c3k

I ordered Det 5 to run away so their presence wouldn't distort the test. The test was meant to see if the HQ, coming up from the rear in a Bulldog with 50 rounds of 40mm HEDP acquired from the Bulldog's complement of 320 rounds, could share ammo with Det 6 up on the roof. Instead, let's just watch Det 5... At start... Count the rounds: I could zoom in more, but it's 16 PPHE and 32 HEDP 5 Seconds into turn... 5 Seconds into turn, but a just a hair more than the 5 seconds above.... See the difference? Somehow, the HEDP increased in two distinct steps. It went from 32 to 62, a 30 round jump, then it went from 62 to 82, a 20 round jump. Something is wrong. Did the 620 rounds of HEDP from the rooftop pioneers somehow get transferred only AFTER Det 5 started running away? Huh? Det 5 made it to a Bulldog in the background. While on board the Bulldog, with NO orders of any sort, their ammo screen went BACK to 16 PPHE and 32 HEDP. I am thoroughly confused. Savegame available. Let's watch Det 6 next.

Okay, time to throw some pictures around. I ran several tests in the current battle I'm playing. I've used different GMG teams and Bulldogs, etc. Here are some non-intuitive results. First, the units involved in these pictures should be introduced. We have 6 Det, GMG up on a roof. With them are some assault pioneers. In a trench behind the house is 5 Det, GMG. Coming up from the rear is the GMG platoon HQ in a Bulldog. Here are their starting ammo loadouts: 5 Det: 16 PPHE, 32 HEDP 6 Det: 16 PPHE, 16 HEDP Pioneer: 620 HEDP. Yep, six hundred and twenty. They plundered 2 Bulldogs. HQ: 50 HEDP Okay, we see what they all have and where they're situated... Det 5... Det 6... Pioneer??? Next, we'll look at each unit in turn.

Yes, but what does BF.C refer to it as? (THAT was a funny movie. I hate to admit it, but at some point I wasted part of my life watching that. I wonder if I could've cured cancer had I focused on that, instead?) Ken

Patch?!? You're telling the man to PATCH?!? Pshaw. Ignore what he has said! Now that you've purchased CMSF, IMMEDIATELY purchase the next 3 add-on modules; Marines, British, and NATO. THEN buy the separate, stand-alone game based on the CMSF engine, CM:Afghanistan. Once all those games are out of your shaky, sweaty hands, then patch, then play. DON'T WASTE TIME! BUY THEM NOW!! Ken

Very true; GREAT game. But, this isn't right in a tactical simulation game. There needs to be some LOS/LOF fudges or workarounds. The one way nature of friendly vehicle LOF is on case. But this, similar to rooftop benefits against artillery, doesn't pass the "sniff" test. I am hopeful that it is a simple fix. It may be limited to units firing down through adjacent floors. I don't know. More testing? I'm willing to forego playing and run tests, but not if there is no interest in following up on this. Ken

Aye, they'll do that. What I was talking about was SHARING; when some happy bloke comes along trying to help them out and carries their ammo for them. When that happens, the ammo disappears. Forever. Poof. Gone. No more. The GMG guys start with 16 rounds of PP?? (the airburst stuff) and and 48 of HEDP. 64 total count. I _think_ they can ACQUIRE perhaps 20 more; something like that. The Bulldog comes with 320!!! So, for argument's sake, let's say the GMG guys are limited to 80-ish at a time. Here's the cycle... ACQUIRE up to 80ish, run out of the Bulldog, set up the weapon, fire away, run out of ammo. Crap! There's just the two of us! We'll BOTH have to run for ammo! Break the weapon down, run back to the Bulldog, ACQUIRE up to 80ish, run out of the Bulldog, set up the weapon, fire away, run out of ammo. Crap! There's just the two of us! We'll BOTH have to run for ammo! Break the weapon down, run back to the Bulldog, ACQUIRE up to 80ish, run out of the Bulldog, set up the weapon, fire away, run out of ammo. Crap! There's just the two of us! We'll BOTH have to run for ammo! Break the weapon down, run back to the Bulldog, ACQUIRE up to 80ish, run out of the Bulldog, set up the weapon, fire away, run out of ammo. Crap! Now the Bulldog's out of ammo. But wait! The OTHER Bulldog has ammo! If you're playing WeGo, I can guarantee that it will take one more turn than you thought for your GMG team to be fully entrained upon the Bulldog so they can do the ACQUIRE thing. Instead, since ANYONE can ACQUIRE the ammo, how nice if a bunch of lads decide to grab the rounds instead? If sharing that resource isn't allowed, why can they ACQUIRE it? I know, maybe they're a bunch of lightfingered Finsters. So, have your GMG guys shoot off all their ammo, and try to have anyone else get them some. Ken (Sorry for the whole cut and paste thing, but it was kind of fun!)

Oh, savegames available, both command phase and replay. BF.C???

If that's true, it would be VERY hard to schlep 320 40mm rounds out of the Bulldog, since all the platoon mates of the GMG are 2 man teams, either GPMG or GMG. They cannot carry more than several dozen at a time.

What happened? Well, let's watch the guys up above... Second floor shooters in "B", 2nd floor, are nailing at least "C" ground floor (possibly "D"). LOS/LOF from B2 to C1. Iffy, but we could possibly live with it... A close up... But what's this? Hits from WAY above? Okay, B6 to C1? Maybe I'm not seeing it right? I drew a red line along the gun barrel to get this... Finally, in case you think that's a one-off LOS, never to be repeated, here's the money shot: Tracers crossing from the Syrians up on B6 firing at A1. BF.C????

A picture is worth a thousand words. Here are 10,000. The Building Notice it is made up of 4 separate building tiles. Let's call them "A", "B", "C", and "D" from left to right. So the "E" in the word "DONE" is resting on a face of building "C". Kapisch? From the perspective of the poor bloody infantry... Looking at the interior, we can see that it could get dicey. Just look at all the windows and doorways... Yeah, THAT'S why I blasted in... Oooh, 3 separate assaults to overwhelm the buggers... That looks good up there, doesn't it?

In BF.C's defense, have you ever really looked at British trucks? Give me the GI issue any day. They did us a favor by not having British trucks. The GMG thing: in the overall scheme of life, it is unimportant. Within CMSF it is still very minor (all things considered). However, if there is a logic flaw, then I'd prefer that BF.C have the opportunity to examine it and correct it prior to the release of CM:N. Imagine if your poor para's up near Arnhem can't share their gammon bombs? THAT would be a catastrophe! The GMG "thing" also highlights a wee weakness in the UI. More on that later... Ken

Okay, I've tried again. At this point, I'm up to 5 tests. In no test has the ammo been shared. To verify that I'm using the correct 40mm HEDP, I had the grenade launcher team ACQUIRE some after they'd burned off their original ammo. They showed "empty", then I ACQUIRED 20 rounds, and they showed "40mm HEDP" as 20. All good. Then they fired the 20. Back to empty. I took a squad and loaded them with 620 rounds. They had 40mm HEDP coming out of their ears. They would not share. No ammo share for automatic grenade launcher. BF.C?

Hmm, definitely an orders phase, I'm not sure about the replay being saved... I'm playtesting for the scenario author...

Gents, While we are waiting for 1.32 and the better goodness it will shower upon us, I thought I'd share a thought. Or two. My men, in a playtest battle, have to assault into a building complex. The building is made up of several 8 level building tiles adjoining each other. The outer walls are solid. No LOS in or out. The inner walls are a nightmare. All the adjoining walls have many windows and doors. Some have the big window. You know, the bad one. So, I can anticipate being fired upon by the adjoining buildings. BOOM! I blew the demo charges, busted into the ground floor simultaneously in several adjoining locations, and got wiped out. Not by guys IN the ground floor. Not by guys ADJACENT to where I'd entered. Some of the enemy were in the floor above. Okay, cool. Stairwells, firing holes, air ducts, spraying guns through the floor like they do in movies, whatever. It's abstracted. What is, um, ABSURD, was getting effectively fired on by ALL THE OTHER GUYS. You know, like the ones UP ON THE 6TH LEVEL!! WITH RPGS!!! FROM THE NEXT ADJOINING BUILDING!!!! C'mon man. How can you DREAM of having an LOS or LOF from a 6 floor difference, from an adjoining building location. They had a shared wall. This is not firing at a nearby building; this is firing at a building you are part of. Is this simulating sending RPG rounds through the little air tubes you can send messages through, like at the bank? Laundry chutes? RC cars with rockets duct taped to them careening through the hallways? I don't have an 8 floor building, but looking around my house, I am unable to see through the floors, the ceilings, or the walls. Sure, I could knock a hole or two around the place, but then I wouldn't be able to see beyond the very next room or floor. How can my pixeltruppen SEE that far, and then EFFECTIVELY place rounds and ordnance there? BF.C, is there ANY hope of tweaking this multi-floor LOS/LOF? Thanks, Ken

Lanzfeld, We have just cross-posted. I JUST started a thread with this issue regarding the British dismounted version of the automatic grenade launcher. Ammo sharing doesn't seem to work with that weapon. I'm asking for more information. This seems to back up my impression that ammo sharing is not quite perfected yet. Ken

Gents, Playing with the Brits, I'm using the Grenade Machine Gun, the L134A1. The two man crew will dismount from their Bulldog with the weapon and a mix of grenades, 48 in total. They leave behind 320 grenades. That would be a royal pain, breaking down the weapon and running the crew into the Bulldog every 3-4 minute to reload. Instead, I decided to use a spare squad to act as ammo carriers. I loaded them into the Bulldog, ACQUIRED all 320 grenades, ran them to the same tile as the grenade team, and then...nothing. At this point, there is no way to even SEE if the squad has 320 grenades. Nor, frankly, am I sure they're the RIGHT 40mm grenades. (Although, a lot of posts have been made that British vehicles WILL and DO carry the correct ordnance for the weapon team they are transporting, so I ASSUME that the "40mm HEDP" listed is meant for the L134A1. Who knows. Shrug.) Anyway, the grenades disappear from ANY player interface. I placed the the ammo carriers on the same 1x1 rooftop as the launcher. No ammo sharing took place. I tried it on open ground. I tried it dismounted. I tried it TARGETED. I tried, and I tried, and then I cried. Well, not really. Several issues: Unknown ammunition compatibility. A TOOLTIP would be nice. WHICH 40mm goes with WHICH weapon? Don't give me MOD specs, tell me in CMSF which "40mm HEDP" means the RIGHT "40mm HEDP"? Disappearing munitions. If a unit is carrying Javelins, demo charges, RPG rockets, 5.56 ammo, hand grenades, I know it. If they can ACQUIRE something, it would be nice to SEE it on the interface. Ammo sharing. I have seen some pretty slick sharing occur. Why won't the guys holding 320 rounds of ammo for the GMG share it with their buddies who have the GMG? Has anyone else looked at this? Or am I missing something obvious? Thanks, Ken

Apache, The official word, found elsewhere, from Steve was that they (BF.C) would leave it up to you to peruse web sources for more detailed specs on the weapon and equipment. The reasoning (if my memory is anywhere near correct) was that there is FAR too much detail for them to try to cram into the game manual. They had to stop somewhere. As for tooltips, yeah, there's been A LOT of grousing about having a tooltip which tells you what ammo the weapon uses. BF.C has done a tremendous amount of support and improvement to their games over the years. The current tooltips are far better than the initial release. I can only hope that they will continue to add to this feature. In the meantime, google is your friend. Use the internet to look up all those weapons you see in the interface. You'll eventually find the information you're looking for. After that, you just need to play to find out how effective (or not) the various weapons are. Enjoy. Ken

Ah hah! A Christmas release! A Beta Tester has let slip, inadvertently, the release date! "Merry Christmas"? Yes, indeed... Thanks for the "clue". Ken (never one to jump to foundationless conclusions)

June... June 7th... The day AFTER the anniversary of the landings...

From my test in the thread about rooftops, thes results at least show how rubble and open ground compare when being fired on by airburst 105. Here are the average number of survivors (with standard deviation). - Infantry on walled rooftops - 13/3.5 - Infantry on unwalled rooftops - 13/3.5 - Infantry on the 2nd floor of a 2 level building - 23/3.5 - Infantry on paved ground - .5/.7 - Infantry on dirt - .4/.7 - Infantry in rubble (from demolished 2 level buildings) - 2.75/1.6 As you can see, rubble IS better than open ground. Open ground and pavement are the same with regards to airburst 105. None of them are all that good. I have not tested against troops in trenches, but I don't think anything is out of line with the numbers above. Ken

This is, indeed, the issue. Falling masonry, the blast which caused it, if the men were on upper floors they would suffer FALLING all the way down, all these would kill, maim, injure, or stun. Right now if you assault a building which gets vaporized by a bomb or moments after a heavy artillery barrage destroys it, you are VERY likely to have several survivors up and firing. Every time. I contend that more men should actually be heavily wounded or killed. That is subject to debate and depends on variables such as the size of the building, the number of floors, the unit's floor, what ordnance struck the building and caused the collapse. Beyond the number of casualties, the effect on the survivors seems far too mild. Suppression meters should be pegged, with a PIN, for many minutes. There should be a morale hit. These should combine to put a lot of !'s over their heads. In short, mere survival does not mean the men are capable of fighting. Fewer should survive; those who do survive should not be able to fight so quickly.

Whereas we can all agree on how wonderful the ruins of Stalingrad proved to be as defensive structures, are you sure that "very many people also survived being in the buildings that were hit."? HE, bombing, etc, destroying a building all at once (or at least over a matter of a few minutes) is far different than slowly battering a building into rubble. Units which infiltrated into a ruin would be different than a unit surviving demolition in a building. Are you sure about this information? I do not, at first blush, accept it. Yes, men survive a lot. Buildings which are demolished provide a lot of cover. However, the supposition that a men in a building BEING demolished can survive in fighting trim (in CMSF's time scale) does not pass the sniff test. Thoughts? Ken

Better yet, get Scipio on the team. The angst of the NDA restrictions should nicely balance the sense of accomplishment he'll get when his icons are part of the official release.

I do not have a test to rely upon, but it seems that bunkers and buildings are treated differently. HE vs. buildings have been discussed in the linked thread. Remaining areas to examine: casualties caused by buildings collapsing while occupied. I.e., should units at level 7 die when that 8 level building collapses? What about those on level 1 when that building collapses? This still needs to be tested. Small arms effects vs. units in buildings, bunkers, and rubble is an area that also could bear further scrutiny. Ken

Will there be splashes from bullet impacts? (For those with IL2, strafing a river is always good fun. ) If they didn't have muzzle "breaks", will they instead gain muzzle "brakes"? I'm scrolling the screenies from side to side so it'll look like they're moving. Ersatz video. Ken