Steve Clark

You guys are good! The discussion centered on the strategies and tactics of the RW, ACW and such shows a very good understanding. To the tactical booklist, I would add Stephen Sears "Landscape Turned Red", an in-depth, yet readable account of Antietam, a comprehensive one-day battle. Now if I can only translate my 20 years of studying RW and ACW military history to WW2, maybe I will be able understand some of what you guys are talking about in the other threads.

In the Civ2 forums at Apolyton (which have been going on for years), someone made a comment about new posters asking questions that had been asked literally hundreds of times before. The best response was that even though most questions cover old ground, there are always fresh answers because of new strategies, techniques and such. In other words, a different way of approaching an old problem. I would suspect the same would be true here since the shipped version of CM is only a month old and as more players become experienced, they would perhaps come up with a new way or approach to a particular problem.

Which brings up a point I tried to make earlier, in order to play CM, you have know the attributes and capabilities of the various units. For someone like who knows very little about WW2 tactics, I wouldn't have a clue as to what to effectively do with a tank. Others have said just go in there and try things out but as a squad commander (?), you do have a good idea as to how to maneuver and when to fire or not. All goes to show that, unless you're already are familiar with such units, you better at least have the fundamentals down.

Soundtrack to Gettysburg, my favorite movie of all time.

Greasy, that was right on! I, too, am a devotee of Mr. Geryk and he is one of the best reviewers on the net. Most on-lines reviews, imo, are written by 19 yr old morons and you can tell that 1) they don't know how to write effectively and 2) was a slacker in REALLY playing and playtesting the game. Bruce Geryk is an exception. As far as sounds, what would be perfect sound would be if it accurately simulated reality. In anyone of those battles, imagine if you were to capture and hear the actual sounds from WW2. It would be so loud and chaotic and filled with inane chatter most of the time, that it would render the game unlistenable. BTS obviously obviously selected only those sounds that are pertinent to gameplay without overwhelming the user.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Melloj: ... I am very interested in World War 2.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think that's the key, not if you have or haven't played wargames. A number of my fellow grognards do not have any interest in CM (really). The reason is that they prefer the musket-rifle/cannon/cavalry combats that are typical in the Revolutionary/Napolean/Civil War eras. With WW2, you have to like fighting with automatic weapons, tanks, howitzers, fighter planes and the like. If not, CM will not be appealing, no matter how great the game is. [This message has been edited by Steve Clark (edited 07-06-2000).]

I think I'm missing something here. I don't think there's enough time in the world for anyone to play 4 years of campaigning at 60 seconds intervals, even breaking it up into battle chunks?

I think the points brought up about scale is right on. I don't know what's the time duration for the Front games, but the Civil War ones are 20 minutes per turn during the day. I just don't see using the CM game engine to plan moves for the next 20 minutes (or longer for operational scenarios) and then hit go. The only way I can conceive this happening in an immersive 3D world is that the units are abstracted to companies or regiments, as oppose to individuals.

I'm just wondering something. The wargame experience of some of us here is solely hex-based (eg, West Front, East Front, etc.), as oppose to C&C, Panzer General, etc. For those that have played on hexes and now play CM, will you go back?

Which brings up a dumb question. Why would anyone pre-order anything? I ordered CM on 6/21 and received it on 6/25. At best, a pre-order would you get the game a couple of days before us regular folks. Big whoop.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soliloquy: My bad. A quick web search indicated that the number (~600,000) was good, but it does indeed represent the death toll total for the war. Roughly 350,000 Union and 250,000 Confederate. And so the 2% figure is accurate as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Off the top of my head, those figures are somewhat correct. The total white population breaks down as follows (in millions): Union: 18.8 Border: 2.5 Confederacy: 5.4 Total: 26.7 Thus 600,000 casualties represent 2.2% of the white population.

Mannheim: You work in GIS too? I've been in GIS since the dark ages (1980-81). What do you do?

Just a long-winded anecdote. I ordered CM last week, received it on Tuesday and loaded it up last night just to see if it'll work properly on my PC (it does with the exception of some cursor problems at the beginning). However, unlike EVERY SINGLE PERSON in this forum, I won't play the game until late this summer at the earliest. The reason is not so much that I have other games in the queue but I just don't know enough about WW2 to play. I have always taken a very methodical approach to playing games (reading the manual, go into the forums, and researching any background information). This is especially true in playing historically-based wargames where I want to understand the strategies and tactics of the battles before I play. I have spent 20 years studying the American Civil War (and the Rev. War to some extent) but very little time on WW2. So, before I play CM, I got to read up on WW2, focusing on the battles that are beyond Overlord. You might be saying (if you bothered to read this far), just play the d*** game to learn. That's hard for me to do since I don't even know the different types of tanks that are used in WW2, let alone the types and ratings of all of the many specialized units and weapons. Gotta learn about them before I can play EFFECTIVELY. Just some thoughts before a 4-day weekend. Steve

Edited: Cursor, not mouse. I suspect this has been discussed before but I'm too lazy to search for the answer. In the initial startup screen that you select your display setting, the cursor is barely there. Past experience suggests that it is using hardware cursor settings instead of software (or vice-versa). What is the way to change this setting? BTW, I have a 233MMX CPU, 96mb RAM, Voodoo3 with DirectX 7.0 [This message has been edited by Steve Clark (edited 06-30-2000).]

I think all we would get with a big name publisher is 1) a nice looking box and 2) a more agressive release schedule.

I had forgotten about this discussion. Wendellm, yes, that is exactly where the figure came from (I had forgotten where). I had not followed up on the criticisms, so it wouldn't surprise me that it is only a partial sales figure. As far as the sales of CM, it doesn't surprise that it is selling (and selling out!). From my perception, CM is the combination of the immensely popular Rainbow 6 with the tactical skills of wargames. I suspect, though, that CM still appeals to a limited market because 1) you really have to understand and like WW2 tactics and combat, and 2) you have to think like a grognard instead of a reflect-based aim and shoot warrior.

It's hard to know if this business model will be a success. Wargames only sell into the low 1000s. For example, TAOW 'only' sold about 1400 copies last year (if my source was correct). Wargames are definitely a niche (re: limited) market, which is why HPS and BTS chose to go the route they have taken. They will get very dedicated and loyal gamers but must keep costs low to be profitable in the long term.

I was a bachelor until I was 36 (am 40 now) and when I wasn't traveling and doing outdoors stuff, I was playing games for hours. Since getting married, my wonderful wife and I have reached an understanding. I have my own office full of books and computer games, and I play every night from the time our little boy goes to bed until 9 or 10. Then it's our time together. It works out because by 9 or 10, I am too tired to play anymore. That is alot less game time than before, but the joys of being a husband and a father is better. [This message has been edited by Steve Clark (edited 06-23-2000).]

Civilization II Pharaoh Jack Nicklaus 6 Civilization II Conquest of the New World Outlaws Talonsoft Civil War games oh, did I mention Civilization II?

You have to remember that we all play computer games for different reasons. Some want a 'realistic' experience, some want to emphasis just the strategic part, while other just wants to kill time. Now matter how one plays, it must be fun and if playing with or without FOW is fun, that's ok, IMHO. For me, when I will start to play CM, I will have no FOW because it will take awhile for me to learn the game and to learn about WW2 tactics. However, I do agree that when playing PBEM, it must be fair.

You know, in every single strategy/wargame forum, there are always debates about realism. There are those that expect all games to be realistic, not only in the way it looks, but in the way the human and AI plays. Case in point, the discussions in the Civilization III forum (right now in the design phases), some folks EXPECT the AI to think like a human. Sheesh. As a someone who has been involved in game design and AI development, there are always certain levels of abstrations that MUST be made. Alot has to do with the limitations of programming and computer processes. Right now, one can program the AI to be an expert player within a LIMITED field (like a chess board). But throw in a large, complex world (like in most games including CM), shortcuts have to be made. As far as graphics, the FPS 3D demands of 16- or 24-bit colors at 1024x768 are still very high and if you want to market a game to a majority of wargamers, you must compromise on graphics quality.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sergei: Why people play wargames? -tactical and strategic games cultivate brains and improve logical thinking <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think that's a great answer, at least from my point of view. Even though I am not well versed on WW2, my 20 year study of the Civil War, including its strategies and tactics, leads me to understand how millions of men can be made to do something that is foreign for many of us, esp. those that are not in the military. It is fascinating to analyze how millions of men can be organized (for the most part) to act like units in a game. Wargames just duplicate, to some extent, those strategies and tactics without the horrors. Good question.

Just checking back before I leave work. Maximus, thank you, you didn't have to yell for me though.

Actually as a newcomer jumping into the flames (so to speak), threads like this is not a turn off. I've been in the software industry for many years, even ran a computer game company for a couple of years. With so many complexities in developing and distributing software products, a lot can go wrong. When you have more things go right than wrong, that is a very, very good thing.

Naaah. Just a historian (Civil War and Revolutionary War primarily), software manager and long, long time computer gamer living in Colorado. Talking about addictive, nothing can come close to Civilization II which I have been playing every month for a long time now. [This message has been edited by Steve Clark (edited 06-21-2000).]