Juha Ahoniemi

WTF??? Everett dropped out??? He didn't say anything like that last night when we started hostilities...Maybe he got scared when the shooting started, he is from Sweden after all Of well bring in another one, more meat to the grinder! Juha

Good to know that my paranoia didn't go unnoticed. Thank You guys for reacting and researching efforts! Maybe here is something to learn to CM2?!? This seems to cause a lot of extra work for "tournament masters". Maybe the first turns should contain only typing in passwords, one extra email won't hurt anyone. I hope we see it in CM2.

...and Ari sings "they'r comin' to take me away, hahaa! They'r comin' to take me away hohoo!" Be warned people - You may end up like him. Sad story, really.

Ari, any news from the front? The so-called "stars" tournament I mean? I'm just waiting for the mayhem to start at ROWT and try to relax with Max Payne..

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa: You NEWBIES !! Ari<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hmmm...I smell self-satisfied Ari "old fart" Mäenpää... So they let You access the net again?

Thanks, TB155. I thought it must be so, but it is nice to be sure. Paranoia I guess, maybe it is time to double my medication, hmm . I just thought somebody might use any means necessary (and possible) to get his hans on those wines... Prepare to meet thirsty enemy, foes! (eyes glowing like madman's) -Juha

Firstly, millions of thanks to all those who made this tournament possible. I'm sure it will be a jewel among all tournaments. We are not worth it ! But let me ask about some security issue (I apologise if it has mentioned already): There will be absolutely no chance for starting player to see the whole scenario, right? I mean, passwords will already be in? If not, there will almost certainly be some speculation that player who started the game just loaded "newborn" file (after mailing it), set some password and spied the enemy forces. Normally I would trust my opponent but when there is Excellent wine at stake, I tend to get paranoid... Gladly waiting my destiny and eager to fight, Juha [ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Juha Ahoniemi ]

This is just in - We don't need snipers! I am playing PBEM game with my friend and the following happened: My veteran shapshooter saw ugly sherman jumbo with cocky commander unbuttoned. He decided to end that sorry bastards life and took one shot at him. "aaargh" said that commander and after some change of information with my opponent, it was a confirmed kill. What was the range You may wonder - well nothing special, just 541 meters...

Redmow, I think You mean my friend and his statement of spiper's priorities, right? Well as I said that priority was strictly UNOFFICIAL (told by his instructor kind of "off the record") and therefore You don't necessarily hear it from ALL military instructors who are training snipers. This kind of activity can be done near the front, but not deep in enemy's back so it might fall into category on "sharpshooting" more than "sniping" - although his training aimed to be a sniper I believe. lcm1947 I believe You when You say that You won't shoot unarmed red cross guys - but when I looked Your profile I saw where You live, and it's hard to imaginate any kind of foreign aggression to Your home. As I said this kind of activity is only option if war is total and Your homeland, maybe Your own home, is threaten. You must remember that where I come from we don't practise large scale military operations aboard (peace-keeping operations of course are different matter, less use for sniper I think!). All the training we get is aimed to defend our homes, literally. That is a must since we (Finns) aren't in any kind of military assistance treaty such as NATO (at least not yet). This may soud a little rough, But in some point think one who defens his home is allowed to use ALMOST any means necessary. BTW Slobodan and Saddam werent defending their homes but their power so please not any kind of argument about that

As I said, that(sniper priority) isn't what they are trained for but UNOFFICIALLY they were told those priorities. In a very sinister way that makes sense - in a total war there is no room for humanity.The Geneve agreements was/are broken very often. If You are an "underdog" You use every mean necessary. In some point I see this reasonable if You are defending Your land. But if You are the aggressor who is invading or those dirty tricks are used in domestic conflicts You should get very hard judgement - Now I have to say I am VERY pleased that mr. Slobodan Milosevic now have to face his doings in a trial. We are playing wargames but we never must forget that in real life war is hell. And in total war there are no rules.

I was told (by my friend who was trained to be a sniper in the army) that snipers have following -UNOFFICIAL- priorities: 1.Commanders (any officer will do) 2.Guys using a radio 3.Medics (Yeah forget any international agreements!) So beware if You are one of those...

Please put me in first german wave as Ostvind or Wirbelvind likely to get toasted by zook (I was a FLAK tank driver in Finnish army). May be with a chance to punish some Ami's? Juha

If snipers are indeed included in CM2 we will see much more buttoned AFVs. In some game against my friend Ari his sharpshooter (I don't remember was it crack or elite) took out my TC from about 350-400 meters. We watched that situation afterwards and it was clear case. Having snipers could lead to some very gamey selections IMHO. With all that camouflage they will butcher relentlessly and walk away with it! At least sniper unit cost must be very well balanced! Juha

Ari just made a nice summary. Here is something considering part 3 of his summary: from: http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/events/1940.html "November 12. Foreign Commissar Viacheslaf Molotoff Consulted with Chancellor Hitler. (To clarify and activate Russo‑German relations. Ibid., Nov. 13; 1940, p. 1. Russia demanded "a free hand to strike a 'final blow at Finland and liquidate us [Finland]." Finland, p. 104. )" Why to talk abot that matter if U.S.S.R. really achieved all its objectives in winter war?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by killmore: Couple of Comments: 1) Before winter war Finns started to build a huge defense line with long range guns - Soviets thought it was a threat to them. I think KV2 was built partially to breach such defenses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Here are links about it: http://www.mannerheim.fi/10_ylip/e_mlinja.htm http://www.mannerheim-line.ru/ <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 2) I think Alan Clark wrote that Finns (& german units attached) had 2:1 advantage over Soviets in the 1941 - but Finns failed to achieve their objectives. Thus they were no super-soldiers. (And 3:2 in 1942) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What objectives were those? I thought only one objective wasn't accomplished (during so called "attack-phase" of continuation war)and that was to get shorter frontline. Reason for not getting that was poor German advance in northern Finland and eastern side on Leningrad.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skipper: Juha: The URL you referred to is an iterpretation, and quite visibly black and white one. I would be compelled, if it quoted any soviet MILITARY document that would set out plans for occupation of the whole Finland (no press articles and public speeches, please). As it is, it's a school textbook interpretation. In 1940, Mannerheim line was eventually broken. That was the background for the subsequent armistice. Notably, RKKA could but did not advance further than they wanted to go. Afaik, throughout the war USSR asserted claims to parts of Finland, those parts that eventually were ceded to soviet sovereignty as a result of war. Orders not to cross Swedish border: where is Swedish border and where is Helsinki? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm sorry I can't read text in russia (can You?) so didn't find (at this time)direct russian military acrchive about orders to occupy Finland. However following text IMHO can be trusted as a source of information. It is Official Web site of Finnish army. Here is discription about the document: "Finland and NATO, Tomas Ries (in English) "Finland and NATO" is an introduction to the open discussion of NATO in Finland. It is not meant as a definite study of this topic, but as a first contribution to a broad open examination of NATO issues. The basic purpose is to break the ice for further analysis." Here is quote from that text: "Thus the first foundation for Finland's independence is of course the fact that Finland's Defence Forces prevented two determined Soviet attempts to occupy Finland through military force. The first in 1939 - 1940, and the second in the summer of 1944. With today's release of archival material there is no longer any doubt that Stalin in fact intended to occupy all of Finland in 1939, and most of southern Finland in 1944. Nor should there be any doubt that had he succeeded Finland's fate during the Cold War would have resembled that of Estonia - at best that of Poland." here is URL for You : http://www.mil.fi/tiedotus/julkaisut/finland_and_nato/chapter_1.html Before You question this source I remind You that Finland is a democracy with free press, member of EU and don't have any need for anti-russian propaganda. So it's no wonder You haven't see stalins real plans in Your history books (especially if there was a red star on cover...) [ 05-30-2001: Message edited by: Juha Ahoniemi ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skipper: > You mean that U.S.S.R. wasn't interested > in finlads as a whole. No, I mean just what I say: ie, that soviet troops in Karelia did not have any directives or orientations from Stavka (high command) aiming them at Helsinki. At least, nothing like that is mentioned in the books. On the contrary, limited strategic objectives, such as I quoted from Meretskov, are mentioned. I think, Stalin would love get the whole, but it seems that he did not consider it a feasible task at any stage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> From http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/war1.html : “In the winter dawn of 30 November four Soviet Armies with 23 divisions - some 460,000 men with over 2,000 tanks - began advancing across the length of Finland's 1,200 km long eastern border. Their objective was to occupy the entire territory of Finland by the end of the year, installing Moscow's puppet 'Terijoki Government' in Helsinki, and establishing a new 'Democratic Republic of Finland'. Their troops were issued with detailed written warnings not to cross into Sweden once they had reached Finland's western border, and the 7. Army included a military band for the victory parade in Helsinki.” Stalin's plan to bisect Finland from : http://www.publiscan.fi/sc20e-0.htm "Stalin had clear plans," says the war historian Colonel Sampo Ahto. "Already during the Winter War the Soviet Union attacked with two divisions at Salla in an effort to cut right across Finland and reach the Swedish border at Tornio. However, Finland defended herself so effectively that the operation was a failure - like nearly every other Russian plan in the Winter War." From: http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/finbomb/finbomb.htm “Stalin had planned to occupy Finland in two weeks, whereafter Molotov's lies would soon be forgotten. The Soviet Union had already set up a puppet government, "the People's Government of Finland" (made up of Finnish -born Soviet Communist party functionaries surviving the purges of '37) and claimed that all military action was only to help that government. There was no war, just action against the "armed bands" of the Helsinki government to help the oppressed people of Finland: this was the official line of the Kreml. The Finnish people, however, tenaciously refused to be liberated by Stalin.” <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Protocols that you mentioned meant exactly the following: if one side undertook operations in her "sphere of influence", the other side wouldnt mind it. Btw, Stalin and USSR in general were not notorious for breaking treaties. Not that their track record was perfectly clean (whose was?), but it was one of the best. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> About soviets keeping their treaties, Finland signed a non-aggression pact with them in 1932. Soviets broke it 28.11.1939 and cut diplomatic ties with Finland 29.11.1939. Next day they attacked. From: http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/before.html “In international politics, Stalin trusted only the Red Army, which was now purged of its old officers. He used the army to consolidate his foothold in neighbouring countries. Pieces of paper like nonagression pacts did not interest him in the least. “ Roosevelt knew the name of the game too : at the time of Stalin's invasion of Finland at the end of November 1939, FDR had privately expressed dismay and remarked: "No human being can tell what the Russians are going to do next.'' <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Besides, it was not terribly smart to have any misunderstandings with other allies in a crucial moment of fall '44. Mind you, at that time it was not known yet, whether the war will last for a few months or a few years, and indeed whether nazy regime will survive or not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> In previous post Skipper Wrote: “ Diplomacy of all sorts played a big role in the outcome of that conflict. Ex, in 1942 USSR, UK and USA made a pledge to each other - not to make any new territorial acquisitions as a result WWII.” Quite opposite! Read http://www.hazlitt.org/e-texts/fdrmyth/fdrmyth_Chapter_Nine___The_Great_Confere.htm There is stuff about Atlantic Charter : Soviet ­ British ­ American agreement recognizing Russia's claims to the Baltic states, Finland and the eastern half of Poland. (well not all were included in final agreement if I understood the text correctly). Point is that Stalin got quite free hands! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> > The cold fact is: ALL COUNTRIES THAT GAVE > UP TO STALIN'S DEMANDS CEASED TO EXIST! I dont understand this statement. Which countries were you thinking about? :confused: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I mean Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> School education is fine and dandy, but... Real history is always too complicated to teach to a class of teenagers. Everywhere kids are taught a simplified, black and white interpretation, where their own kin are inevitably white.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But I'm not a teenager sitting in a history lesson and there is a lot of stuff that wasn't in the books when I was. Opening of Moscow archives reveals many interesting things, and Finns have surely dug up some stuff about WWII including original plans Stalin had for Finland. They make great document these days, the investigators of those archives. Just one more comment about situation in 1944: From: http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/after.html “The allies invaded Normandy on June 6, 1944. Three days later Stalin launched a major offensive in the East. It was directed against Finnish troops on the Karelian Isthmus.The scale of the offensive was enormous, even when viewed from the perspective of the Second World War as a whole. The concentration of over 3000 guns broke through Finnish positions and Viipuri was lost on June 20. The Finns were nevertheless able to stop the offensive soon thereafter, and the Russians realized that further advances with the forces at their disposal were no longer possible. Stalin’s massive offensive was senseless by all accounts since Finnish troops did not pose a military threat. Its geopolitical inconsistency also became evident when the advance came to a halt and the troops were transferred to the 'race to Berlin'.” [ 05-30-2001: Message edited by: Juha Ahoniemi ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skipper: Note that soviet generals never had a directive to go to Helsinki - neither in 1940, nor in 1944. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I assume You mean that U.S.S.R. wasn't interested in finlads as a whole. Well how about this: The German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact and the secret additional protocol of August 23, 1939. In the secret protocol Finland and the Baltic countries were included in the Russian side of spheres of interest in the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to these countries. The Pact and the Secret Additional Protocol can be found at http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/pact.htm So Yes, Stalin wanted Finland. I don't have a direct link for You about his orders for his generals right now but believe me the original idea of invade Finland (without a provocation or declaration of war, I might add) was to make Finland a "bitch" to U.S.S.R. The cold fact is: ALL COUNTRIES THAT GAVE UP TO STALIN'S DEMANDS CEASED TO EXIST! I'm very interested about Your sources that say U.S.S.R. never intented to take whole Finland or go to Helsinki like You said(sounds like history rewritten by the winning party, wouldn't be the first time though) - because alone in the internet (leaving historybooks aside) there is tons of information saying just opposite. In 1944 the main purpore might have been to get Finland out of the war and free troops to elsewhere, but battles were very big, hard and real. It would be naive to think that stalin held back because of some pledge with allies - Everybody knows how he kept his treatys and promises! To this day I have believed what they told me at history lessons at school - thanks to our veterans (who BTW don't get the respect they should get from modern age countrymen. I guess kids just don't understand)! Anyway it is very interesting to get feedback and opinions from non-finns about WWII history considering us. Thank You for that and excuse me if this subject is emotional for us. In common we respect greatly what our veterans achieved and owe them dearly. When I look at the old Warsaw-Pact countries and Baltic states and their post-war history it makes me feel even more proud of our veterans.

I'd like to see Steel Panthers-style unit list- window (when wanted, of course)where you can pick the unit You want in command phase (why not when watching the movie, too) and see the condition of all of my units by one quick look...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar: As you see, it doesnt take much military wit and know how to make use of such convenient natural defenses. One is only to make ambush after ambush, until the enemy is weak enough to finally be counterattacked in turn. If the Finns took part in the attack of the USSR along the Germans, they would have been butchered just as the Germans were. Why? Because the Soviets were now on the defense, among land and terrain they knew. The "mythical Finnish warrior" is mostly based on the fact that the Finns know how to defend terrain which is very well suited for the defense. If my backyard was under attack, I'd know how to defend it better then anyone since I know every foot of my backyard like the back of my hand. That's the whole point. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dear mr.Commissar (from Russia with love?), So You think Finns just defended their backyard. Maybe the terrains we operated equal to droppings of a fly by Soviet scale, but here is link for You where You can watch animated map show about Finnish continuation war: http://www.koulukanava.fi/historia/ww2/jatkosot/jatko.htm The texts are in Finnish but You can see the dates and animation tells how frontline moved. Please check sources in the net about casualties - numbers don't lie. Your attempts to umdermine Finnish military efforts in WWII makes me wonder Your sources. Please visit also http://www.hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/finland_wwii.html/ It is great site in English, not too hard to understand even for You (Ponimai?). Great links and stuff, not all about Finns but WWII in general, too. Juha

Mark IV, A slight mix-up perhaps - there were many foreigners in waffen SS, less in Totenkopf I think. I hope my friend Ari will contribute more about this matter... Juha [This message has been edited by Juha Ahoniemi (edited 02-21-2001).]

Tirpitz, In my standards "occupation" (when talking about countries)means that foreign troops control majority of terrain of target country and its legal goverment is overthrown and replaced by a "puppet" one (fox example Vichy). You can't say Soviet Union got occupied can You? It's up how do You define "occupation". Anyway I hope You evade fate of Your namesake (in what fiord was she sank anyway? Can't remember that.) Oh and we should also have (in CM2) possibility to have Germans vs Italians and other combinations too...history gives many possibilities - Vichy France vs British and so on... And about the luftwaffe, it seems that Göring was the best thing that ever happened to allies. That guy really knew how to screw up! (just watched video "A Phoenix Rising/A history of Luftwaffe) Well I just hope BTS gives us at least some of them. Juha

Joseph, Where did You left Your "buddy" Julius Heide? I guess You are a Sven Hassel fan too? I wish there were something from his I haven't read...His books simply kicks ass! Juha [This message has been edited by Juha Ahoniemi (edited 10-03-2000).]

Yep, should have been "in Europe" (edited that now). It is easy to be "too fast" when You write and forget a word or too. It wasn't the first time and it won't be the last. Just testing if You are awake.. Juha

If Finland is included, there should be a chance to fight Finland vs Germany battles too (Finland had to get rid of Germans in Lappland after truce with Soviets). I'm looking forward to have Finnish ski squadrons with satchel charges and molotov-cocktails...And panzershcreks and fausts (supplied by Germans to stop major spring offensive by Soviets).I think BTS will have trouble thinking how to simulate some historical facts about Finns...I'd love to play the Ihantala-battle! BTW did You know that there was only 3 countries in Europe that took part in WWII and did NOT get occupied? Yep, Great Britain, Russia and ...Finland! (same goes for capital cities:London, Moscow and Helsinki) [This message has been edited by Juha Ahoniemi (edited 10-03-2000).]