal size or operations on a smaller scale then would be modeled in a normal SC strategic scale based from these bypassed islands. Still thinking, but threw this one out there for comments.

I'm with you on this scotts. This would be a perfect beginning for a what if game where the Japanese were successful at taking Midway(the high tide). Its not that farfetched and it would bring the whole map into the playing arena instead of what OpZ represents. Victory conditions could be adjusted accordingly.

I have a bit of a dilemma here! OK, so maybe I was a bit premature with my statement about the total demise of the IJN. I was able to port 5 CVs and upgrade the ports to level 2 AA. They are strewn around the Sea of Japan, East China and Yellow Seas, but within striking distance of the Home Islands. So far rain and storms have masked them against the evil USA AI although USN Super BBs are very close to these ports. Problem is, they have been decimated and need repair and aircraft replacements. There is nothing to screen them, at least anything that would do them any good. Here's the kicker, I'm getting around 650 MPPs a turn and can probably rebuild them in three turns, but my losses are mounting in Burma and Manchuria and I face the question of whether to rebuild the lost Armies and SNLF for Homeland deployment. I have wall to wall Tac Naval Bombers based in Okinawa and Taiwan, HQ supported with fighter, level 2, cover. I have maxed research with emphasis in Naval tech and advanced fighters but only have level 2 in both along with LR2. The USN sharks are circling their prey and I'm unable to be effective against these BBs, it absolutely cost too much to repair my air groups after attacking them, but I can take out Amis Carriers. Do I.....gather the ground forces or replenish the Carriers? Winter 44/45 is looming.

Thanks scotts, I'll take that advice. I've got some very experienced units with IW & AT 2 plus mobility and HQs in China and Burma. I'm going to try to get them home to face off with the Amis. Its not going to be pretty!

You know JC, this would provide an incentive for the Japanese to extend into the South Pacific as a threat to that simulated lend-lease corridor, which is historically accurate as I remember.

See that's just it, Japan can never be sure USN will allow them anything, essentially USA will dictate. With everything the Japanese have to manage their plans can easily be derailed, seems to me.:confused: The essence of having the outer islands is the buffer from the USA dictation of events early and delaying the later inevitability of destruction. If Japan chooses to assert the buffer then obviously it detracts from the other arenas and she loses the benefit of Burma/India, Australian conquests, but why would she do that? The buffer...lacks the historical benefit, the western map locations offer so much more, hence my original hypothesis, how do we increase their importance? Generally, I hope my theory is irrelevant with regards to SC PTO vs the other Pacific oriented games I've played. But just in case, I wanted to address it early.

Does having Australia have an impact on Japanese victory conditions(early victory)? What if the US just decides to go right at the Home islands ignoring everything else in 44? I'm by no means an expert at the game idiosyncracies but it seems to me the Home Islands must be defended at all costs. And again, the impression I get is that nothing can stop a determined USN effort by 44 to deny that success. Of course ...I could be wrong.

I'm planning ahead here. I've only played one AI game, still in the midst of, actually. I'm remembering other Pacific games I've played where the garissoning of the outer island rings was an issue for the Japanese player as there is no incentive. Same here? They were historically used as outposts for the Empire, but a savy Allied player will not attempt early operations against them waiting until his fleet is unstoppable. So what to do? Suggestions welcome. I've already stated one idea of the MPP value, but that is not realistic IMO. So...how about a morale and/or readiness adjustment for successful occupations of these outlier islands. Think of it as having an impact on the Home Front as the people formulate their visions of how the war effort is going and passing it on to their soldiers. Perhaps after a group of islands is thoroughly garrisoned there could be a slight MPP adjustment also, to simulate the extra effort the war industries at home would see by high morale of their workers.

Right scotts, the AI is pummelling me, how embarassing. OK....I'm a little shell shocked at the moment, but I'm recovering......my senses are returning even though my ears are still ringing. I've consulted with ...??...higher powers. New plan... I'm going to get abunch of units in the build Q ready to deploy at a moments notice. I will place my best, most experienced forces in places where they will not be so susceptible to naval bombardments for counter-attacks. The new units will fill the voids when air/BB bombardment disperse the deployed, the home islands will be virtually impregnable. Zieg Heil! whoops...wrong game....Banzai!

Something to think about LC! Its early still and I've not really gotten into depths of PTO yet. But with this, .....dare I say it....BBull Rush, as the Japanese player I'm feeling like that wagon train surrounded by Indians here in the home islands late in 44. Kamikazes are ineffectual against these behemoths and I can't afford to repair my airforces. There is no IJN left, even ports represent no sanctuary against the guns of these incredible battleships:mad:. At least my anti-air can somewhat degrade the US airstrikes. I've been thinking the one counter would be for Japan to get Naval Tech 3 themselves, but with the expense of upgrading, and the need for anti-air, controlling the Russians and then Chinese partisans............:confused: well it seems I'll be going down for the count in my first AI game at Expert +2. Don't know how I could make another Summer with 45 looming....pray for cyclones????:eek:

Not hard to know where to build fortifications, that's how you keep "them" at bay. One thing I have noticed is that USN BBs at naval tech level 3 are pretty much invincible. Its their bomber defense value that renders most air attacks to expensive to initiate. So they just marade around taking out all IJN assets by the summer of 44 and there are a lot of them. BBs can take out ships in port and snuff out land units with bombardment if you leave them exposed. I think they are a bit overly potent, especially bomber defense teched up. I believe they should start at maybe one or zero for USN. Maybe ports should have a defensive upgrade against surface bombardments like artillery/shore batteries. By 44 they were highly effective anti-air platforms and that can be modeled with naval tech 3. I would also like to see more incentive for Japan to take more islands and spread out like historically. I realize there was not any economical reason to garrison them, but as the Japanese player you really don't use much of the eastern part of the map. I would never push my naval units into the Solomons, way too risky or too expensive operating air cover in and transport HQ support. Perhaps the ports should be worth 5 MPPs each. Overall though I believe things unfold pretty much as they did with Japan not able to field a fleet by mid 44.

JJR has a good point here, the Japanese player makes a mistake if he thinks he can historically spread out and have any chance in the end game. Now I'm only into the summer of 44(my first AI game since SC1) and I'm still protecting the inner sanctum pretty well even though the Allies are obviously "tech heavy". Now the only observation pertaining to the Allied tech edge that is somewhat questionable is I have USN destroyers taking out my BBs. I guess I could justify that by thinking perhaps the Allies have obtained "smart" torpedos.

We've had this discussion before, ie. airpower vs ground unit elimination. There are factors for adjustment such as mobility(AP), readiness, supply, and morale due to successful air attacks, just one problem with implementation. We will have to have Hubert code amphib attacks from sea tiles, else successful landings will be largely impossible because your opponent will simply fill all the land tiles with units.

The Red Army is not completely unmanageable, at least in the summer of 44, but things are still touchy. What's a real kicker is the USA is landing all over the place, no big deal since I did not spread out into the Pacific Islands as there is really no MPP benefit from doing so. And that's just it, it seems the map beckons the Japanese player to dilute his forces, don't fall for it. Garrison only a few outlying islands for Air ops with your bombers who have LR and can spot many tiles out in naval terms. You can keep an eye on the Allied naval movements this way, but as has been stated LR is a must tech. Heck LR was always mucho important in all SC versions from my perspective. You see first..you kill first. Among other things, I've noticed that US subs don't seem to be historically as active. I invested in anti-sub tech early but did not really need the two advances I got, as US has only sent in a couple, maybe 3 patrols. All decimated...I might add, but they did get to me for a few MPPs. Does anyone invest in IT or PT for Japan? Infrastructure for that matter also? I've got just about all land and air units built and even a couple extra subs, been thinking about an extra CV or two, but I should have done that earlier. Naval losses to this point are only two CA squadrons and one BB, but I'm feeling the Allied CV heat!