:USERNAME:

Just some more info on Panther HE: Panzertruppen 2 pg 130 The great range of the gun must be exploited under all circumstances. Fire can be opened at a range of 2000 meters. Almost all the targets destroyed (heavy weapons and tanks) were engaged at a range of 1500-200 meters. Ammunition expenditure was very low. Every fourth or fifth round was a hit, even with high explosive rounds . This is a followup paragraph where the author states the panther battalion had destroyed 89 vehicles and 150 guns. A gun is certainly a much smaller area target than an infantry unit spread that is spread out. In fact, for a dug in AT gun it is actually smaller than a tank. This data certainly backs up the french report. From my research, I have read that HE rounds explosive fillings actually undergo a shear type of stress during the firing process. When a round is fired from a rifled weapon, there is a tremendous translational as well as rotaional acceleration. According to the book I was reading, rotational velocitys of 30000 RPM is typical (yeah thirty thou). This would imply that balancing is critical to a shell. I highly doubt that any nation during wartime would have the equipment or time to spin balace their HE shells (like your tires on your car). What I am putting forth here is that a HE shell with less HE filling would more than likely be better balanced just by its nature. the outer mass from the center would be made up of more homogenous rigid steel and the "moving" center HE content would have much less effect. Also the jump of a gun could be related to this. As I have posted before, APDS are very dependant on balance and sabots having the same weight. If not, they impart a small motion to the barrel as they travel up the tube and corkscrew. This slight motion will throw the aim of the weapon off and the sabot is less accurate. A homogenous AP round has less of this effect if center gound about its axis! if anyone is following this thread; take a look at the british armor thread also. There is a little discussion about the 75mmL24. I have the data on the 75mmL24 rifling and would welcome anyone else posting rifling data here. I am going to figure out the rotational velocity for the 75mmL24. Lewis

I believe the warhead was improved so that better penetration was achieved with about the same charge. But the range was increased with additional propulsion. It therefore had greater velocity then with each additional model. Jeff is correct in that a tank at these ranges becomes a vertical "area target". This effect will decrease with range but Belton fired one against a King Tiger Frontal turret area at 30 meters (100 meter version) and hit within inches of his aim point. Then again, the tank had burnt out already and wasnt moving. Another anomaly is that a tank moving right at you at these short ranges has an opposite effect than it would on an antitank gunner. To an antitank gunner, the motion hardly matters but to a LATW operator the motion has such a profound effect (actually the fear of being squashed) that firing trials have proved that hits are more frequent against laterally moving targets. Lewis

Glad to hear that there are going to be tank hunter teams. As far as the HQs I think you are missing a point. Theres a tradeoff between reality and abstraction. If you exclude the possibility of a HQ having this weapon then you introduce a gamey opportunity from knowing the infantry unit you are facing is a HQ unit. Since the sharing of knowledge is an abstraction (Omni-LOS and enemy unit intel)that has a profound effect on knowing more than you could possibly gather inside a tank, then having HQ's having one panzerfaust isnt that far fetched. It counter weights the global knowledge base. It is a good counter-abstraction in my opinion. If nothing else, another good abstraction is to have the infantry units that have these weapons be more inclined to fire if a HQ is within proximity. The accuracy and/or range could be slightly extended also to account for a quick burst of foot power/judicious crawling to a better/safer firing position. Enemy infantry intel in general should be toned down. Type, numbers, morale, etc are just beyond knowing. There should also be somewhat of cloaking, meaning that HQ units are not identified so easily in the presence of other units. I target them exclusively and gamily wipe them out. So my point is that abstractions can be OK as long as they dont invite gamey ploys and that counter-abstractions should be viewed as such. Its a function of the game designer to decide what plays out best. Lewis

Panzertruppen 2 gives a couple of usage stats on a unit basis. Of interest is the vehicle types (still using pIII up till early 1944) and the amount of armor and other equipment claimed destroyed. This is on page 129 by the way.

Another part of this issue is that HQ units dont have them. Thats not only bad from a realistic point of view but a gamey opportunity. Example: I see that the two units in front of me are a platoon and a company HQ, ergo, no AT defense and I can concentrate on a infantry squad instead. I would suspect that platoon and company HQs especially would have these (more so than the squads since they are responsible) and that Bn HQ units should represent the Tank Killer squad that infantry Bn would form. Ive read on many occasions that Bn HQs had a dedicated tank killer squad. Panzerfaust, mines, bundles, cocktails, etc. Perhaps the men in this squad were picked from guys that had earned a tank destruction badge already. Hopefully a CM2 design parameter. Lewis

Maybe they have an issue with someone that posts stalking threats. If anyone cares, search under "This is for Lewis".

Bumping this to see if BTS has any reply. Does BTS or anyone have another source for 75mmL70 shells HE content? What does BTS think of some of the WilPhelps penetration values?

I would love for the New York Giants to get on the ice with your chicken wings (in football equipment) and beat the menses out of them. The chwings could use their sticks just cause I am fair. Alot of people hate Americans (real United States Americans like me) and alot of people hate New Yorkers (real ones like me) but as the song says: "God shed his grace on thee" Thats the US that God shed his grace on. Not India or Madagascar or Borneo or Canada. USA. Say it with me.. USA #1! God knew.. Enjoy the game Lewis

Did you see the new video thechnique they are using? It looks just like CMs camera angles! BTS should sue.

The German Sturmgeshuetze in WWII pg 31. Its that hard for you to conceptualize things from numbers? Lewis

Giants 16 Raves 13 You heard it here first. Go Jints! "I predict that 99% of the world does not give a ****. " Luckily they dont matter either.. [This message has been edited by :USERNAME: (edited 01-28-2001).]

I pity your spelling PetterZNer. In the dictionary theres pitter-patter. Like the pitter-patter of my 37mm halftrack knocking out your poor quality M18 armor. Pity you broke cover with those TWO vehicles and decided to parade them in front of my unarmored ambushing flak-track. you threw away the game at that moment. Any fool would have had one break cover while the other overwatched. Your lack of tactics is only matched by your lack of tact. I guess the desire to parade around is distilled in you now as an honorary limey. On a serious note, Belton has something to say about US cast armor. He claims it never stopped anything on its way through. Lewis [This message has been edited by :USERNAME: (edited 01-28-2001).]

1.33Kg vs 82 or 83 gm? Thats small? Considering the reduced density of explosive compared to metal, that makes a big difference. In the cross sectional drawing, this is obvious. The charge takes up space well up into the shell. It really seems to be some sort of concrete buster shell. Really a hardened HE, almost, with a cap on it. And for those people that think this is anal. You are correct, it is. In that, we want things modeled correctly. If its too much then go play panzer general. Lewis PS Even the K. Gr. rot Pz. APC TNT 114 gm Had a 50 percent larger charge [This message has been edited by :USERNAME: (edited 01-28-2001).]

I fouled it! I rubbed my essence of horrid self-absorbtion and self-amusement there!!! Wiped it on there good too. I feel so..I dunno..me. Lewis

The german 75mm L/SD/24 never fired psychotropically afrika corp'd penetraiters. That is a clear fallacy as well as a point of obturation to people with turrets syndrome. On the other hand the PanzerComaPatrone (PCP) effectively ended the Panzer peace movement by unleashing hoardes of glazed eyed demons upon the eastern borders.. uh..wait a second.. Where am I? How did I ever end up in such a dull, played out thread like this?.. Oh yeah, The drugs. Well. Makes sense now. lewis

I liked the part in the movie where the german tank commander (maybe one of the singers) goes "ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!" when Henry Fonda rolls a flaming 55 gallon drum of flaming gasoline his way. I begged my parents to let me, and my brothers and sister, go see that freaking movie in the cafeteria of my catholic gradeschool on a saturday. After hours they relented and even sent us out the door with large chocolate bars and even bagged popcorn. Anyway, the movie wasnt shown that weekend but rather the next. We sat there for hours debating whether to go home, eat the f**king candy or what the hell to do. I remember the letdown like it was today. Imagine my horror when I was older and actually saw the stupid movie. It even has a disclaimer at the beggining that it isnt realistic! What the hell is that anyway? man I wish I had some chocolate. Lewis [This message has been edited by :USERNAME: (edited 01-28-2001).]

No. He , they, all them we's, have tested all plates and he has them in his shed. He has never made a mistake ever. Never ever. Certainly not in the "accuracy" thread (Is the irony lost on anyone that read that thread? Its an accuracy thread and the shed-archives commandant made on average one boner mistake per page of that thread? Eh. maybe its just me..) Ever heard of dyslexia? rexforia? lewisite? I am going to bed. Lewis

http://library.atlantic.edu/amatol/p-061%20The%20Plant.html Found this while researching Amotal. Seems its town in Joisey. Go figger, huh. Theres a whole book, online, about a town in joisey, which exit? Lewis

READ CLOSELY THE WEBSITE!!! It claims that the 75mmL24 fired K Gr rot Pz (was APC) and Pzgr. (Kw. K. 38). This is NOT Pzgr 39!! My cutaway drawings show that this "38" round appears to have a large HE cavity in it and the websites data backs this up. Sorry. I take my german ammunition a bit serious. Pzgr. (Kw. K. 38) ? TNT 1.33 kg. 90% PETN Bd. Z. F. 7.5 cm. Pz. gr. black - Pzgr. 39 FES APCBC RDX 83 gm. 90% PETN Bd. Z. 5103 black w/red marking - Pzgr. 39 Kw. K. 40 APCBC Cyclonite 82 gm. 90% PETN Bd. Z. 5103 black w/red band/marking Lewis [This message has been edited by :USERNAME: (edited 01-28-2001).] [This message has been edited by :USERNAME: (edited 01-28-2001).]

PanzerClamWagon Cracked open real good.

I hate to get involved in another case from the reXford files (the truth is out there.. in my shed.. get in now scully!..) but... I dont believe the AP round for the 75mmL24 is the same as the 75mmL46, L48, L43 and L70. I am not putting you on. Look at the data closely: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/willphelps/Specs-03.htm I believe that the HE is the same at least for the 75mm L24, 75mm L43/48 and perhaps the panther (not covered here anyway) but there might be a difference in AP. I have drawings of them and there does appear to be some difference. Dont mention it.. Lewis

I also like the idea of buying from a platoon type: 1. Pick platoon type 2. Costs are dependant on that type 3. limits depend on that type Example: Pick US TD platoon type purchase M10s, M8 and jeeps only Normal limit is 4 M10s (maybe limited to 3 in depleted situations), 2 M8s and 2 jeeps. Jeep morale is based on this type. Since his function is really light scout. Jeeps here are cheap and they have low morale. Remember, not filling out the platoon will effect the morale. So buying just 1 M10, 1 M8 and two jeeps means very timid troops. Also, not buying at least one jeep means longer command delays. Another example: US armored Cav platoon purchase M8s, M5, Halftrack,jeeps, etc Jeeps here are higher cost and higher morale. They are meant for agressive recon. Likewise the M8s are crewed by looters and drinkers that like to be the first in a town. maybe a rapist. who knows? another: Transport platoon trucks, trucks, trucks, 3/4 trucks and cheap jeeps (maybe a weasel). These jeepsters will abandon at site of volksgrenadiers. Also, the VictoryPoints you get will depend on the cost you paid. So running some pissy pants from the redball express with a truck full of frozen chicken parts onto the VP location in the last 15 seconds dont get you nothing. When your point total is less than 10 percent of your start total, then you must pick from the HQ grab bag. This fictional allotment is generated by the game. Alot of losers hang around HQ so make your 90 percent effective. This might actually kick in at a variable point, lets say, 15 percent if you have too many half manned platoons. Also whats left depends on what you picked. Dont expect too many King Tigers from the HQ roundup if you have spent large on heavy tanks already. Maybe one of those french tanks with a russian ATG bolted on top. I dunno. Lewis

You have alot of nerve agreeing with me.. Thats the way I am going to do it in my game. Along with a cap too. So you buy one platoon of Tiger Is and it costs not so much, the second and third hurt your pocket book (but I throw in a 2 tank HQ unit cause Im nice) and then a fourth platoon caps you out (and costs alot because of fuel/ammo overhead) because of the size of the scenario (maybe modeling a SS panzer Division with an integral Tiger Company).

They work well with panthers and Tigers. That may seem obvious but the heavy tanks become force multipliers in that they can flush out the oposition and the PIVs can then use discretion and concentration of force. I wonder if the mantlet of the tank is not madeled in the game correctly. It seems curved in photos and overlapping some metal. Similar to the Tiger I front turret controversey. I have seen photos of the PIV front turret up-armored by tacking on tracks to the front plates. Some tracks even look like they have cutouts in them for the sights/mg and I have seen T34 tracks on there also. the germans had a curved spaced turret armor addition on the front of teh Panzer III L/M series and why didnt they have this on the Panzer IV? The PIV and StuGs alomost had an SOP on hanging tracks about the hull in 1944. If nothing else, these tracks were hardened steel, unlike the rubbery shermans, and would upset the caps on the AP shell of most antitank fire. This would work well with the face hardened spaced hull front armor. Personally I think the MKIv should have been converted to JPnz production by mid 1944. Either that or a turret design overhaul. It would be nice to have a shoot'n'scoot command for vehicles like these or have the TACAI use alot of discretion when facing enemy tanks. This way if you positioned your tanks so that they could retreat, they would.