:USERNAME:

Heres the data from the panzer IV website. I believe that Rex claims that the website showed that there is two HE velocitys shown there. I could not find that but found the following interesting information: Muzzle Velocity (m./sec.) L/24 w/ Pzgr. (Kw. K. 38) {APC?} 385 L/24 w/ Sprgr. Kw. K. (34) {HE} 420 L/43 w/ Pzgr. 39 Kw. K. 40 {APCBC} 740 L/43 w/ Pzgr. 40 {AP40} 930 L/43 w/ Sprgr. Patr. Kw. K. (34) {HE} 550 L/48 w/ Pzgr. 39 Kw. K. 40 {APCBC} 750 L/48 w/ Pzgr. 40 {AP40} 930 L/48 w/ Sprgr. Kw. K. (34) {HE} 550 I added the {info} for clarification. Maybe Rex is confused or I missed something. But I could not find two HE velocitys for the 75L24 guns HE shells (or other 75mm class of weapons). I hope BTS is as interested in this as I am. The KWK (34) is the designation for the heavy payload HE shell. I hope others here can post some more info about it. Lewis

I corrected it to 6.80 before you posted the above info. I believe the L24, L48, L43 and L70 all fired AP rounds weighing 6.8 Kg. I would suspect they were all the same but who knows. There seems to be two HE rounds. Rex is stating that one fires at 385 m/s and the other at 440 m/s for the L24? One must be heavier than the other and have a correspondingly higher payload. Anyway, since the AP is 385 m/s I assumed that if the HE also weighed the same then it would have the same velocity as the AP. This does not really have to be true. So whats the HE shells weights? I think that the website I posted showed the payloads for the two different types of HE shells but not the weights. Whats the velocities? If you have the rifling info on the L48 and L70 guns I would appreciate it. I still say rex is wrong on the 1 meter thing. Lewis

I see in Panzertruppen2 that the AP was fired at 385 m/sec. The HEAT was fired at 450 M/sec. What source claims that there was different HE velocitys (actually meaning different shells I suppose)? I see that there was different HE so this is possible. The AP (that fired at 385 M/s) was 6.80 Kg in shell weight. I imagine the HE would weigh the same. Can you also send Steve information on the US 75mm HE content? I would like to address the uber-sherman weapon also. Is it possible the germans had as good if not better HE? What about their fuzes? Were they better also? Finally, How is it that all these weapon comparisons are using the magic 1 meter differential? And could you give a definition in technical terms what you think it is and what phenomena is causing it? Thanks Lewis [This message has been edited by :USERNAME: (edited 01-24-2001).]

He wrote: "As I understood it the 75L24 was developed from the 75mm IG which is known for its accuracy." I took his saying "the" to mean the common weapon: As 7.5cm Leichte Infanterie Geschutz 18: Barrel length: 35.43 inches Breech mechanism: Shotgun, percussion firing Projectile & Weight: HE, 13.2lbs Propelling charge: Five-part; brass-coated steel case Muzzle velocity: 690 ft per second Not the: 7.5cm Infanterie Geschutz 37: Barrel length: 70.75in with muzzle brake Breech mechanism: Vertical sliding block, semi automatic, percussion Projectile & Weight: HE 13.2lbs Propelling charge: Six part charge, separate loading, brass case Muzzle Velocity: 918 ft per second Notice the supposedly more accurate weapon has more velocity. Why would that be? In any case, I think that all weapons that are mounted in panzerkampfwagon are KWK (kampfwagonkanone) not PAK which are antitank guns.

Well ASL gets a quirky idea in his head and cant let it go. Whatever. Glad you can amuse yourself. I am pretty sure what a comparison is. The author did not make a comparison. He was just stating that the early stugL24 was very similar to the KWK L24. The point (the part that I was drawing attention to) is that it was a relatively low angle weapon. Its velocity is actually pretty close to the L48 now that you have drawn attention to that fact. Is that the theme for this thread? People getting things wrong and persisting on them? What about the guy that was claiming that the L24 was derived from the infantry guns? Why isnt he persisting endlessly? Has he no endurance or just realized that it wasnt true? Since this vertigo dithering effect is part of our wargaming vernacular; can someone PLEASE define what it is supposed to be? Is it a height differential in a shells flight? Something that can be related to angular error? Is it magically 1 meter for all german weapons somehow? Boy this is good stuff.

I believe the panther gun HE velocity is a little high (maybe 750 m/s). But its somewhat Ok math. I like that you used an angular error and figured its effects. Vertical scatter or whatever he is calling it is undefined and a little off base. Lewis

I have no clue as to what you think you are talking about. I am posting this with the full knowledge that the author (its an OK book BTW) IS refering to the PIV with the L24. He is refering to the L24 stug also. He is describing the L24 weapons performance. The book is about Stugs? Anyone home? The REASON I posted it is because he references the low angle of fire a weapon of this velocity would have. What you think I posted it for is the mystery. So do you get it? I am sorry but I cant draw pictures here. Count me amongst the people who think you need to improve your reading comprehension skills.

I cant believe it. Rex you are a classic. Good luck with you-alls article. Heres a nice paragraph from The German Sturmgeschutze in WWII: "The barrel of the 7.5cm assault cannon (StuG7.5cm-K) was 1307.5 mm long (=L24); the entire weapon weighed490 Kg, had a traverse of 24 degrees and a elevation field between minus 10 and and plus twenty degrees. At first the Panoramic Telescope 32 for StuG (4 x 10 degrees) was used as an aiming device. The gun fired ammunition that had been introduced for the almost identical Panzer IV. This was primarily the 7.5 cm shell which carried a 5.74 Kg charge up to 1000 meters at a very low height, and at an elevation of 20 degrees reached targets at a distance of 6200 meters (flight time 23.5 seconds)." So Rex just ignore my points and go on "correcting" people. The fact is you continuely hammer in this point about curvy trajectorys and wont define what that is. Can you give us an angle? No. Do you know how to use the physical equations to figure that out from velocitys? I would guess not. So good luck. Lewis

I have to be frank here. I cant follow your thoughts rexford (dont feel bad..I have no clue what bastables is posting about either). What are you saying? You read an article 10 years ago and thats your source? Please try this: 1. Compare the HE velocities of the german 75mmL24, 75mmL48 and US 75mm. Do you really think they are that different? What, if you would like to guess, is the descent angle at 800 meters for these weapons? Do you think they vary by 10 degrees? 20 degrees? 2. How is infantry a point target? I was in the military and it was common to have a 5 meter interval between men. A 10 man squad is actually a big target. I will continue to post references that support my contention that the germans manufactured a common type of 75mm HE shell for the KWK type weapons. From a logistics standpoint it makes alot of sense. I also believe that these weapons used the delay (that was a variable setting) to attack targets like troops in the open with ricochet fire. do a search here and you will find alot of this is covered. Lewis

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rexford: 75L24 carried a heavier load of explosive than U.S. 75mm HE fired by Sherman. 1.91# explosive for 75L24 HE, 1.47# for U.S. 75mm HE. 75L24 HE carries about 30% more explosive by weight. 75L24 carried more explosive than 75L70, 0.85 kg vs. 0.65 kg, so lower muzzle velocity 75L24 HE carries 30% more explosive than Panther HE. A fellow named Dietz ran a series of articles on German ammo, and guess what, 75L48 HE has different amount of explosive compared to 75L70 and 75L24 HE. German 75mm HE did not all carry the same load. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/willphelps/Specs-03.htm I would ask that you check out the above website. 7.5 cm. Ammunition Type Bursting Charge Charge Weight Booster Fuze Color Notes Sprgr. 34 HE 60/40 Amatol 0.454 kg. Zdlg. Np. 10 Kl. Az. 23umg olive green - Sprgr. Kw. K. (34) HE 60/40 Amatol 0.853 kg. Zdlg. C/98 Kl. Az. 23 olive green - This is data taken from the website. It states that the 75L24, 75L48 and the 75L43 all fired the Sprgr. Kw. K. (34). You are funny in that you prove that even the uber-sherman 75mm had the same HE as a panther. When is that long lived fallacy going to be addressed? I would ask that you also site references. I also cant help but notice that you ignore the fact that the 75mmL24 was not that low a velocity when compared to a german 75mmL48. You really have it in your mind that the angular difference is that different? Lewis [This message has been edited by :USERNAME: (edited 01-22-2001).]

The thread is supposed to be about tank gun accuracy vs other vehicles. I think that rexford is not only off topic but wrong. He claims to have data but insists I need to make a paradigm shift to his thinking and just accept his gospel. I disagree and have a very good case with the german 75mm weapons. Infantry in the open are not point targets. At the range we are discussing, 700-800 meters, they are not point targets for MGs either. I would not equate infantry standing to infantry in slit trenches BTW. Lets see if rexford comes through. Specifically, whats the difference in angle between a 75mmL24 and 75mml48 and a 75mmL70 9all with HE) at 800 meters? Does it look remotely like the angle posted by Jeff? Do you have evidence that the german 75mm KWK weapons fired different HE shells? Why would the germans have a higher muzzle velocity for the L24 HE than the AP? Seems to contradict your point. I can live with the typical reactions to my posts. Everyone knows that the real issue here is that the armies developed delayed action fuses to take advantage of the steep impact angles that we are discussing here. Thats right, I am talking skipping HE shells for this situation. An airburst with a 75mm HE, even if twice the distance than a ground burst, is much more desirable.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rexford: At 800m, German data predicts that 50% of 75mm L48 HE will fall within a 61m long distance when range estimation against a ground target is exact. (50% will be more than 30m away from target ground point). This is at 550 m/s muzzle velocity. B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now compare that to the velocity of the 75mmL24. I believe its 440M/s for the HE round. Do you really think the angles are that different at 800 meters? Will you continue to post more apples and oranges data? I reiterate. Your point is moot. 75mm armed tanks/assault guns arent meant to shoot at these "plastic soldier" target scenarios that manifest your mind. The soldiers would get to cover or just get lost. Why not titilate us all with scenarios where the lay of the land falls off at exactly the same as the shell drops from guns? Certain terrain would be velocity hostile? Maybe avoiding parabolic valleys is a good tactic? Did you know that shooting exactly at a monkey as it leaps off a cliff guarantees a hit? Fascinating but true! By the way. I like the way you avoid answering questions. Its very reminiscent of Steve from BTS. Lewis

I am going to do an experiment. I am going to shoot at paper vertical targets with a high velocity rifle and then I am going to turn the paper targets 90 degrees so they are flat and try to slice them with the same rifle. then I am going to chuck rocks skyward and when one comes crashing through the paper, I will prove rex right. Then I will prove that 88L56 Tiger I tank guns arent good anti-aircraft weapons. lewis PS Jeffs post shows such an exaggerated angle. The angle difference is minimal between 75mmL70 and 75mmL24 at 750 meters. You seem to be focusing on what you call scatter. Its really the angular error from a weapons line of fire. You just like to disregard the short barreled weapons angle error? Which is more susceptible to this angle error? A long barrel or a short? [This message has been edited by :USERNAME: (edited 01-21-2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rexford: Please also note that the preceding post did not mention that low speed HE rounds generally pack alot more TNT than higher velocity HE (U.S. 76mm HE vs 75mm HE), so lower velocity is not only more accurate but generates more casualties. Hitting ground points with HE seems to favor close support guns like 75L24, hitting vertical targets may favor 75L70 HE. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> More clutter from Rex. German 75mm tank weapons all fired the same HE with different cartridges crimped on them. look it up. In fact; do a search here. Nice try though. I admire knee jerk arguments. I think you mentioned a range of 750 meters in your post. Do you really think the shallow angles that a 75mmL24 and a 75mmL70 would have at that range, are that different that your argument is valid? That it could possibly out weigh having a high velocity weapon? Why not mount mortars in tanks?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Lakowski: As I understood it the 75L24 was developed from the 75mm IG which is known for its accuracy. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I never knew that

By all means elaborate on this. I’ve read through this thread from start to finish, and I did not come away with the impression that this fellow Rexferd ignores any of your points. Do you have an alternative mathematical approach to explain your arguments? [This message has been edited by Matthew_Ridgeway (edited 01-20-2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rexford: One of the odd things about accuracy is that flat trajectory guns are very good at hitting vertical targets but stink when it comes to landing HE near a specific horizontal ground point. German ballistic data shows vertical dispersion greatly effects the ground fall of high speed HE rounds, and has less effect on low speed HE. So if one wants to land an HE round within 20' of enemy infantry, use 75L24. If you want to hit a 4' high target at 800m on the fly, use 75L70. Short guns with low velocities can have superior accuracy against ground point targets. This may be what was meant in the reference to 75L24 accuracy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This sounds like something you are stating from fact but are really surmising. I completely disagree. You disregard many factors in this statement. Not the least is flight time (the high velocity weapon gets there quicker), flight path (the longer parabola is under the effects of crosswinds/gusts at different heights), target reaction (maybe the people on the recieving end might not like being shot at and decide to move). You never mention range. A high velocity gun is more accurate and therefore an initial miss can be corrected and subsequent shots brought onto the target. Any completely "horizontal" target like infantry dug into a trench is difficult for all weapons to attack. Your point is moot and speculative. Unless, of course, you use an airburst or ricochet fire. Lewis

http://www.warlinks.com/equipment/tank_research/section_c.html

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IntelWeenie: One could consider the modern ATGM to have evolved from RRs. The warheads are launched using similar principles, with the big difference being guidance systems and sustainer motors in ATGMs. Still, RRs were a major breakthrough for infantry AT weapons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How a rocket propelled guided missile evolved from a rifled cased-propellant free-flight gun is one of the mysterys of all time. Panzerfausts are kind of recoiless non-rifled disposable weapon systems. But panzerfausts are not descendants of flare guns. Mortars are also not derived from submarines or landmines. They are not related to starfish either and have no likeness to battleships. Lewis PS They are mostly dropped from major armies that might concievably fight a real war.

http://www.warlinks.com/equipment/tank_research/section_c.html

Vehicles should have gradients for this protective posture. It should be: 1. Vehicle down 2. Commander up (or turret down) 3. Hull down (no bow mgs) 4. Track down (bow mgs up) 5. None In my opinion a vehicle like the Panzer IV in a true HD situation is short changed. This tank (which until recently was over sized) has a very small turret in comparision to other vehicles. It should be reduced to about 1/3 its size in a hull down position. CM makes it difficult to command your units into HD and somewhat under models its effects if your units get this status. I havent played that much 1.1 but is the reciprocacy of HD still prevalent? I noticed that every time I was HD so was the target? Lewis

The recoil effect was counter acted by allowing the vast majority of blast to go out the back of the weapon. Actually they are called recoiless rifles. Implying that they had rifling and shell spin. In shoulder fired versions, the firer would still feel the counter torque of the shell engaging the rifling in the gun. It would jerk on his shoulder and many firers felt the name "recoiless" was a misnomer. They were loud, heavy, and have mostly faded away except for some specialized units. I always liked the 106 mm US weapon mounted on a mechanical mule myself. Lewis

While people focus on the exploits and daring of this one man on that day, most people dont realize the absolute cowardice and incompetance of the British high command. Whittman's blunting of the tactical advantage of the british forces that day was indeed stuff of legend, but the fact is that IF the british commanders had utilized their overwhelming superiority in numbers and material, they would have quickly gone on beyond villers and put a hurt on the germans. I like to punch people in the nose. Really. Nothing stuns an attacker and gives him cause to pause and reconsider. Just the smack of a flat punch to a loudmouth's snotlocker is good stuff. They either back the eff off or over commit and come swinging stupidly and then they get an ass kicking. Whittman punched the limeys right in the honker. He should have just stood his ground and wait for developments and then he might have had his tank survive. But he gave up his advantage and probably got caught up in the heat of the battle. He broke away from the main force. He made a mistake. The brits made a bigger one. Lewis

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon: Patton issued something like 8 orders, one very terse, forbiding US tankers from carrying HVAP (he wanted to make sure most of it went to the M18 units) (Patton in the Lorraine Valley: A Case Study). If Pattons continual issuing of orders is to be believed, no M4s in the 3rd Army ever used them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The more I hear about Patton the more I wonder. Supposedly he was instrumentel in the delay of the M26 and now he is castrating armor units. Then you hear quotes like "Never tell a man how to get somewhere, just where he needs to be" but then he dictates what socks he has to wear.. Lewis

I believe the germans hung tracks on the side of the panthers turrets and that this would help. The panther tracks are pretty thick and would add some amount of protection. It must have become SOP at some point. The sov tanks could have more side armor because of the lighter engines used in their tanks.