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BTW There was also the belly bombing AT-round-skip-tactic. (am I pushing my luck here or what?) US tanks were said to bounce AP off roads/hard surfaces to attack the undersides of tanks that were level. I know of one instance where an indirect artillery weapon managed this on a Panzer. Lewis

Everyone knows the russian dogs 'n potato peelers were only used against the japanese and were a failure due to the koreans eating them! The highly effecient frozen cow 'n sinks were a dual purpose weapon. After the attack fresh dethawed cow chunks were waiting for the cooks in reusable armored sinks! Stop enemy fire AND help feed the troops! True german effeciency.. Lewis

Woh seems like steve cant take a joke! Lighten up there Big Time Software guy. I am not the only one having a little Parody fun. Lewis BTW It was a common tactic to layer kitchen sinks to the outside of frozen Normandy cattle and send them into MG42 positions. [This message has been edited by Username (edited 05-08-2000).]

I dont consider a "flame" war is going on in the "75mm fuse" thread except for the MG sidetracking BFG did. Lets see what Fionn comes up with. Lewis

lucero 1. YES it has been shown that chickens existed 2. YES it is true they were fired in the frozen state SOMETIMES. But what really interests me is can you absolutely PROVE to ME that they were ever fired often in a DELAYED DEFROSTED DETONATION??? As previous threads have proven, the use of non-regulation pidgeons or rarely seen geese just doesnt warrant a major 'fowling' of BTS's 'game' engine.... (snicker) Lewis PS I will wait to hear from my chicken-hawk guy Fionn.. [This message has been edited by Username (edited 05-08-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Lewis, You have satisfied only the first two componants of research: 1. That it existed. 2. That it was used. But the THRID, and in our opinion the most critical, is HOW MUCH was it used. That is what I meant by conjecture. The fourth point is "did it have a significant effect, enough to warrent simulation". I suspect that if #3 can be proved, #4 would be a "yes". Then we get into the technical questions of how to simulate the thing. At this point a few quotes, no matter how good, aren't enough to cause us to think we need to make a fundamental change to the game system. And you should be THANKFUL that is the case. If we bent to any wisp of wind that blew our way CM would be unfocused and probably unrepresentional of typical combat in the theater/time we are simulating. Games that have gone this route have generally fallen apart as a whole, or were never released because of the lack of focus. And as far as what I agreed to in email, it doesn't really count for much since I was basing it only on what you told me, not independent research. As I said, I am not an ammo guy. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ROTFLMAO!! It just occurred to me that White Phosphorous Rifle Grenades could be skip fired...only kidding. Whats really funny is your defensive 'tude and unreceptive consideration of data. BTS spouts off with this 'we are the revolutionaries' dogma but wants to cling desperately to old tired 'plastic army soldier' notions. YOU should be THANKFUL that diehard posters here share their knowledge. But to get on with the 'Dentistry' going on here, I am going to reiterate that I am proposing these changes for CM2. I firmly believe (conjecture in your negative jargon) that the russian antitank guns were the german armor (read panzer and sturmartillerie units) nightmare when the germans were on the offense. Tanks they could handle, ATGs were a bitch. The use of HE in the direct fire role maximized the quick suppression and destruction of these ATG units. I believe the delayed action fuse helped. So you need to know how MUCH it was used? If I had to guess it would be a function of a units training and experience. In case you are unaware everything is drills in military life (So you will react in the best way to save your life and others). The commander calls out target, gunner calls out ammo type (and perhaps heres where the additional command for delayed fuse setting could be put in), gunner does his shooting thing. So now that the problem has been identified better we can address it. This aint researching the sex lives of dinosaurs fraught with speculations and guesswork now is it? I want a good eastern front game and wonder if CM can pull it off. So anyway I will wait for Fionn to share his 'ammo guy' knowledge before sharing anymore information. Lewis

Just because A sinks had B faucets doesnt mean that C dishwashing can be assumed.

My paraphrase.. Just because something is real is by no means proof that it isnt a hallucination too. uhhh... I kind of get what Rons bent of humor is getting at .. but is OB&G losing anyone with that "heart-ons" remark? Maybe you need to get out of the house more OB&G.. Lewis

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Lewis... sorry, but I really didn't find your quotes to be the Holy Grail you think it is. Look at your own posts and see that there is a lot of your own personal conjecture in there. What more do we need? Info from someone else from some other source. Fionn is working on that now. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well I think I will take your advice and review my posts here since Fionn is busy with BFG. First Post: contains quote from Panzer troops. Second quote from Panzerjaeger troop. Point out my conjecture please. I dont see it. Second Post: contains quote from another reference that sturmartillerie also used a variable reference. Point out my conjecture please. I dont see it. Third Post: affirmative answer to another persons question. Steeped in conjecture. Fouth post: Side tracked by MG34 pissing contest. fifth Post: Lots of conjecture going on here. 1. you have agreed as much in emails Steve. 2. considering I have supplied first hand accounts of the use of the weapon as such..explain how this is conjecture. 3. I can supply data that shows the higher velocity 75mm german guns performed better. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/willphelps/Specs-02.htm 4. I am stating that the evidence seems to support what I am saying and am wondering if other armies had anything like this. More conjecture. sixth/seventh Post: trying my darndest to be absolutely clear so as not to con"fuse" Fionn or Steve. eighth post: Sliding into sarcasm but keeping away from conjecture. (Review over) "Because something exists does not inherently prove anything" That sounds absolutely Goebbbelesque. I wonder if the existance of a default setting for the fuses is known. They came from the factory someway I would presume. But lets not get "conjecturish" again. (Someone should look up the difference between conjecture and deducing or reasoning) Lewis

Lets not get the sturmartillerie debate started again. Does anyone know if there were any Panzer IV aces? I know StuGs, Tigers, Panthers had them. But the Mark IV was really a "light" tank in the second half of 44/early45. It always had a good main weapon in AP and HE performance with the L48 till the heavy soviet armor and US jumbos showed up. I would rather have three JagdPnzIVL70 at that stage then 5 Panzer IV. I would even take 4 JgdPnzIVL48s. Lewis

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV: Your research reveals that later weapon systems tend to outperform earlier weapon systems, and this insight shall guide me in the future. B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ??? StugIII is a later weapon system???? I think the Mark IV should have been discontinued in mid 1944 and production diverted to JgdPnzIV both L48 and L70. In the defensive situation that prevaled after the summer of 1944 they would have been a better investment. As for vehicle height: I am making a point that it is a nonlinear advantage. So a vehicle lets say that is 50 percent greater in height of another vehicle is not 50 percent more likely to get hit. Its much worse (depending on the velocity of the weapon firing at it). Whats nice about a high velocity weapon like the panther L70 is that it is very forgiving to bad estimations at guessing range. Due to its "flat" trajectory. A weapon like the sherman 75mm with bad estimations in range results in alot of the shots going over or striking short. I dont know if BTS just takes the square dimensions of each vehicle or weighs them somehow. Lewis

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV: I like to see the PzKpfwIV get it's due <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It usually got its due when anything bigger than an antitank rifle punched a hole in its weak turret front armor. Give me a stugIII instead or even better a JgdPnzIV. I dont know if the game models vehicle height correctly (its a non linear function..) but the taller you are the more so you are hit (and of course seen). Very few weapon systems can be hit for many times before falling out. The Mark IV was not one of them. In 1942/early 1943 in very experienced hands it was certainly racking up some kills. But when facing more and more mobile 85mm russian weapons and sherman 76mm and 17pdr, it was a has been. Lewis

Panzerjaeger: Tank Hunter (Folkstead) as I quoted above is a first hand account of a german antitank serviceman. I would take a first hand account over anything Fionn or Steve or myself or most anyone here would say or theorize. I have referenced 3 sources that claim it was used. I find your reasoning comical. Imagine german panzer, panzerjaeger, sturmartillerie, PAK units and others using 75mm HE ammunition for YEARS.. I would tend to think that they would get the hang of how to use it best and publish that information for sharing. I cant imagine in even the shortest training on a Panzer IV, Stug, Panther, etc that they wouldnt cover it. These weapons didnt have a plethora of different projectiles and cartridges. They didnt need to figure out how much gunpowder to use or mathematical parabolic equations. The gunners needed to learn to shoot AP and HE. Even in Panzerjaeger the author and his crew recieve a 75mm PAK in the field as a replacement weapon (he was an experienced 37mm crewman)and are given instructions on the capabilities of the HE shells fuse. (Do you imagine conversations like this taking place) "Hmmmm wonder why the end part of the fuze will turn?" "Someone once knew but all people with the knowledge died all at the same time" "Guess we will just fire it and hope for the best" "Lets not read any of these manuals or anything..no time" Clue me in to how much evidence you need. Need the german manuals? Training films? course curriculums? Statements from every living german vet who fired a HE shell? Were the instructions on the side of the shells? Ponderous.. Lewis

Quick Reply... Its my understanding that all the german 75mm HE had this as general issue. Again, not special but the general issue. I dont know where you are going but I am trying to focus on the tank weapons/antitank guns. I am sure most people here are familiar with Flak weapons and field artillery having fuzing options for their missions. Most people including Steve seem unaware that the germans went to the "bother" of doing this for tank/antitank guns. They had their reasons I would suspect. Are you aware of any US army sherman HE shells 75mm/76mm either special or general issue that had this capability? Do you think its worth modeling in the game given the "airburst" characteristics that come about? Lewis

I think that that in the german case it wasnt a special circumstance but a designed in effect. It was a tactic that WAS taught and there was a mechanically variable setting to maximize the effect. Was there any other nation that did this with tank HE? Lewis [This message has been edited by Username (edited 05-06-2000).]

Sorry bout last night. Big beer blowout for Cinco de Mayo. 1. High velocity/low velocity efficiency. As I have contended all along, german 75mm HE projectiles were the same for L24, L43, L48, L70 and even the L46PAK. Only the L43 and L48 had the same AMMO meaning they could fire the same shell/cartridge combination. My point is that there is no wall thickness/HEpayload difference between these weapons. 2. The ability to vary when the fuze detonates the shell after it ricochets off the ground goes against the common notion here of shells burying themselves and smothering the shrapnel effect. 3. When attacking bunkers , buildings, hardened targets, the ability to delay detonation allows the projectile to penetrate before exploding. Higher velocity would allow more penetration. Higher velocity also adds a 1/2mv2 energy component that gives the explosion an extra punch. 4. This seems to be the standard HE projectile for these weapons. Is there anything on the allied side like this? I have heard of US troops using this effect with sherman 75 but its was at very close range and on roads and other hard surfaces. It didnt seem like there was a variable component to it, they were just taking advantage of the inherent time period between the fuze triggering and the detonation occurring. Lewis PS All this is maybe for CM2 possible consideration. But it does seem a very real advantage that I have found at least 3 sources for. At the level of modeling taking place in CM it would have a definite impact. [This message has been edited by Username (edited 05-06-2000).] [This message has been edited by Username (edited 05-06-2000).]

Hey Big effing whatever MG34s are all over the place in CM1. Standard issue in most german vehicles. Fat slobs arent. Lewis

HEY MIND YA P's AND Q'S!!! (thats pints and quarts ya non metric pizzantz) heppy mexikana or whadeveah!! (whads da selebraashion again?) Lewis

yes

HEY LETS ALL CUT THE S#@T!!! LOOK LISTEN.. US units gave surrounded german units one chance at surrender! Any german trying a quick panzerfaust shot and hands up was shot. Snipers were shot. Ive seen footage of them coming at very tired pissed off US units and getting it through the gut! Bradley even said as much. The only chance at surrender is when both sides stopped. Maybe a german teen wasnt killed because of beliefs. Want to hear something REAL and TRUE and NASTY??? (warning..go to your rooms if you cant handle reality) My friends father served in recon under Patton. Hated it all cause he was sent into the unit for punching a butter bar looey. He was in an attack on a village supported by american black tankers. The tanks took losses after the recon had penetrated the village. The tanks pulled back after losing a few tanks. The recon unit was swarmed by german infantry and left everything including leaders, friends, backpacks,etc. When his fathers unit caught up with the tankers there was a no holds fight that resulted in deaths. It was an all out brawl that only stopped with MPs almost killing both sides even more. Any of you people here that think war aint the absolute expression of human hate, frustration, racism, madness, and total insanity are stupid. Theres nothing like someone pointing a weapon at you. Cleaned out all MY daydreaming. People get into "death sports" and what have you..wanna know why? makes you know what its like to really be alive. Lewis

see "75mm fuzes post" Its one thing to be read the "riot act" and then have noone respond here. Steve needs to address it. Im playing by the rules. Lewis

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tim: I hope this makes sense, but I´m so drunk I don´t really care anyway. Have a great weekend. Tim <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Here, Here I am personally exploring a new potent brew called 'Ele-(hic)-phant' beer, ahem, 7.2 % and very effective TD.. uh ..I mean..brain destroyer..BD! beer. Happy cinco de Mayo ya'all!! ::Lewis:: (hic)

"The German Sturmgeschutze in WWII 1939-1945" Wolfgang Fleischer/Richard Eirmann States there was a variable 0.15 second option on the 75mm HE shell. I quote from pg 74: "In addition the assault gun crews could use exp,losive shell34. These shells were made of pressed cast steel. They had an impact igniter with an adjustable delay (0.15 seconds)which allowed the shot effect on the target to be set optimally. For example, when firing ricochet shots, the igniter was set for delay. The shot, landing flat on the ground, bounced off and exploded only when the igniter setting was reached. With ricochet firing, great splinter effect could be achieved against living targets not covered from above." Be nice if someone would comment. Lewis

I see a great idea for a product. In bar's restrooms have a HALotosis computer breath analyzer. It could be put up next to the condom machine. Drunks who want to know how much their rot-gut alkybreath stinks can put in a quarter and blow into a tube. Maybe tell them their blood alchohol content too. Then they can go up to a girl and ask her to drive him home. Sometimes I amaze myself. Lewis

Read: WAR on the EASTERN FRONT The German Soldier in Russia 1941-1945 James Lucas The eastern front was like the wild west. It was wide open and brutal. Tank warfare evolved to its most refined state. Airpower did not completely swing to supremacy for very long for either side. Encirclement warfare with prisoners numbering in the hundreds of thousands. Two nations with leaders both totally ruthless if not psychotic. It was racist, idealogical total war. What more you want? Lewis