DekeFentle

I believe Lt. Bull has a perspective that some of you are missing as well as some real life experience he may be trying to communicate. VL’s are objectives set forth by the scenario designer. Objectives are points on the battlefield that are key gauges to your success in the battle. They are NOT phase lines to simply be reached but rather areas to be taken and held within the otherwise fluid environment of the conflict. Although I can not speak to the WWII training and doctrine I can tell you USA troops are trained to take, push through and set up a security perimeter around objectives. The doctrine I was taught demanded we move through the objective 100 – 300 meters and set up a security perimeter. This distance was of course dependent on terrain and I can recall a platoon sergeant sharply reprimanded during one training exercise for reporting an objective secured before the affore mentioned perimeter had been established. The example of unarmed virtual soldiers contesting control on the last turn loses some validity when you realize that small arms are abstractly modeled in the CM engine. The modern battlefield was to my amazement a veritable junk yard of small arms and ammunition. Those supposedly unarmed troops would have a very easy time picking up a plethora of arms with which to contest control of any area they could get to. There are ample historical examples of very small groups or even individuals effecting the outcome of battles as members of the larger force or on their own. View a VL as an area over which you must exert total control and the acceptance of even one enemy soldier within that area can be seen as unacceptable. The “gamy” aspect of contesting an objective on the last turn because both players know it’s the last turn is a hard hurdle to get past but I believe that following the doctrine of securing the objective before you consider the mission accomplished in game terms precludes this from happening. If I can put a force in place to dispute or seize control of what you have then how can you consider that gamy? If I didn’t know the “world is ending” in one minute I would still be in a position to do it and that indicates you do NOT have complete control. It really works both ways, as the defender of the VL I know my two depleted squads can’t hold against that company you have marching through the woods towards me. However if I open up with my HT I can keep you from getting across the field for one turn even though your tank will make swiss cheese out of that HT. I know, I know you can poke a million holes in that example but it illustrates a counter point to the end game rush only working for the attacker. I also need to add there is nothing “gamy” about a game it’s the nature of the beast. I strongly object to the fire power ratio as a resolution. The problem I have is where do you stop? Why 50 meters? Why 2-1, isn’t 3-1 the generally accepted ratio for attacker success? BTW my FO is sitting in that house 400 meter away with LOS and he has 20 units of 8” to pour down on you. I want credit for him too! Hey, I just realized my 105 spotter can see the objective, add him in. I almost forgot that 75mm infantry gun I’ve been pushing through the woods for three turns can see that flag, add it up. Do you begin to see the ramifications? In my politically incorrect way I am trying to demonstrate that requests for coding changes may seem simple but are usually very complex in there scope. >>>>> I am not sure if people are sufficiently aware of the fact that each player sees the flags (and who controls them) from HIS very subjective perspective. I am saying this because in a few games I have been accused of the last minute rush myself, whereas my units were within the VL area quite some time but simply haven't been spotted. Keep in mind that if you do not see an enemy, the VL might show YOUR flag, although control is really neutral (or even belongs to the enemy without you knowing it). So when you look at your score in the next to last turn and then suddenly find yourself ending up with a draw or a loss, it might be because your subjective point of view didn't reflect the true VL control.<<<<< Everyone read that last paragraph again and then a third time. Ponder it. Now ask yourself, if I truly have secured my objective do I have to worry about it, or an endgame bum rush? I know I don’t. Thank you Lt. Bull for pointing out that yet again the depth of consideration inherent to the CM engine is mind boggling in its complexity and design. We should all endeavor to find the other side of the coin when we look at this game; I am consistently amazed at how often I find it to be far beyond anything I could have hoped for. Now is there room for improvement? Of course, again that’s the nature of the beast. Should we be lobbying for change on the way VL’s are handled? I guess I have yet to hear a convincing argument that supports that. [This message has been edited by DekeFentle (edited 02-20-2001).]

Pascal I would of bought it if I knew it existed

Praise the Lord and pass the amunition!!! I just checked my mail box, I have a WEB cam set up to look at it so I don't miss your delivery, not there yet but I'm sure it will be soon. It's 05:00 here and my wife is mad as hell that I'm jumping around and hollering like a kid at Christmas Send it to me first please??? PLEASE oh PLEASE oh PLEASE.....

BTS, it would appear from your order form that CMBO is back in stock. Please comment on when we can expect to see the back orders filled??????

I'll buy your game if you decide to sell it. Let me know I can have a certified check to you in 24 hours.

Shameless bump...

About two years ago I found Space Merchant online and needed a trader name. I didn't want to go with the same old thing so I grabbed this one out of thin air. I went on to become the first player to hit "Speefy" (500,000 points) I guess I decided to stick with success

CJ I would not make a sound if I only had to wait a week. I ordered three days after it went out of stock and the projected date for it being back in stock is 26 Feb. Oooh, the pain....

Here I sit demo a playing. Every day to the mailman I fly, hands folded praying. Reading the posts gazing at mods, downloading scenarios, begging the gods. The Valley of Trouble is burned onto my screen. All of those who wait with me, you know what I mean. Maneuver, attrition, the HELL you say, those without games just want to play! My wife is telling me my mood is real bad. My friends have been saying I look pretty sad. My desire to own this product of fame, is driving me crazy I admit without shame. BTS hear us, the retched without. Relieve us the pain of a mailbox to scout. Copy some disks and a manual of HTML Use FTP and remove us from a living hell. Our pleas are a din you must not ignore. To your conscience I beseech and implore. Check the back room, examine the trash. I'll pay extra, to hell with the cash! In content and research your are number one. The demo has given me two tons of fun. In distribution I fear you rate barely a ten. Send me the game I'll rate you again. ------------------ Winning is why we play!

I am on the hurry up and wait list too. I ordered my game four days after it went out of stock. I believe the estimated shipdate it Feb 26th IIRC. The demo scenarios are getting a bit stale but three of my buddies and I are making the best of it. Hey BTS can I submit my order for CM2 now so I will be assured of receiving it ASAP???

I can not comment on on WWII SOP's but I can tell you in the Modern Cav the old saying "Left takes left, right takes right, outside in." was part of our SOP. IIRC that's a section (2 vehicle) SOP. Woe be the gunner that forgets to check for "sleepers"! (targets that come up on the range after the initial presentation) I did participate in one CAVX (2x each platoons of Bradleys and M1A1's with the troop mortars and regimental 109's thrown in to keep us busy) All of us more or less online firing at multiple presentations and the SOP was still divided into sectional gunnery in assigned lanes. KISS in action I guess. I find it hard to believe that this SOP has changed much since WWII but then again my only claim to Grogdom is my ability to beat you in any game any time Side bar: Any 1000 point table eight club members out there? ------------------ Winning is why we play!

Hey thanks for the game name Treeburst155!!! I've spent almost 30 years wondering what that was. Now to see if I can find a copy... ------------------ Winning is why we play!

I went to some older guys (they were 14 I was 12)house on afternoon in late summer and played a WWI air combat game as I remember it was very simple with little plastic air planes on a stand that you got to stack "Kill Rings" on when you shot someone down. I thought it was great and tried to explain it to my mother. Bless her heart, I got Lutwaffa for Christmas LOL Spent that whole vacation with a kid from down the street trying to figure out how to play it. I also got Panzer blitz but couldn't really understand it so I put it on the shelf. I took it down a year later and discovered the joy of WWII tactical combat. That was 30 years ago. I found CMBO two weeks ago and it was like rediscovering a lost love. ------------------ Winning is why we play!