Biltong
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Posts posted by Biltong
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Hi Michael,
I see your site does not feature SA forces, yet
Here’s a comment you might find interesting.
“On 1 Feb 43 the 6th South African Armoured Division was formed….On 24 May 44 the 24th Guards Brigade came under SA command. It was to fight with the South Africans until Feb 45 and as a result of this additional strength the 6th South African Armoured Division was probably the most powerful formation in Italy. The Division fought on in Italy until the German surrender in 1945, sustaining some 3,543 casualties.
“The Armed Forces of WWII” Andrew Mollo, Orbis Publishing London, 1981 P 139.
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Nope - Simply too easy - no reward for that - all in a day's workOriginally posted by Snowbart:...
Question time: Do you not gain any experience points for destroying guns(AT, field, mortars, etc.)? I know you do for knocking out pillboxes, but what about just regular guns?
....
The premise I used, is what would you get a medal for (as an infantry man).
[ April 26, 2003, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Biltong ]
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Thought of the same thing, but I want to hold on a bit longer. You might just be an exception or very good/carefull with your armor... Once I hear the same thing from a number of guys with 20+ battles behind them, I'll change the rules. More than likely just up the minimum kills needed to earn points.Originally posted by Scarhead:...The heavies are both just above 100 now. With some caution (or aux in front) they seldom die. IIc is at 76. Even my attached 231/8 is crack now...
But CO did it, too - 61 points now, a squad has 65. Others are less lucky.
Maybe award only 1/2 point for each tank, give another 1/2 point for guns, halve the points for inf.
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Hi OBJ,Originally posted by OBJ:Biltong-
I'm using excel and so modified the BG tab to calculate after replacements experience applying my formula.
I've added a tab to calculate and record unit potential and starting experience, and leadership trait potential.
I've added another tab to track unit/leader progress toward and crossing of experience/trait award thresholds.
I use the editor before each battle to set individual leader traits and unit experience.
Part of the reason I changed the replacement system was my armor gaining experience two or three times as fast as my infantry. My infantry keeps taking casualties and has few opportunities to knock out enemy vehicles or pillboxes. On the other hand my armor takes few casualties and has more opportunities to take out enemy vehicles, armor, and pillboxes. My impression is the casualties suffered are historically accurate but the lagging infantry experience is not. As I mentioned in the previous post, it's my thought the old system greatly understates the effect squad/team/crew veterans have on future unit performance.
Won't you mail me your sheets - It sounds like something I could use.
I'm also took note of your exp comments.
But isn't it rather a question of the armor gaining exp too easily?
The losses on the East Front was so horrendous that through the years the quality of the German troops (as well as the Soviets) declined. With exceptions of course.
Thanx for the feed-back.
Biltong
[ April 24, 2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]
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SeaHawk answered this already... Just to confirm:Originally posted by Snowbart:Question time for the newbie:
I was forced into an Emer. Reorg. I took the two remaining crew from my PzIIC and ditributed one to my PzIII and one to my 251/1 HT, bringing them up to full crew. According to the rules, since this unit has below 50% of crew, it is "lost forever". Does this mean the purchase points for that unit have vanished and I just use new attached points to buy another unit, if possible?
Also, I used one of my squads to replace a couple of casualties from other units, leaving this squad with 7 men as the depleted unit. I know i will move it off the board at start of the battle, and that it will get normal replacements after this battle. I suppose when calculating the after replacement experience, I would use 7 for the number of men left and 3 for number of replacements?
All Battle Group units, including armor are replaced during each normal replacement.
As for your 2nd question re the 7 men marched off the map - correct: 7 + 3 replacements
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Hi Joachim,Originally posted by Scarhead:....
Now there is one question : Am I allowed to repair my sIG for the next battle (immediate assault vs a town, I selected the one from "White Wave scen" - and I got only 50 in arty) or do I have to make do without it?
Great AAR's
As the rules stand - your sIG is OK (not abandoned or KO'd) and can join the battle. This is the 2nd time this question has come up and I've just scheduled the following change for 42 South v2.2:
Immobilized vehicles – Normal battle die-roll: 1-8 to be able to be repaired in time; Immediate and Counter Attack 1-3 to be repaired in time.
You can impliment it now, if you want
Couple of questions from my side:
You seem to be winning very easily - Have you upgraded yourself after winning 6 battles in a row (Note 8)?
BTW - What player exp are you playing on?
Do you find that your armor crews gain experience too fast in comparison with your Company. Someone else has remarked on this?
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Ok guys - this thread's getting full - take it here -
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Had another look and you're right. I'm an old programmer - used to the If...not... type statements. Most people will find it a bit confusing.Originally posted by Snowbart:Biltong,
I read that line over and over again, and to be honest, it could be made a little clearer.
Problem is, the alternative is not much better and it's a lot longer: listing all the things that are ok and if they are all ok, then go ahead and buy air.
I was just trying to be funny with the 'pissed' statement - no harm meant.
For me? That's private between consenting adultsI am using just the standard rules, the pencil and paper deal, not Biltaid. So what does Biltaid do for you?SeaHawk - you want to tell him?
Hmmm... Stabbing... I just tick the numbers as I go down the rows. Stabbing does sound a lot more exciting. I think I'll try that for a while.Just bought a 10 sided die so I could quit stabbing my pencil with closed eyes at the random number sheet! :cool:
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DoneOriginally posted by Seahawk-vfa201:Time to add to the BCR news and rules a statement on BilAid ...
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Ok guys - this thread's getting full - take it here -
[ April 23, 2003, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]
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Biltong’s Campaign Rules
41 South v2.2 and 42 South v1.1
Player Guide v2.2
A complete walk-through of the first battle, the more difficult rules explained in some detail and lots of lovely pictures
BiltAid (41 South v2.2 compliant)
For those of you who hate paperwork
SeaHawk's Magic Java tool will have you dieing in no time BCR Map Packs with over 220 maps!!
All of the above - Get it here:
or here
Scooby's Site - including PDF versions for the non-MS compliant individuals
If this is the first time you hear about BCR… :confused:
BCR is a set of Campaign rules that enable you to play a series of battles from Barbarossa to Berlin.
BCR 41 & 42 South is the set of Rules covering the months June 41 to December 42 in the Army Group “South” Theatre of Operations.
Operation Barbarossa erupts on 22 June 1941 and you and your Battle Group storm through the Soviet ranks through the long months of summer in the steppe and the mud and rain of October. You take your men all the way to Rostov, Khar’kov and the Crimea before the incredible cold of November halt you in your tracks. Then the Soviet counter attacks start.
You are the commanding officer of a company of German Mechanized Infantry and some armor that you take through the whole CMBB time frame. As you lead your company and armor into Russia most of the parameters of the battles are dictated by historically accurate data, e.g. on the 4th week of October 41 it suddenly turns bitterly cold and the German advance freezes to a halt.
You, your men and armor gain or lose experience throughout the Campaign. You start off with Regular troops, but after a year it becomes obvious that the quality of your replacements are getting worse... How your men grow in experience will depend on how they fare in each battle… how many men did they lose; did they get rattled; did they take out a MG pillbox or maybe even a tank?
You yourself, as the CO, learn and slowly gain or lose Favor with your own commanding officer. If you screw up, you lose favor... Favor that you could have used to avoid launching an Immediate Assault straight after your last battle without even getting reinforcements.
You also get a Task Force to support your Battle Group: Infantry, Support, Vehicles, Armor, Arty or Air, depending on factors such as who assaults or attack who, weather etc.
With designed scenarios you quite often have ‘balanced’ forces, but with BCR you’ll get the real thing: Sometimes you know who your opponent is; sometimes you are facing unknown odds. Sometimes you have an easy go of it - hammering low on ammo and decimated green Partisans, but later that night you might face a counter-attack from 3 companies of Guards Mech, before you had chance to get reinforcements... You have to think on your feet and learn to retreat when necessary... no more heroic defenses or assaults till the last man!!
Your men's survival is of the utmost importance... even to the extent that you'll rather lose a battle than lose too many men! The objectives still matter – you still want to win, but not at the cost and risk of decimating your men. Here realism rules for the first time.
As a learning tool this is unsurpassed.... You learn to think and act like a real commander... If you think you’ve got your tactics down pat,
– Think again… You will get into situations that you’ve never encountered before… and never will with normal scenarios and QB’s. BCR is just for yourself… the battle is between yourself and an enemy who grows stronger every year… You will have to become a better commander for you and your men to survive till the end.
If you have any questions - post in this thread and I or one of the old hands will answer you within a day or 2.
Enjoy!!
Biltong
[ April 23, 2003, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]
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That's the problem with a ton of small printOriginally posted by Seahawk-vfa201:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Biltong:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Seahawk-vfa201:
...There is no check in the rules (or BiltAid) for weather for Air support.
...
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The casualties parameter has nothing to do with battle casualties.Originally posted by Cpt Kernow:one simple simple qyestion.
I use biltaid.
The axis task force has a casualties tab. I cant see the purpose of this. I am cataloguing my casualties using the battle group fields, if I have to counter attack immediately and have casualties and have not been reinforced then I move the appropraite platoons of the map (as instructed.) If I set up the battle with axis casualties set say to 20% this is going to impact my main battle group, not just the task force. How can I seperate the casualties in my task force from casualties in my main group using the battle generator (could see how using the scenario editor but still only using ver1.2)
Cheers.
Kernow.
This parameter is mostly dictated by weather: Snowed in/vehicles stuck in mud/lost units/frostbite victims etc.
And the time of the year:
Which historical factors were at play, such as a Soviet couter offensive resulting in low supplies of petrol/disorganization etc.
See the 1st line in 23 (Axis) Casualties: "These are mostly casualties of mud & cold."
So don't try and negate them, unless you want an easy game
You cannot 'cut out' the Casualties parameter using the SE... The only way is simply to not set it.
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That's the problem with a ton of small printOriginally posted by Seahawk-vfa201:...There is no check in the rules (or BiltAid) for weather for Air support.
...
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I think you did not read the modifiers in Parameter 34 Air:Originally posted by Snowbart:...So of course I blasted the hell outta everything
Whatcha think?
If Time not Mid Day/Dawn or Weather not Clear ...go to Large Arty (33) and roll again.
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Ahh - Some excellent ideas here - type of rules that I would like to play myself. Might be too detailed for most guys though.Originally posted by OBJ:...
Leader traits - I've tried a system of leadership trait 'potential' tied to unit experience points.
At the beginning of the campaign, or when coming in as a replacement, leader units roll for leader trait 'potential.' In each of the four traits at each of the two levels, leader units are assigned either 'no bonus possible' or a 'bonus award threshold' in terms of unit experience. In the case of leaders with a real talent in any trait, the bonus award threshold may be less than the starting experience, therefore awarded for the first battle. This system pre-supposes that individual leaders have strengths in different traits that emerge over time with experience. I’ve developed a formula based on unit experience potential, see below. So far bonus award thresholds have ranged from 10 to 39 unit experience points. Results have also included no bonus at one or both levels.
I'm convinced I need to award 'leader trait bonus award points’ faster than unit experience points, but don't even have a formula worked out yet for a trial.
Unit experience and experience levels - I'm trying a system in which each unit at the beginning of the campaign, or upon entering as a replacement, rolls for it's experience potential, veteran, crack, or elite. In this experiment, units have a 60% chance of topping out as veterans, 30% as crack and 10% as elite. Using this system I've left the threshold for veteran at 25, but set crack to 45 and elite to 60 on the theory that the men in the squad representing this potential will realize it after 20-30 battles. This system prevents the entire unit from becoming elite over time and reflects variations in the quality of the 'drivers' in each squad.
I also roll at the beginning of the campaign or when a unit enters as a replacement for unit starting experience, which I set at anything between 10 and 20. This allows again for variation in individual units reflecting the effectiveness of each squad.
Integrating replacements - I recall there was a lot of debate over this in the BCR group, one of the concerns being people throwing away squads with low experience hoping to roll for veterans. It’s also my impression the German Army did a very good job of integrating combat replacements. Through out the war units were routinely withdrawn to allow the cadre of veterans to train the replacements before going back into the line. Even without this very successful practice of integrating replacements, the veterans naturally have a lot more affect on a squad’s performance that replacements do.
For these reasons I'm currently experimenting with two items combined.
First, based on the BCR replacement quality probabilities, I've set a fixed replacement ‘bonus’ for each month; Jun-Aug replacement bonus = 0, Sep-Oct= 3 , Nov-Dec = 1.
Second, I’ve tinkered with the ‘experience after replacements’ formula.
For casualties < 30%, after replacements experience= after battle experience,
Casualties >30%, < 50%, after replacement experience =.85*after battle experience+ replacement experience bonus
Casualties >50% < 60% =.75*after battle experience+2*replacement experience bonus
Casualties >60% < 80% =.65*after battle experience+3*replacement experience bonus
Casualties > 80% < 90% =.60*after battle experience+4*replacement experience bonus
If the unit’s wiped out, new unit experience = .5*after battle experience+5*replacement experience bonus. No company commander worth anything is going to allow a whole squad of replacements to go into battle without giving them at least one or two seasoned veterans to lead them.
This system of integrating replacements is something I just recently worked up and has not been thoroughly play-tested at all.
Hope these ideas give the BCR crew something to chew on.
Thanks for all the great work you and the crew have done. Hope to see a campaign in the engine re-write. Until then, it's BCR all the way.
They all go on the list... Definitely a lot to chew on. Once you have them more refined and set, do me a favour and post here or mail me. Definitely something here.
I esp like the Leadership & Experience Potential.
Did you modify the Battle Group sheet to cater for this or are you using a seperate sheet?
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Hi Snowbart,Originally posted by Snowbart:Any thoughts on my above post on AIR UNITS??
I suspect that one of the Time or Weather parameters were inadvertently set wrong or left at random. I just did a quick test and everything's fine on my side.
Try generating another QB with the same parameters - you should be able to see what the previous settings were.
Let me know what you find.
Biltong
[ April 22, 2003, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]
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I like this - more logic. Wish there was a way of rewarding specific leadership qualities proven in combat. But how do you prove that the HQ was good at hiding himself and his men for the last x battles?Originally posted by Yeknodathon:As an alternative I allow the following:
Elite 8x HQ abilities
Crack 8x HQ abilities
Veteran 6x HQ abilities
Regular 4x HQ abilities
Green 2x HQ abulities
Conscript 0x HQ abilities
...but you have to choose from the abilities given when you first gain or accept new core force HQs. Not enough to choose? - get a free choice!
Alex
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Well – I for one hope BFC never provides a campaign. It gives me strange pleasant feeling in my nether regions knowing I’m burdening hundreds? of guys with hours of non-sensical paperwork. Just a pity Seahawk has brought out his Biltaid program and automated the whole bloody thing… Takes away half the tingling feelingOriginally posted by Aaron:...It would be sad if BCR went from a "way to play a campaign while waiting for BFC" to an "excuse why BFC doesn't need to do a campaign."
Aaron
[ April 22, 2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Biltong ]
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Right - all the way to buying just the MG or mortar etc in that Battalion. So when I note down my Task Force Offerings I do it very fast and rough. If I see there's a lot of MG's or platoons of a certain type I don't bother counting them since I know I'll only be able to buy a couple.Originally posted by Schoerner:...Just for my clarification:
so if the computer bought a Battailon and i don't have enough points to buy it, i'm allowed to buy the exact single Company or Platoon being part of this Battaillon, right?
Yes again - An't I niceSo does that mean, if BiltAid/BCR decided for i.e. an Infantry only battle, and i got points for armor category to spend, that i'm allowed to buy armor, although the computer was restricted to Infantry only, when it generated the Task Force?
You'll notice from the rules that the modifiers make it unlikely that you will get armor points if the Force Mix is Infantry, but it can happen.
So: You roll up an Infantry only battle to generate your task force - there are no tanks generated.
But when rolling up the points for your Task Force you are very lucky and get some Armor points. Now, since you did not have any armor generated, you can choose your own armor from the normal Unit Purchase List when you buy your units for the final 'Generate Real Battle'.
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No - The bulk of the changes are rule clarification. The only 'rule' change has to do with Favor gained re Prisoners. In 41 the two '**' are next to the HQ - with the note reading: '** These points are per HQ team'.Originally posted by Seahawk-vfa201:Biltong,
is the v2.3 going to change rolls and modifiers? That is, is there any significant change for BiltAid?
In 42 this changes - the '**' are moved up to the heading Prioner(s) ** and the Note now reads: '** These points are for each individual member of a HQ, squad or team.'
Subtle difference.
I'm trying not too change any modifiers. Rest easy I also send the new version out to the team, some time before I update it on the boards and announce it, to give the auto-guys time to update their programs.
Any new rules in 42 onwards will be implimented as an appendix that can be used or not (depending on the complexity/realism the player prefers).
What can be a problem for Biltaid players, is that these appendixes can be retrofitted to 41, if they want to use them...
I decided to bring out a couple of new rules for each 'new' year - to make the game more interesting as the years progress, but not to update the 'finished' years (so far 41) so as not to scare of new players with a whole host of rules the 1st time round.
Hmm - something to think about. I'm still waiting for the final patch, before I tackle these. 1st I'll do the straight SE option forJune 42 (ammo/exp/names etc) and then later (Jan 43) bring out the HQ leadership calcs. I think.Currently the one missing rule is the CO death section. BiltAid does not compute whether the CO is dead at all.
Concernign the suggestion on HQ experience. The HQ team (4 men) would be affected by the very fact of losing one or more men. The cohesive command experience would be reduced somewhat as the replacement(s) would have to integrate the command line. Experience should be lowered when losing even a single man. Maybe HQ (treated as for CO team) could see lesser experience loss if the killed/wounded man was not the leader after all (that is treat them similar to the CO unit) and suffer less experience loss wrt to other regular units if the roll determines the leader is still alive. One could argue that an officer might better integrate his HQ unit - hence be less of a penalty - than a platoon seeing 25% of its force replaced.
Biltong? I would indeed favor HQs and CO suffer a bit less from man loss (experience-wise) then regular units.
Your say? (and others of course)
Anyway, although via BiltAid rules can be many and complex, one has to think as well of players using pencil and paper. Too many rules/options/exceptions might turn BCR impossible to play without BiltAid.
I've got a couple of pages of ideas that's been mentioned over the months...
Good that you and Hobo are starting the discussion again... the time for coding these are getting closer.
[ April 21, 2003, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]
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No - you can buy/upgrade as many as you want up to a maximum of 3. E.g.: a couple of tank hunters and a sniper. There's no restriction in the rules of only 1 per battle.Originally posted by hobo:Rules Gurus -
I just got 160 points for attached units. Can I use this to buy more than one unit? For some reason I thought you could only aquire only one unit per battle but I cannot find that rule. Assuming you can only buy one unit, since there isn't any support or vehicle units that costs that much, do the extra points carry to the next battle?
Thanks,
Hobo
The idea - once again - is to give you a chance to play with units of your own choice. To get to know them etc. But since the points are normally so low, you'll end up playing with cheapy units you won't normally bother with - that's the idea - BCR's hidden teaching objective
As for the points you don't/can't use - they are lost for ever - alas!
[ April 21, 2003, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]
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Good ideas Hobo,Originally posted by hobo:BCR Fans - I have some modifications to HQ unit rules that I thought I would pass on for discussion.
I believe the experience of the platoon HQ is 99% dependent on the HQ leader. Thus, I cannot believe they would lose experience if a member that is not the leader is lost. To account for this using Biltaid, I calculate if the HQ leader is lost in combat using straight percentages (1 in 4 chance if a platoon HQ unit loses a man). If the leader is lost, I assume the whole unit is lost when entering in the data using Biltaid (one problem w/ this is emergency reorganizations are a little off). If the leader survives, I enter no lost men in Biltaid.
If I lose the Company commander, I pick one of the platoon commanders to take his place and reduce his experience level by one. I then generate a new platoon HQ unit to repace the one just promoted.
Also, I randomly add one leadership trait everytime a HQ unit gains experience.
Any thoughts on this system?
Regards,
Hobo
While this sounds silly, it has a big impact on the game play. I just lost two regular platoon leaders in the last battle. Both of them with tons of leader traits. I now have two of my platoon led by green LTs each with less traits than their predicessors.
There's been quite a bit of discussions on this subject some months ago and it's one of the modifications to implimented in 43. I'm bringing in a couple of changes each year, but in such a way that it can be retrofitted to previous years if the plyers want.
The HQ gaining a leadership quality everytime his exp increases, might be a bit fast...Maybe after every 4 or 5 battles? Or a die-roll/number of battles combination - e.g: After 3 battles you need to roll a 1 to gain a quality; after 4 battles less than 3; after 5 battles less than 5 etc.
The same gains could be implimented for all HQ's, not just the CO.
I would also like to give the HQ's a deserved quality: Command, Hiding etc depending on what happened in previous battles, but I can't think of a simple way of determining this. Maybe some of the players can come up with some ideas? Obviously the easy way, would be to make it a simple random die-roll, but...
Replacing the HQ with a platoon leader is also planned for, but I think the platoon leader will lose more exp than one. He would also, more than likely lose some of his leadership qualities, since he'll be a newbie at his more demanding job.
I'll be curious to hear what else you come up with - You've got me thinking
Biltong.
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Just did a test download from SuprS's site - It's all there. Have a look at the bottom of the Excel sheet(BCR rules) - the different tabs open up the different sheets: Favor, Battlegroup etcOriginally posted by Snowbart:...
Biltong, the only version of the Battle Group sheet I found was at Scooby's site and they're in pdf format. I wanted to import the BG sheet into excel and add a few lines for my attached units, but of course i can't import a pdf file into excel. Any suggestions?
SeaHawk's Magic Java tool will have you dieing in no time 
Biltong's Campaign Rules
in Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin
Posted
Give as much criticism/ideas as you can. I've got high hopes for these Battle Packs - they must be the cherrie on the campaign cake
Hmm - that's what I expected from the 'hot' playersAlso - 41 is obviously easier - things do get a bit stickier for the krauts as the East Front starts hotting up
Thanx for the feedback