Maxx

Well yeah, but.. I wanted a feel for the difference in terrain type.

The test had the following parameters: South, Damp, June 1944, Hot, Midday, Regulars. Test track was a 800m stretch of either scattered woods or clear terrain. 10 tanks per type per test, 5 tests for each type in both terrain types. That works out to 50 tests over 800m per vehicle, per terrain type. Data shows percent of tanks that IMMOBILIZED due to bog. Clear: ...T34/76 T34/85 Panther Tiger MkIVJ 1.....0........0.........0.......10......0 2.....0........0........10........0.....10 3.....0........0.........0.......10......0 4....10........0.........0........0.....10 5.....0........0........10.......10......0 Scattered Woods: ...T34/76 T34/85 Panther Tiger MkIVJ 1....30.......40.......70......100.....30 2....10.......40.......30......100.....80 3....10.......20.......70......100.....50 4....10.......60.......50......100.....80 5....40.......50.......50......100.....90 Note: The majority of Tigers in scattered woods immobilized within the first 150m of travel. All movement orders were 'fast'. Initial tests using the 'move' order show even higher percentage chance of bogging to immobilized in scattered trees. Sorry for the poor formatting, I don't know how to insert tabs. [ December 02, 2002, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Maxx ]

Thanks Paul. It's interesting that the Panther actually has a smaller MMP than the T34. Still, it doesn't make sense to me that these tanks immobilize due to bogging so much. [ December 01, 2002, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: Maxx ]

This is fast becoming an issue for me as well. I always play Soviet, my T34's regularly bog and immobilize. Lately with 9 T34s purchased, on damp ground, and each traveling say 400 meters I get 1 or 2 immobilized. The ground pressure for T34 is 10.7 psi, the Panther is 11.8 psi and the Tiger 13.9 psi. Is this (the amount of bogging) historically accurate?

I think Joques made a great point earlier. It's about rate of fire, as well as kill chance per shot. Including this variable one can easily understand the ISU backing out, no?

Thanks COG!

Steve has interesting things to say about urban fighting and German small arms (in late '42) here. [ November 30, 2002, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Maxx ]

Thanks Panzer Leader. Forest Railhead is a gem.

There is a general map with Rynok visible here and here.

No maps, but in 'Stalingrad - The Fateful Seige' Anthony Beevor says "Like the other panzer commanders, Captain Freytag-Loringhoven stood on top of his tank to gaze through binoculars across the wide Volga river. The view was excellent from the much higher western bank. 'We looked at the immense, immense steppe towards Asia, and I was overwhelmed,' he remembered. 'But I could not think about it for very long because we had to make an attack against another anti-aircraft battery that had started firing on us.'" also... "We had to fight, shot for shot, against thirty-seven enemy anti-aircraft positions, manned by tenacious fighting women, until they were all destroyed."

I agree, it's only purpose is to A) Ingrain dynamic movement principles as soviet player, proficiency in guiding several AFV's to target simultaneously and C) Deep map manuever using terrain for concealment. However, I still am quite sure the only way to win with a T34/76 is the flanking shot. No matter how many platoons of cats exist, its the only viable option that I can see. Frontal shot kills are extremely rare.

As an additional trainer, sub out the 3 T34/76s for 4 SU 76s. I have not had one reverse out of a side or rear shot on a tiger or panther yet. Regular experience level crews. Takes a few more shots, but if the GE cat is buttoned, its all still good.

Gotta look for them on each unit. So it might go like this: On the strike turn, I issue 'fast' orders to all three tanks, so they all have nice juicy shots. Then, I look again at all 3 T34's, noting the command delay of each. Now if the distance they each travel is nearly the same, use the pause key (P) on the tanks to make their delays roughly equal, or if one has to travel a bit more then the other 2, use a 10 sec (or more) pause on the other 2. This will assure they all show up at nearly the same time. BTW, those T34's mods you did are great, MrNoobie - thanks [ November 27, 2002, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Maxx ]

After getting my a$$ handed to me by Abbott I decided to setup soviet armor training scenarios. I've prolly played 50 of these, and for what its worth, this is what I have learned. First, set these up yourself. If you play Soviet side alot you really have to master the core 3 T-34/76s vs. 1 tiger or 1 panther engagement. 500 point ME QB on a random map. Buy both sides units yourself. Buy, for the meeting engagement, GE: 1 platoon inf 1 panther or tiger SU: 1 platoon inf 3 T34/76's (they cost about the same as 1 cat) Now mount those infantry on the T34's, spread them out, and head for concealment around the middle of the map. You will get there first. Dismount infantry and get a sound contact on the cat. You will never win a frontal slugfest. The plan is to engage the cat with 2 or more t34's simultaneously, from the side, or better yet, the side, rear and front. One T34 may have to be bait. If you cannot master using the terrain to get into postion, you're gonna lose. It's that simple. As the Russian player you don't have the luxury of hitting home runs with frontal shots. Use the fast forward button to save time, and play a new QB over and over until you can kill that cat almost every time out. Some critical points: 1) Always.. ALWAYS use available infantry to button up the cat before you make the 'strike'. This is huge as it may give you 1 or 2 extra shots before he can see you. A rifle platoon at less than 250m does the trick. 2) On the strike turn (the turn you are moving all three into kill shot position), look at the command delays! Make sure, by using pause, that all 3 (or 2) T34's will be on target at the SAME TIME. If not, your odds of winning the encounter drop significantly. 3) For this to work, you need a map with at least moderate trees, or a village, or modest hills... anything to move your T34's without getting hammered. 4) Don't be afraid to go deep. Once you get sound contact, use the strength of the T34 (speed) to plunge deep into his side of the map (and hide there). 5) The ideal firing position is 120 degree phase difference between all 3 T34's. In other words, hit from both sides and rear, or both sides and front. A postion where the cat will hopelessly try to turret turn on you - and no matter which way, he's screwed. You will have to creep up your T34's so they all can be on target together. The QB's last about 10 mins each, so you can improve pretty quick. These will teach you to read terrain pretty well. It's all about terrain. The thing is, in my opinion, he has to play this game, cause if he retreats his armor, he (the GE player) is leaving his INF to get mauled by one of your tanks, and the VL will be lost. I played a few of these with sharpshooters, but it got to be too easy. Once he is permanently buttoned, your job is much easier. Also, if the terrain won't allow a concealed move, from cover to cover, don't do it. The Panther is excellent at hitting moving armor. I'm not sure about Tigers, but my guess is they are as well. [ November 27, 2002, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Maxx ]

Abbott, Your son is in our thoughts and prayers. Best wishes for both of you.

Bruno - get a receipt. You can write that off.

Vegas line this morning is 'pick em', evened out from 24122:1 in ParaBellum's favor just last night. I think it's the KV's Abbott included for MG that did it [ November 20, 2002, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: Maxx ]

Vikrant, Try giving individual orders to units, and try at all times to keep your infantry in cover - woods, tall pines, scattered trees, buildings etc. Open terrain should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.

uh.. yeah, but check those reload times

Yes, they are great to have around. They can easily immobilize the heavy cats with frontal shots. They come with a good supply of both AP and HE, and can rout GE INF with one shot. In my experience however, if you are looking to shoot down GE aircraft, it's best to go with the cheaper 25mm AA. Five of these units, well placed in a 2000+ QB, are usually enough to drive off ALOT of planes, and in some cases score kills. Although they don't have AP ammo, they also do well against INF. [ November 19, 2002, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Maxx ]

Well, after coming here looking for posts to read, I must say I was disappointed in yours Voxman. Your post here seems - Child-Like - Poor Effort - Crappy Please Voxman, if you can't put effort into posting, don't bother.

LOL!

..gah...*drool*..

Never put Charlie Sheen on point. Don Knotts would have been my first choice.

Lindan those Marders are sooo underdog. Rematch? Let me know when you have time. :cool: