Måkjager

The following from the new Men at Arms "The Waffen SS-(3) 11th to 23rd Divisions" Designations Feb-Oct 1943 Sturmbrigade Reichsfuhrer -SS October 1943 16.SS-Panzergrenadier Division Reichsfuhrer-SS Commanders Feb-Oct 1943 SS-Obersturmfuhrer Karl Gesele Oct-43 - Oct-44 SS-Gruppenfuhrer Max Simon Oct-44 - May-45 SS-Brigadefuhrer Otto Baum Principle elements ( Units ) SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 35 SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 36 SS-Panzergrenadier Lehr Regiment 16 SS-Panzer Abteilung 16 ( Assault guns ) SS-Panzerjager Abteilung 16 ( strong in SP guns ) SS-Artellerie Regiment 16 SS-Flak Abteilung 16 SS-Panzer Aufklarungs Abteilung 16 SS-Pionier Battalion 16 The SS-Panzer Abteilung 16 seems to have had 30 Stugs on their roster. Not sure what the SS-Panzerjager Abteilung 16 had... might have been more Stugs or maybe Marder's. The SS-Panzer Aufklarungs Abteilung 16 seems to have been a very nasty unit withover 2000 civilian deaths on their hands. Regards Måkjager

Some old info from a long ago post. I have been recently reading James Lucas “War on the Eastern Front-1941-1945 - The German Soldier in Russia”. There is a chapter that covers the use of the Nebelwerfer’s (Smoke Projectors ) in Russia and two accounts from the Russian and German perspective. Below is the first account by a Pole serving with the Russian Army in the spring of 1942. “Our regiment formed up ina forest and moved out of cover to form the second wave of the attack. We had no special winter camouflage clothing- only the first line was that well equipped and there was a reason for this. it was their task to crawl forward without being seen until the line was within assault distance of the German positions , and then to rush them. we in the second wave , were to consolidate the gains which the 1st line were to make. My battalion began to form line but here and there there were still little groups of men gathered around the officers. They were chiefly HQ personnel, company officers and senior sergeants all getting last minute instructions. We were a young unit but most of us had already seen action and we were not green troops. There was not much noise. The sound of voices and an occasional shot from a rifle. No artillery fire at all from our side for it was to be a shock assault. Then suddenly as we moved forward away from the trees we heard a whining sound which grew and then we saw smoke trails in the sky. I thought at first that these were markers showing our positions to the Nazi artillery observers but my right had neighbour thought that they were aircraft crashing. The projectiles moved fast but were visible. Two of them exploded about 20m behind our line , 2 about the same distance in front and one each to r left and right immediately in front of us. This number of explosions immediately upon each other was like a 6 gun battery firing salvo. The casualties were slight although the explosions were quite shattering. I noticed that the shell casing peeled back like a banana as it flew through the air after detonating and as i watched it struck and nearly cut in half one of the men marching behind our wave. We had not taken cover but continued marching and then suddenly we saw sheets of flames coming from behind the German lines , then smoke and then the howling again. This time the mass of smoke and flames roaring towards us seemed to cover the whole battalion front. The whole area in front of us and behind us was blotted out and what seemed to be hundreds of explosion occurred simultaneously. Snow and earth clods were flung up obscuring visibility and then came the cry for medical personnel to help the wounded. Under this first mass bombardment we had gone to ground and thus were a stationary target. within seconds , it seemed of the first flight of missiles exploding the second wave had come down and then a third. after that i lost count - it just seemed as if the whole sky was raining noise and explosives on us. We lay immobile with our senses numbed for what seemed a long time and then my right hand man touched me on the shoulder and pointed towards groups of men who were streaming back towards the woods. we thought that the regiment had been ordered to withdraw and we were rather pleased that we were going to be away from the shelling , but then as we ran we noticed that quite a lot of the men had flung away their guns and were screaming at the top of their voices, throwing off their equipment so that they could run faster. Others had collapsed trembling and were crying or were having spasms like epilepsy. Even before we had reached the safety of the wood the Nazis had increased the range and had also brought in conventional artillery so that the tree line suddenly disappeared in smoke and explosions catching the poor devils who had gathered there hoping to escape from the shelling. Even when we had penetrated deeper into the woods the smoke trails followed us and their bombs exploding in the tree tops had the effect of air burst shells. When order had been restored we were sent again to carry out the attack and this time we had barely emerged from the trees when the barrage came down again. The officers were desperate. If the unit did not reach its objective the commanders - in those days anyway - were held responsible and were either summarily executed or arrested , tried and then shot. At the end of the third attempt we had shrunk to less than half strength and the attack was called off. The 1st wave had penetrated the German line in parts but being without support they had been driven back. Their regiment was very bitter at our cowardice as they called to see it , and their survivors were sent back t rest behind the lines. I was one of a group told to collect the equipment which ad ben left lying on the battlefield and as a former artillery man was interested enough to examine the shell fragments which were lying about. These were very large and it was clear that the purpose of the projectiles was not to produce shrapnel but to create a blast effect. The shallow craters indicated that the projectiles had an instantaneous fuse and the snow around the craters were yellow and black streaked. The pieces of casing which I found showed that the walls of the projectile were thin and the blast effect which i had seen and felt indicated that the explosive charge was quite heavy in relation to the weight of the case. It was a weapon which broke our regiment inside a quarter of an hour and as i have said before we were not green troops.” Lucas describes the various type of “Nebelwerfer” that the Germans used during the war starting from the 15 cm Type 41. Below are the stats 15 cm 41 HE / Smoke Projector weight 540 kg Weight of Projectile 34.2 / 35 kg Range 6900 / 6800m Thrust (approx.) 2000 kg speed after burnout 340m/sec 21 cm 42 HE Projector weight 600 kg Weight of Projectile 110 kg Range 8000m Thrust (approx.) 4000 kg speed after burnout 340m/sec 28 cm HE Projector weight 850 kg Weight of Projectile 83.7 kg Range 1800m Thrust (approx.) speed after burnout 140m/sec 32 cm Incendiary Projector weight n/a Weight of Projectile 79.2 kg Range 2200m Thrust (approx.) 2000 kg speed after burnout 130m/sec 30 cm HE Projector weight 1100 kg Weight of Projectile 126 kg Range 6900 / 6800m Thrust (approx.) 4000 kg speed after burnout n/a A 10 cm muzzle loading smoke projecting Nebelwerfer 40 had been used in Poland and France but it was primitive and the germans army sought something better. The first Nebelwerfer to enter service on the Russian Front was the Nebelwerfer 41 ( entered service May 1941)-15 cm 6 barrelled smooth bore projector mounted on a light split trail carriage that could be easily man handled by its five man crew. These nebelwerfers were organised into a battery of 6 projectors , giving the battery in total 36 “Mortar” tubes. The bomb was fitted with a highly sensitive contact fuse which when striking home detonated the explosives that were located at the rear of the casing with the front being taken up with the rocket motor. This meant that the bomb exploded some 50-60cm ABOVE ground , leaving only a shallow crater while spreading its casing fragments in a wide area which were more deadly compared to conventional artillery as the successive explosions washed the area. The destructive force of the nebelwerfer was compounded by its rate of fire. According to Lucas and german reports an experienced crew could fire off its 6 bombs in 10 seconds and be ready to launch its next salvo with in another 60 seconds time The 21 cm Nebelwerfer used the same split trail carriage but had 5 launcher tubes instead of the six found on the 15 cm 41 system.The shell was a reversion of that found in the 15 cm round in that the warhead was located in front of the propulsion system and a delayed action could be enabled for use against fortifications and such like. When the bomb struck it would burrow into the target and then detonate like a land mine. Its initial rate of fire was the same as the Nebelwerfer 15 cm 41 ..but the reload time took 2-3 minutes. The 15 cm 42 projector was a redesigned launcher mount to be used on the Maultier , Sdkfz 4/1 and other half tracked vehicles. This system had 10 barrels instead of the 6 normally found on the Type 41. They were arranged in 2 rows of 5...one beneath the other. It had a 3 man crew and there were 8 vehicles in a battery...a significant increase in firepower as the battery could deploy 80 barrels compared to the towed batteries 36. During 1943 the 28/32 cm Nebelwerfer 41 was introduced and this had the ability to fire either the 28 cm HE or 32 cm Incendiary bombs. This system differed from the previous Type 41 launcher in that the bombs were now launched form 2 triple metal cage type racks. This system had developed originally out of a single ground mounted launcher used to fire an incendiary bomb. The final type was the 30 cm HE Nebelwerfer 42 which again had 2 triple launchers. It could fire either HE or Incendiary bombs up to a range of 7000m. There was also a mounting know as “Wurfrahmen 40” that could be fitted to the SdKfz 251 HT which consisted of 3 launchers on either side of the half track. These could be used to fire the 28 cm HE or 32 cm Incendiary bombs and were found in the 3.Pioneer Zug of the Pioneer Battalion. The importance of the Nebelwerfer units to the German Army can be seen from the growth in the numbers deployed form the start of the conflict to 1945. A total of 100 officers , 332 NCOs and 1612 men made up the strength of the Nebelwerfer units at the beginning of the second world war. By 1945 this had grown to 5,257 officers , 18,150 NCOs and 112,321 men. During the course of the war there were 20 Brigades of 31 Standard Projector Regiments raised together with with 15 Heavy Projector Regiments , 3 regiments in permanently fixed positions , 4 training and replacement regiments and 25 independent battalions. These units did sustain heavy losses as they were required to be close to the front line so as to give support to the infantry. As an example the 51st Regiment which had been one of the first Nebelwerfer regiments to be formed was destroyed 3 times in little over a year. During a 5 month time span between July and December 1943 the 51st Regiment fired 68,344 HE rounds of 15 cm calibre and 8,325 of 21 cm. The targets had been 43 tank groupings , 342 forming up areas , 145 Soviet Infantry assaults and 42 enemy gun positions. As an indication of the fire power of a Nebelwerfer Brigade comprising of a standard and a heavy regiment ...the brigade commander had on call 384 x 15 cm ( 64 systems ) and 325 x 21 cm ( 65 systems ). German reports speak of such a brigade/regiment being able to bombard a target area with 6 tons of explosives or incendiaries war heads in 5 seconds and to produce this barrage every minute. A battalion could smother a target area 2000m wide x 100m deep with 108 rockets in 10 seconds...and then the same again with in a minute." Hope this is of some help. regards Måkjager

Hey Mr. Tittles I collected and scanned those pix while researching the question of the Panther mantle armour for CMAK beta as a fellow player raised the question "Why was his Panther's dying from T-34/85 hit's on the mantle area" in the CMHQ chat area a while back. Being the curious type with too much time on my hands i devleved into it. The "reinforced" mantle pix is found in the "Achtung Panzer- Panther" book that was published in japan. Its the ONLY time i have seen such a photo. I was able to ask H.L.Doyle his opinion on the matter.He told me that both he and Thomas Jentz have never seen any documentation in regards to introducing such a "interim" solution and put it down too two possibilities. The Panther mantle's were made by several firms. These were castings made using sand molds. 1st possibility is that the strenghtened" or "reinforced" mantle is a one off that was utilised due to the dire war material situation during the latter course of the war. 2nd is that this particular firm had trouble with its sand molds , causing it( the firm ) to alter the mold in some was so as the mantle could be cast successfully. He also informed me that in some photo's of the cast mantle's you might see what looks like a saucer shaped "plug-end" somewhere on the mantle. This at first may look like a field repair job. What in fact it was is a "leak" in the mold during casting that left a big bump. which was later sanded/milled down.( Just read that Krupp was ordered in August 1943 to remove such protrusions from the mantle face - the appeared either side of the gun.) The casting of the mantle's required some milling to the back of the mantle.. this was only done in the area that would receive the gun cradle. As regard's to standards... the German firms did operate under the spec's of up to + or - 10mm in armour tolerance. Regards Måkjager

Trocja's 120mm thick mantle is incorrect as the standard was 100mm according to better informed sources. That 50mm inner piece i dare say did not take up much area. The frontal armour plate was a casting of 100mm thickness. Regards Måkjager

Here you will find some pix i scanned in while researching some information for CM. Regards Måkjager

Thanks lads Best Måkjager

LOL Tim.. just goes to show i am really keeping up with the times bud best Måkjager

Tim .. i have that History of the Fallschrim Panzerkorps Hermann Goring book. Will trawl thru it to see if there is anything of value in it for you Regards Måkjager

Hi all , would anybody have a quick and dirty list of all the Panzer , Panzer Grenadier and Jagdpanzer units that served in Italy from 1943-45 handy ??? Thanks in advance Best Måkjager

"Jochen Peiper- Commander Panzer Regiment Leibstandarte" by Patrick Agte gives KG Peiper with the following vehicles operational and fuelled - 6 Kingtigers 19 Panthers 6 Panzer IVs and lots of SPWs. The lead Panther into Stoumont was #223 commanded by SS Rottenfuhrer franz Prahm. Quote" we took several hits from anti tank guns one after the other from the direction of the church. This jammed our turret. While i ( gunner) was trying to aim the gun at the antitank gun , despite the jamming we were hit from our left by an anti tank gun shell in the engine compartment. Then the tank began to burn" From the 143rd site - "0730, Gun 2 which was emplaced in Stoumont, engaged a Mark VI tiger tank at a range of 40 yards, knocking it out and setting it afire with seven rounds. The crew of the tank were completely destroyed." That to me sounds like the same engagment. It was Panthers that the US forces ko'ed..not Kingtigers. It also states that La Gleize was covered to the north and northeast by the 6 Kingtigers of sSS.PzAbt 501 Looking at "Michael Wittman and the Tiger Commanders of the Leibstandarte" also by Patrick Agte on p.511 it states "none of the Tigers had been committed to the attack on Stoumont". It also gives 6 KTs being in La Gleize at that time. Hope this helps regards Måkjager

Google 1 shot.. 1 kill web page Rgeards Måkjager

More like into the Cave..roll back the stone and STARVE the Troll Måkjager

Panzer_M ... is this a Historical / semi historical or fictional Op that you are working on? I ask as the Jagdtiger did not enter service until the 3rd September 1944 and that unit was the 653rd sPzjg Abt which was based on in the Western Europe. Just some info Regards Måkjager

Correct indeed Marcus Måkjager

Indeed Vergeltungswaffe ...we tried out of the goodness in our hearts Anyway.... i think its time i started to play my latest game of " I spy with my little eye something beginning with T"... Regards Måkjager

Ok beholders..lets try it this way. What CM game do you own? #1- CMBO? #2- CMBB? #3-CMAK? Which of the above listed games do you think the "Henschel" turreted Kingtiger should be in? If you answer YES to both #1 and #2 then you will be glad to know that the Kingtiger with the Henschel turret is indeed found within these two games..CMBO and CMBB as the actual vehicle did see active service in the combat zones covered by these games. If you are talking about the "Porsche" turreted Kingtiger you will be glad to know that it is indeed found within CMBO...but not CMBB ( representing one or two vehicles that may have seen action on the Russian front was felt to be a waste of time and resources by BFC , hence its absence from CMBB) and CMAK...where it did not see service either. Any "other" Kingtiger projects were just that..projects that did not see combat service..and hence they are not included in ANY of the CM games. So Sir..what are you asking for?? Regards Måkjager

This is CMBB i presume you are speaking about?? regards Måkjager

This is CMBB i presume you are speaking about?? regards Måkjager

beholders..why do you think a paper panzer design that never made it off the drawing table and into frontline combat should be included in a historically based tactical game??? That ''photo not ilistrated'' design you mention is just about the same as the one illustrated in the Achtung Panzer link..except that the turret is at the most forward position possible. The VK4502(P) illustrated in the Achtung Panzer link is a paper base design by Ferdinand Porsche, using the chassie/hull drawings to experiment with possible locations for the turret ( Porsche round mantle design ). I'm curious..just like Vergeltungswaffe. Regards Makjager

sPz Abt 503 received 12 Porsche turreted Kingtiger for its 1st Company and another 12 Porsche turreted Kingtigers for its 3rd Company. So the 5 from Panzer-Kompanie 316 (Fkl) 316 / Pz Div Lehr and the 24 from sPzAbt 503 make 29 Kingtigers that were present in France. As to the other 21(?) Porsche Kingtigers..likely distributed to the Panzer training / replacement schools. Måkjager

Pz Div Lehr received only 5 Kingtigers with the Porsche turret. Måkjager

Panzer_M Welcome Sir Your first concern regarding the effects of CAS is all too real when the targets attacked are light and unarmoured vehicles with vehicle born squads. This is what does happen when a force that has NO AA assets gets attacked by CAS. Did you have your forces dispersed at the time..or where they in a group??? As to the question of guns not firing i have tested the 20mm Flak 38 , the Quad Flak 38 , the 37mm Flak and the Wirbelwind and all these guns fired , engaged and shot down enemy aircraft. This test involved 4 LGGs and 4 each of the AA guns on the map at the same time.. ie 16 AA assets. What you may like to bear in mind in the future is the actual facing of the AA guns and their placement on the map. The SPAA guns ( Wirbelwinds) are controlled by the AI as AFVs....this means once a target disappears and is no longer a threat the turret will go back to the 12 o'clock position. With static guns and SPAA it is important that if u have MORE than one that you face them in different directions N/NE/E/SE/S/SW/W/NW/N ( if you can and are lucky to have that amount of AA. The reason for these facings is that the enemy CAS is likey to attack from any or all map sides. So ..if you have all your assets facing N .. and the enemy CAS attacks from the S you will lose time with the AA assest having to rotate and elevate and aquire the targets..meanwhile it ( the aircraft ) has lined up on its target and likely launched its attack and possibly zoomed away off the map. This can lead to a lot of frustration leading some to think that AA guns are not working. Not so. If you have at least one AA facing the direction of the enemy aircraft you will buy your side a wee bit of time as it can engage the aircraft that much quicker.. and hopefully put it off its aim..if not shooting it down. More guns = more of a chance for success and having them face off in different directions helps. As to the "huge" Quad Flak..that is a 3d model scale issue that BFC are aware of and its likely not on the ist to fix Hope this helps you somewhat. Regards Måkjager

No Andreas .. i have not been to Germany to have tea or coffee with Herr Carius I recently picked up the Christopher W. Willbeck book "Sledgehammers- Strenghts and Flaws of the Tiger Tank Battalions in World War II". The Prologue: Through the eyes of a Tiger Ace is written by Otto Carius and the last paragraph in full is as follows. "A brief word about this book: As former frontline soldiers , my comrades and I do appreciate every author who holds discipline , chivalry , and readiness to fight in esteem. I have personally given up hope that politicians who never experienced war first hand will ever realise that war is the worst of all possible alternatives" I just thought it was a very insightful observation that has application to all times and era's. Regards Måkjager

Down with this sort of thing Father Ted! Regards Måkjager

tut tut tut Sergio.... u do have a habit of cast wide and forgetting about the fish that lurk near by The History of the 12th SS-Panzer Division HJ by Huber Meyer states that the 89.Inf and 271.Inf Divisions were in the area. Give me a day to recover the data for you bud Best Måkjager