Treeburst155

I disagree. There are huge amounts of luck in CMBB already without considering variable endings. Should we not use battles with ground conditions other than "dry" so people will not bog? Should we not use armor, since penetration is really a luck thing now? What about cover? Spotting units is quite tied to the random number generator. You can't take all the luck out of the game. WWB</font>

I think variable endings are a good thing , for all the reasons Cpt Kernow stated above. There are two things about them that are of interest/concern to me. 1) They don't work like the manual states. IOW, a VTE scenario will ALWAYS yield more turns than designated by the designer. 2) The variation in the number of extra turns can be quite large. This is not real good from a competition perspective. Attacker A's variable ending may yield only three extra turns, while Attacker B manages 10 extra turns. These seven additional turns can have a huge effect on the final score, and it's purely a luck element. For competition purposes it would be nice if the variable ending was from 0-5 additional turns rather than 1-10 (there's always at least one additional turn it seems). In the Kernow example above, just an extra turn or two would have thwarted the tank rush according to him. IMO, the huge amount of luck added to the scenario is too heavy a price to pay to prevent flag rushes. This luck element could be reduced easily and substantially simply by cutting max variability to 5 turns or 12% of original scenario length. Flag rushes would still be more difficult to time. Treeburst155 out.

If you assume a variable ending will ALWAYS take place in scenarios designed with the feature (the manual claims different, but I've yet to see it NOT happen), then flag rushes have been made more difficult to time. This, as I understand it, is the purpose of VTE. I see nothing to hate about this feature. My testing just contradicts the manual. If I'm right, then the attacker in a VTE scenario ALWAYS has more turns than are specified to accomplish his mission. This is important to know IMO, for both players. In fact, it's a major revelation since the manual says different. EDIT: Scenario designers should keep this in mind when deciding on game length too. "30+" is likely to yield 35 turns or more. If a designer wants 30 turns +/-5, he needs to set the turns to 25 or so. Treeburst155 out. [ December 11, 2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

I have yet to get my test scenario NOT to go into the overtime period. A bug? Even with 30 turns executed without a flag status change, I'm getting the variable ending. It's a tough test clicking through all those turns, so I give up. As far as I'm concerned, a variable ending scenario will ALWAYS yield a variable ending. If the scenario is "40+" turns I'll plan on at least 41 turns, possibly up to 50 turns regardless of what happens with the flags at any point in the game. This means my gamey use of variable endings isn't really an exploitation of the feature at all. The ending WILL be variable anyway. Treeburst155 out. [ December 11, 2002, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

The manual says on page 42 that a variable ending battle can go up to 10 extra turns or 25% of the original battle length, whichever is less. What it doesn't say, is how early a flag change can trigger the variable ending. My testing so far shows a flag change at 20 TURNS before the end causes the overtime period. I'm beginning to suspect my test is flawed. Griffin, I have 7 PBEMs I'm neglecting right now over this variable ending thing. You don't want to play me because my turnaround time is rather sucky right now, tournaments and all. I'll hunt you down after the holidays if you want. Treeburst155 out.

Combined Arms, Your post to the ROW thread is what got me thinking about all this. I haven't played with how long the variable ending game can be dragged out, but I KNOW the variable ending is triggered REAL early. I would have guessed flag changes in the last two or three turns, but it's at least six turns. Treeburst155 out.

The tourney scenarios will NOT have variable endings. I just talked to Boots & Tracks Leader, Scott Boston. Treeburst155 out.

Hehehe! Buy the strategy guide. </font>

Tom, By leaving one of your VLs near the end you could have gone into overtime if you wanted. Treeburst155 out.

So you're saying, Panzer Leader, that your opponent is occupying and leaving VLs with a gun damaged vehicle just to extend the game? If so, that's what I'm talking about. Is he getting away with it multiple times? Treeburst155 out.

The turns will only go over if the status of a flag is changed near the end (not sure how near). What I'm wondering is, if repeated changes of status, in the overtime period, will trigger further extensions. What I know right now is that the game can be extended at will, and with no risk, at least once, by any player who has a flag behind his lines. Treeburst155 out.

So you're attacking, and you're pressed for time. Simply leave that VL behind your lines unoccupied until the last turn or two. At that time, occupy the VL and enjoy your extra turns. EDIT: The above is irrelevant. Testing shows that, contrary to the manual, ALL variable turn games will go at least one turn longer than the stated turns regardless of changes in flag ownership. If you get a variable ending scenario that ends on the specified turn, I'd love to hear about it. Treeburst155 out. [ December 13, 2002, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

I've added three more names to the replacement list. They are: 1) Sgt Abell 2) White4 3) Ace Pilot Combined Arms, Hmmm.....very interesting. I don't know if the designers have any variable ending scenarios planned for us or not. The fact that a game can go into "overtime" is not a problem IMO. The fact that this overtime can be VARIABLE introduces more luck into the battle. This is the issue, if there is one. Hehe....we have variable endings to deal with flag rushes by weak forces. The flip-side is that a late rush of even an insignificant flag can buy the attacker VALUABLE time. In fact, the attacker could leave a flag unoccupied that he has full control over, and "rush" it in the last turn, just to buy more time for himself. Hehe....I wonder if this works. Maybe some Boots & Tracks guys will chime in here. I'll have to think about this one for awhile. EDIT: I just did it. I rushed a flag on the second to last turn that was fully behind my lines and got the variable ending. This is something I need to make sure the Boots & Tracks guys aware of. Treeburst155 out. [ December 11, 2002, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Bertram, I got the Epron score from your opponent. Thanks! I'm good to go now for scoring this tournament. I'll do it on Sunday the 15th. I may get a few more results in by then. The more the better, even though I already have enough. Fight On! Treeburst155 out.

The Uberschreck strikes again! Are you sure you were playing against the Germans? I think you might have been going up against a Finnish panzerschreck. Treeburst155 out.

Yeah, Fulda Gap 1975! T62s (72s too?) against M60s and M60A1s, limited ATGM capabilities....hmmm....could be real fun. Treeburst155 out.

Email has been sent to everyone on the list above, including the replacements. If you did not receive it, please post here. Thanks! Treeburst155 out.

...and the battles rage on!! I will be scoring these ROW II Finals in five days (Sunday, December 15th). At this time I have about half a dozen more game results to process. I even noticed at least one "North of Epron" result. Even if you don't finish by December 15th I would really appreciate your sending in the final results of your games. These results will help fill out the database of Nabla scored scenarios we are building; which will in turn help Nabla determine if further improvements/changes to the Scoring System are in order. Fight On!! Treeburst155 out.

The player list for ROW III is set forth below (barring any withdrawals, of course). You will all receive an email. There are seven ROW newbies who signed up too late. They have been put on the replacement list. They will also receive an email. Tourney vets who sign up for this tourney from here on out will NOT have priority over these seven. They will have to take a place at the bottom of the waiting list. The Rumblings of War III Player List 1) JAT 2) Grog Dorosh 3) Redwolf 4) Frunze 5) Cpl Carrot 6) Combined Arms 7) mPisi 8) Bimmer 9) a1steaks 10) Spanish Bombs 11) Thumpre 12) Tuomas 13) TABPUB 14) Mikeydz 15) Holien 16) Juha A 17) Pixelmaster 18) jjelinek 19) Tero 20) The_Capt 21) Ted 22) Bertram 23) Vader's Jester 24) Fate 25) Jon_L 26) Mick_OZ 27) John Kettler 28) Kanonier Reichmann 29) MrSpkr 30) TexasToast 31) U8led 32) Cpt T 33) Kunstler 34) Enoch 35) Jeb 36) Scheer 37) Vadr 38) Heavy Drop 39) JPS 40) Sgt_Gold 41) Gunnersman 42) WadePM 43) Lord Dragon 44) Ron A 45) Ali 46) Ari Maenpaa ROW Newbies admitted: 47) Nidan1 48) Frontovik 49) Red 6 50) Frenchy 51) Legend42 52) Cyrano 53) Jaws 54) Determinant 55) Sgt CDAT 56) Seahawk 57) Dave Turner 58) Space Hamster 59) Sripe 60) Joakim Ruud 61) James Crowley 62) SlicerW 63) Nolloff 64) Steve Fielding 65) StoneAge 66) Joe Cz 67) Souljah1 68) SuperSlug 69) Ryddle 70) Major Victory 71) Flammenwerfer 72) Wellsonian Replacement List: 1) Zealotburner 2) Major Green 3) endit 4) Javaslinger 5) Lt Bull 6) Deadly 88 7) Shocktrooper Treeburst155 out.

Time grows very short for ROW veterans to claim a slot. In little more than an hour the ROW newbies will be officially entered into the OOB. Treeburst155 out.

I must vent. I'll do it here where it won't be nearly as detrimental to BFC. Here goes... STRATEGY GUIDE!!!! Hahahaha!! Go ahead, foolish people. Part with $20 more. See what it really gets you, other than $20 closer to the poverty line. Hahahaha!!!! You want tips on how to play CM, read the arfing "Tips & Tricks" forum, or try playing the game for a few hours. Hahahaha!!! Stragegy Guide indeed. Hahahaha!!! Squire Treeburst155 out.

Cesspool Tournament Of Winos Update: The Mutha Beautiful Army now contains sixteen Draftees. They are, Speedy, Yeknod, Mr Peng, Lars, Boo Radley, Leeo, Noba, ChrisL, Panzer Leader, Nidan1, Mike's Organ, MrSpkr, Seanachai, OSGF, Nestor, and Joe Shaw. If you have not answered the call to duty yet, be advised you are too late. You are now a Voter, and will have your say as to who you think should win the tournament based on the AARs players will post to the MBT. At this time the Chairwomen of The Joint Chiefs Of Staff will decide who plays whom from the list of sixteen above. This process will take as long as Persephone and Emma want it to. The fate of the Mutha Beautiful Army is now in their hands. Treeburst155, Squire to Senior Knight More-Arty, Defender of Lost Causes [ December 09, 2002, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

The signup list has been updated (see the first post to this thread). I updated it twice in 15 minutes actually, because I forgot to check my email before the first time. If you have sent me a signup email, check the list for your name. In TWELVE HOURS, the ROW newbies will be assigned ALL the remaining slots. As it is now, there will be some new guys who miss out. They will be placed on the ALWAYS tapped Replacement List. Treeburst155 out.

Time grows short for tourney vets. In less than 45 hours the ROW newbies will be assigned the remaining slots with those who miss out being placed on the replacement list. Treeburst155 out.

Speaking of breathalyzers, let me bore you with a true story. Many years ago, while driving around lost, and half drunk, in a strange town, I made an illegal U-turn (didn't see the bleedin' sign). Sure enough I was stopped by the the law. As the officer approached the car I said in a most cheerful, smiling way, "How did you know I was drunk? What tipped you off?" Somewhat surprised at the open admission, he said, "Well, I just pulled you over for an illegal U-Turn actually. Other than that your driving seemed fine. I CAN smell the alcohol on your breath though. Would you be willing to take a breathalyzer test?" I said, "Naah, that's a waste of time. I'm at .15, maybe .16". He chuckled and asked me to step out of the car for some field sobriety tests. These I must not have passed because he took me away to the police station. In the police car I asked him if we would make it to the jail in time for breakfast, and if they were serving oatmeal. I told him I liked oatmeal. Once at the station, I took the breath test. Sure enough, I was at .15. In my cheery way I said, "See, I told ya so." The cop laughed, gave me a cup of coffee, and told be to go sit in the lobby until I felt I was below .10. At that time he would test me again. Some time later I was sure I was at .09-.10 so I walked up to the counter for my second breath test. Lo and behold, I was at .09, just like I thought. With a big shiite eating grin I said, "Now can I have a bowl of oatmeal? The cop said, "No oatmeal for you, Mike. It would mess with your internal breathalyzer." At that point he gave me my keys, and directions to my car some 2 1/2 miles away. He let me go with no charges when I was well over the legal limit! The U-Turn violation was also forgotten. The lessons: Admit your errors. Learn to love oatmeal. Be NICE to cops. Treeburst155, Squire to Senior Knight More-Arty, Defender of Lost Causes [ December 07, 2002, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]