Lars

Malakovski, just make sure it's on a huge map. You know, just to make the Gnome feel even more inadequate.

A bunch of Anglican heretics? You sure you want to go there?

Well, I sort of see it as just an extension of the land warfare onto the sea. Why is everybody pressing for a larger map if we're not going to do anything with about half of it? btw, did you figure out the cost of mining those two Baltic hexes by air? 40 mpp plus possible interception of the airfleets, costing about 80-160 mpp to rebuild them. And if the Germans never had any intention of making a sortie, boy, did you ever just make a bad decision. But the real fun is, for the Germans, did he or didn't he...? [ June 14, 2005, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Lars ]

Regarding mine price. Look at it this way, John. Say the Brits want to mine the exit for the Baltic. They can run up and mine two hexes for 20 mpp, and risk getting hammered by the German airfleets, cruisers, and sub. Or they mine further out. Less risky, but much more costly. Mining the exits for both the North Sea and Channel would cost about 120 mpp. And the Brits just never seem to have an extra 120 mmp laying around. And the mine goes away in a year. Still seem cheap?

If Hubert wants to add a mindsweeper unit, sure. They only built about a million of the things in WWII. I was just working off SC1 design as those were the only parameters I really got nailed down. I always felt it was Cruiser/Destroyer in SC1, plus it's simpler to implement that way.

@JohnC I didn't make them cheap, on purpose. Also, you'd only have to relay a marker once a year, hardly an onerous task. And you only need to clear a mine if it's really in your way. Some would find them useful, some would ignore them for other options. Sort of like fortifications on land. Or do you feel the same way about those?

Mine warfare ain't sexy, Navies ignore it even today. But it's cheap and dang effective. Ever wonder why the Germans built those submarine pens in France? It wasn't because they wanted to. And it wasn't because they really needed to add a little range for the U-boats. It was because of the constant losses to mines running the gauntlet to the Atlantic through the chokepoints. Here's some relevant snippets from a 1943 German naval briefing, to give a better idea of what was going on. On the Allied side, you have the problem of a German sub or plane laying a few mines in a harbor entrance, sinking a ship or two, but more important is the psychological effect. Nobody's going out until the Navy clears the entrance. Which is even better than sinking a ship. If you bottle up 30 or 40, it's the same as sinking them. Remember, mines aren't so much for killing, they are a area denial weapon. So what does this mean for SC? Here's what I think would be a pretty simple addition that would add a lot of game depth to the naval side. Add a option to the pop-up action menu for Subs, Cruisers, Air Fleets, and Bombers to lay one mine marker in a tile per turn. Subs – 15 MPP cost Cruiser or Battleship – 10 MPP cost Air – 20 MPP Cost These mines would of course be hidden for the other side until hit by something or spotted. Damage done will be random. Cruisers will be the minesweeper, having the spotting ability and clearing a mine hex by moving adjacent, with a one or two turn delay (again random) to clear the field. Costs of laying a mine need to be kept arbitrarily high to keep the map from becoming littered with the things. Also, a minefield degrades over time. So, after one year from placement, mine marker disappears, reflecting the need to keep seeding a field. For game play, I think this would add a lot. Germans could mine Allied harbors entrances and hope to catch a ship coming in for repairs, or perhaps that Army in transport. Also could be used to bottle up that annoying Black Sea fleet by protecting your flank. Or lay a mine on a likely invasion point on the French coast, forcing the Allies to either clear it or invade elsewhere. Or try to lay a protected corridor for a Sealion attempt. For the Allies, same thing. Try to get those subs as they come out of port. Or lay a strip to force them to come into air spotting and attack range. Or really screw up a German SeaLion attempt by mining the landing areas. I'm sure you guys will think up a lot more dirty tricks. After all, that's what mines are for. Thoughts?

MacArthur was in the Pacific.

What I found interesting was that they lost 20 of the buggers in training due to RAF mining the Bay of Danzig. Mines! We need mines!

Also, the type XXI would have been a killer. link Put a quieter prop on it, and you probably could use it today.

Well, we've already got ice, so why not? At the very least, Shallow would be a good add-on for storms also. No sailor wants to get stuck on a coastline in a storm, they run for deep water. Say you get caught launching a D-Day in bad weather. You'd have a chance of some of those transports going to the bottom or increased disruption after landing.

Well, if we really want to get into this... Cold water oceans are murky due to the bottom being warmer than the top, which brings up nutrients to feed plankton, which clouds up the water. Doesn't happen in warm water, which is why the Med (and Caribbean) is a lot clearer. Then, in coastal areas, you also have currents and turbidity from runoff. For real fun, look at this pic of the US East Coast. You'd be safe sitting off New York Harbor in the Hudson River runoff, but screwed sitting off the New Jersey Coast. Water clarity on US east coast The Gulf Stream also adds a bit of spice to the US coast line by mixing things up. You wouldn't always be sure if you're sitting in a murky spot or a clear one. So not only are we going to need Shallow and Deep, we're going to need Clear and Murky, and have them randomly move in some areas and depending on season. btw, the last German subs had estimated dive depths of 400m, which is nothing to sneer at, even today.

Actually, not a bad idea. You'd just need to add two types of hex (one shallow and one deep), and would better reflect the situation in the Med, where the problem was most prevalent. Could also be handy for storms.

And the Australians weep. Good job. Man, you guys missed a nice day yesterday. But am I ever sunburned.

Geminis are notorious for thriving on incest.

In other news, Seanachai, dalem, and Papa Kahn are slipping. Not only did it take all three of them ganging up on me in Sword of Rome to make sure I wouldn't win. But they left TWO bottles of booze behind at the end of the night. Which made Sunday a very nice day on the lake indeed.

The orphanage just found your records, eh? Pity. Now that poor woman has to change her identity again.

I can't even remember a game where battleships were ever upgraded. All you ever see are subs and carriers running around. If the other guy has lots of carriers, I build subs and hope they dive a couple of times. BB's and cruisers are sitting ducks.

Doesn't a level 5, strength 15 battleship running around do about the same thing?

And the Navies were all still hung up on the big gun battleship. What do you propose for following the wrong doctrine?

Edwin, Doctrine is a system of behavior to be followed. It doesn't translate into 5% cheaper aircraft carriers, or anything else. For instance, the Marines had a doctrine of amphibious assault pre-WWII. It didn't buy them any landing craft.

From sheer boredom I think we're all sitting around redesigning SC1, while Hubert has made his basic design decisions for SC2 already. COME ON HUBERT, WHERE'S THE DEMO!!!

Isn't this already reflected in the Tech system? And most of what you got there Edwin reflects industrial policy, not doctrine. But still, yet another interesting concept.

Ok. that sounds reasonable. And random first rebuilt HQ value might represent the odd genius rising through the ranks (if you get lucky and get a high value). But for the second and succeeding rebuilt HQs, I'd really cut the values, maybe down to a 2 or 3. You'd only be buying the things for supply at that point anyway. I'm just not sure how often the situation is going to come up though. Hey, how about a negative value for when you've finally work you're way down to the Himmler's of the world?

That is EXACTLY the rack we're looking for. Sheesh, the quality of Jedi now days. I'm moving across to the SITH instead. Mace </font>