Soddball

Have a look at the scenario I have sent you. Units in halftracks consistently appear as "Infantry Sounds?" at ranges around 2km in this test scenario. That makes it easy to determine whether a halftrack is carrying infantry or not. I know that halftracks are not 'fully enclosed' but unless you're looking down into the halftrack, that argument is utterly irrelevant. The only way you should be able to tell whether a buttoned halftrack at 2km range has infantry inside it is to stuff a shell through it and see who jumps out. You should not be able to pick up "Infantry Sounds?" from inside! There is a distinct difference between identification of a unit in a jeep and a unit in a truck - something on the order of 500m difference. It is significant, because even though units in both truck and jeep are 'spotted' at 2km, they aren't 'identified' in the jeep until around 1,500m. I am well aware that CM:BB is finished, and that changes to CM:AK are unlikely, but this niggle could easily be exploited and I still remain to be convinced that it is 'realistic'. The picture posted relates to something slightly different to what we see in CM:BB. Anyone know of any images of 'radio' spotters in WW2?

I don't think that there is an issue related to which side you're playing. I'm sure that if I reversed the tests to have a Russian platoon HQ observing German units the results would be identical.

)ARGGhHAGRAGHAHRAGRHAHGRHGA!!! Keke scraped a lowly draw despite his lucky escape. Even though I stuffed an 85mm round through the side of his Panther, it survived ( :mad: :mad: ) and he escaped being my wife. :mad: He is a gamey love-monkey. Wallybob is an arse with big saggy cheeks. No other dildos have sent me turns. Why the smeg not? I require turns from MasterGoodale (no, really), Mike_the_Wino, Snarker and PlatCmdr. I don't believe that you all have your monthly baths on the same day - unless you all share the same bath and the same water at the same time, which would surprise me not at all.

What alerted me to the problem was a scenario I was playtesting, where a StuG targetted an arty spotter in a truck 2km away rather than a T34/85 500m away which was firing on it. I have since carried out further tests. I picked a platoon HQ because vehicles such as trucks, jeeps and halftracks will back away from a StuG, even hidden in trees, and I needed the test units to advance rather than back away. Since that initial observation, I have broadened my investigation to cover other bases and I believe that a number of units are affected by this, and that the key is the ability to spot and identify a unit on the back of a truck. This is the problem. Mortars, MGs and spotters (and possibly other units but I haven't tested) are ID'ed way too easily at long range. Let's say I have two trucks. In one truck I have a split squad with 6 men in, one of which is carrying an LMG-42. In the other truck I have a 6-man HMG-42 squad. Why is the MG-42 squad identified at 2km range and the split infantry squad identified at 400m range? There is no logic here. The same applies for artillery spotters. How can arty spotters be so swiftly identified? Why is it possible to identify a mortar unit, or a MG unit, or an artillery spotter using only a pair of binoculars at such a long range? The issue is that, quite simply, identification of units on trucks is too easy. Yes, they are exposed - but not much more so than a unit on the back of a tank, or a unit in a jeep. I suggest that you also look at why it is possible for a unit to 'spot' "Infantry Sounds?" in the back of an enclosed halftrack at 2km range, because my interpretation of a halftrack was that the rear section was enclosed. It shouldn't be possible for a unit to spot that there is anything inside the halftrack except at very close range. If anyone has any pictures they can post of radio artillery spotters from WW2, it would be much appreciated.

Yes, and you can't "hide" them

arghghghghgh. :mad: :mad: :mad: Strap-on cockmunchers. I hate you all. :mad: :mad: Keke is dying a hot, sweaty, wet death like the bidge he is.. MasterGoodale is about to kill me completely and wipe me out, totally. Yes. I am really suffering. (teehee) No one else matters, and you can all piss off and rot. :mad: :mad:

I've added some extras to this test scenario. Each unit type has four 'states'. It is either on foot, in a jeep, in a truck, or in a halftrack. The unit types are (all Russian): 82mm Mortar Spotter (Radio) Dshk 12.7mm MG 50mm Mortar Rifle Squad There are two trucks with no units in as a 'control' and on the map are also a Platoon HQ (because you have to have it to include the rifle sqauds) and a sharpshooter. At just on 2km range, the support weapons and mortar spotters are identified, but the infantry isn't. Odd. Anyone wants this scenario to try the test for themselves, email me. Run it hotseat, on Extreme Fog of War.

Can I agree with you and call you simple?

What do you mean by "all seems to work well"? Your definition of working well appears to be "perfoms to specification", with which I will agree. The game is running as it should. My dispute is that the game should not be running like this. A conscript platoon HQ should not be successfully identifying artillery spotters in the back of trucks at 2km. Incidentally, I added another two trucks, one containing an infantry squad, another containing a machine gun. Guess what? At 2km range, the machine gun in the truck was successfully identified, the infantry squad appears as 'infantry?' Test scenario emailed over to you for you to see.

StuG optics are irrelevant. I ran and reran the test with a platoon HQ, and the same occurrence cropped up. "Heat of Battle" is also irrelevant, since the same thing occurs each time. If you want, I will email the test scenario to you. Run it Hotseat, and 'move' all the Russian units 2000m towards the flag. You'll see exactly what I described: The Radio artillery spotter in the truck is identified first, by a long way. The Radio artillery spotter in the jeep is identified second. The Radio artillery spotter in the halftrack appears as "infantry sounds?" for about 1.5km The Radio artillery spotter who is walking appears as "infantry?", the same as all the other 'infantry' units. If this is 'how the game is supposed to work', then please could you explain how an artillery spotter is successfully ID'ed in a truck at 2km, but in a jeep (which, to the best of my knowledge, is not all sheltered and cosy) for another 500m? Furthermore, why doesn't the conscript platoon HQ successfully ID the walking spotter? I remain unconvinced by your arguments, Moon - I believe that you are clutching at straws to explain a phenomena which simply should not occur.

If this is the case, then why did neither the StuG nor the Conscript HQ successfully identify the 'artillery spotter' who wasn't in a vehicle? At 2km, the HQ successfully spotted and ID'ed the spotter in the truck. At 1.5km, the HQ successfully spotted and ID'ed both the jeep and the spotter in the jeep. Down to 800m the HQ failed to identify any other units, including a machine gun, a flamethrower, a mortar and (most importantly) a radio spotter with his huge flags, enormous antenna and whatnot. However, the HQ did manage to spot "Infantry Sounds" in the back of the halftrack at 1.5km, which I found most impressive. Something isn't right here, and I don't believe that any amount of naysaying will prove otherwise. If spotters are so visible, why are they so visible in a truck and not when walking along the ground? Let me reiterate. These are all radio spotters - no wires, no flags.

It's just the model used. Not all models look like their historical counterparts. Examples include the early-war French tanks, PSW 234/4, PSW 233, IS-3 and a few others.

:mad: Where's my turn?! :mad:

Yes, I'm in agony. Ow, ow, ow. Oh, the pain. Please, no more huge rocket attacks. Ow. Ow. (I'll say anything to make MG ship a turn).

I don't remember saying anything about AI cheats? My grumble is with something totally different, honest - like how a tank 2km away can spot that an infantry unit in the back of a truck is an artillery spotter. </font>

Have you got any links to any of those vehicles? I'd be interested in taking a look.

I don't remember saying anything about AI cheats? My grumble is with something totally different, honest - like how a tank 2km away can spot that an infantry unit in the back of a truck is an artillery spotter.

Just a quick example which made me puzzled. I was playtesting a new scenario and had a radio spotter in a truck. The truck was zipping across open terrain when it was suddenly struck by a fat 75mm HE shell from a StuG over 2km away. Because I designed the scenario, I know for certain that the closest enemy units are 1,700m away. Granted, Borg Spotting might influence this, but the StuG ignored the very visible T34/85s less than 500m away to target the spotter in a truck 2,100m away. :eek: Fix, etc..

I think it does, but that's just gut feeling. Any chance someone can run some tests or sumfink? I'd do it, but I have more urgent stuff to think about.

GARAGHAHAHAGRAHGHARGAHRAHRAGRAHRARAH :mad: :mad: :mad: Let's see who has been on the wrong end of Soddball's Stick of Punishment today... Here are my Evil Edna Updates: MasterGoodale SHIPPED A TURN!! Actually, he was probably quite glad to ship this one, since his long-promised artillery (two fat doses of rockets, I might add) finally turned up, 20 turns late. It came as a big thundery splodicon excitement shock, because it has doubled his total kills to six. Bring it on, fatboy: :mad: Mike_the_Whining_Weasel has shipped a turn of our game "Blow the city to pieces for 20 turns and sob". It's not fun. It's horrible. He has also whined like a weasel about the original incarnation of Cheery Waffle, which is, to some extent, justified. Version 2 will resolve many of the Wino's Whines. PratCmdr is still failing to successfully take Kneiber Dam. He frots and foams like a frotty, foamy thing. Still, we agree on one thing - MasterGoodale sucks. :mad: BallyWobble is still cowering like a hoor as I advance across the map. I have now covered 60% of it and still no sign of the cowering weasel. Snarker has resurfaced after a suckage and is continuing to pound me like a bitch in the showers in jail. :mad: Pass the soap. :mad: Keke is biting off the rough end of Soddball's Stick of Punishment and is counting down the turns till game-over, hoping that he can scrape a draw and avoid wifedom. I will have games finished fairly soon. Whoever is waiting to play me better pucker up. :mad:

Maggots who sent turns include Mike_the_Vommer, Wallybob and PlatCmdr. Maggots who didn't send turns and (by definition) suck include Snarker (and his feeble exploding computer), Keke (who is forgiven because he nearly always has to wait for me), Prinz Eugen (who sucks because he has owed me a turn for about a year) and MasterGoodale, who always sucks and always owes turns. That said, I received an email from Goodale's ants yesterday saying that they will try to send his turns on without him. My games ride mightily on the crest of total victory. You bunch of hand-shandying wazzoes better buckle up, because Soddy is going to ride you like a cheap hoor. News on the Scenario front: Lots of evil being generated. A groovily evil new scenario giving you the chance to enjoy long-range scraps with your tanks is entering beta stage. [ July 07, 2003, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: Soddball ]

Tank....Hunter....Team. It does exactly what it says on the tin.

The best solution is to play scenarios that neither of you have played before. That's all that I can suggest, and I suppose that estimation is a bit 'gamey', but if you're playing a Quick Battle then you can't get much more 'gamey'.

GARGARGHahAHRHGARHAGRAHRAHARG. Turns out to all Maggots. I'm looking forward (coff coff choke) to AAR's on Forward Recon, Friggin Chilly in Finistere, and Cheery Waffles v2 - although I haven't yet launched the last one. I was playtesting it myself this morning and I believe that the force balance and terrain wossnames have been improved no end. At least, I was playing as Axis and I offered fisting pleasure to the Allies over 20 turns of flaming crazy death before I had to come to work. :mad: :mad: If I owe you a turn, it's because you haven't sent me one. Get on with it. :mad: :mad:

Take the StuGs for a spin in CM:BB. They are one of my favourite units in that. Hard to spot, well-armed and cheap. That said, a StuG in a town against fast-moving halftraks and bazooka units is about as far from an ideal location for a StuG as you can get. Try it in CM:BB in an open-country game.