Ron

Thanks for the informative read ASL Vet. I am curious when the FPL-Grazing Fire of MGs would be applicable in CM terms. Would it only be possible in defensive, prepared positions, ie stationary from setup? Or could a platoon of MGs prepare these fires in short order after moving to new positions, ie in a meeting engagement? Ron

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username: I am at a loss as to why you are using a second coy that is green? If anything, we are exploring the lethality of MGs and the troops should be brazenly exposing themselves. At least keep all troops the same. I work with "scientists", so dont feel bad. They do alot worse. How are you "assaulting" the position? Are you giving a RUN order into the flags? How long is the test? Are you targetting or letting the TACAI do its thing? Who has the most kills at the end? Luckily Steve isnt here or he would gushingly agree that your tests are verification of his MG modeling. Lewis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, I could have used two Elite StormTroop Companys I agree, but proving what? I ordered the VGs tp Run to the objective, two platoons per US squad. The TacAI handled everything after that, firing and moving. The TacAI would downgrade some of the VG squads from Run to Move after they had taken fire. The US MGs didn't always support the Rifle platoon as they were being overwhelmed, seemingly more interested in the fleeing Germans in the open. You should know by now how MGs in CM work, they 'prep and soften' the target and the squads finish them off. Of course the squads received the most 'Kills'. If Steve is gushing from this, will I receive a free copy of CM2? Ron EDIT: The HQs used in the tests: US HQs Plt - +2Command/+1Combat/+1Morale MG - +1Combat/+2Stealth MG - +1Combat/+2Morale/+1Stealth German HQs Plt - +1Command/+1Combat/+1Morale Plt - +1Command/+1Combat Plt - +2Command/+1Morale/+1Stealth Plt - +1Command Plt - +2Command/+1Combat/+2Morale/+1Stealth Plt - +2Command/+1Combat Coy - +1Command/+1Combat/+1Morale Coy - +2Command/+1Combat/+2Stealth [ 04-12-2001: Message edited by: Ron ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillar: How dare us MG-obsessed crazy grogs have lives to get in the way of our testing. No worries Ron, hehe. If anyone is up to doing the test please follow the format Ron did, it was very complete. I'll add as a note here (if it hasn't already been said) that in Ron's test, despite the casualties, the taking cover/pinned rate was very low. Take into consideration the things Lewis said, and it appears even worse. There should be a lot more going on here in the way of suppresion than what is shown. [ 04-11-2001: Message edited by: Pillar ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just a clarification Pillar, the HQs/Squads I listed as Pinned/TakingCover etc. in the above tests(and below) were the only ones who had reached the *objective* in *good order*, ie every other German unit had either retreated back to the start line, was Broken, Routed, Panic or KIA. Setup another test per the screenshot above except now Two VG SMG Companys(1 Green & 1 Regular - Total 190 troops) assault over ~210m of open ground to the US positions, consisting of a Rifle 44 Platoon(40 troops), Regular, and 4 x 1919MMGs w/HQs, Regulars. HQs are random, though I adjusted the German HQ Command bonus so all troops got off the line together. Ran it 10 times for two minutes each, the results are : "German casualties"; number of GE squads/HQs that were at the objective in *good order* at the end of two minutes, ie not Panic, Broken or Routed, wasn't concerned about number of men in the unit, just their 'state'; then "US casualties", status. 1 - 99 GE cas - 2 HQs Ok/2 HQs Shaken/1 Sqd Pinned : 6 US cas 2 - 80 GE cas - 2 HQs Ok/2 HQs Shaken/3 Sqds Pinned/2 Sqds Alerted/2 Sqds Ok : 15 US cas/1 Sqd Panic/1 Jam 3 - 86 GE cas - 3 HQs Ok/2 HQs Pinned/3 Sqds Alerted/1 Sqd Pinned : 11 US cas 4 - 72 GE cas - 3 HQs Ok/3 HQs Pinned/2 Sqds Shaken/3 Sqds Ok : 14 US cas/3 Sqds Panic/2 Jams 5 - 79 GE cas - 1 HQ Ok/2 HQs Pinned/3 Sqds Shaken/1 Sqd Alerted/2 Sqds ok : 18 US cas/1 Sqd Panic/1 Jam 6 - 82 GE cas - 3 HQs Shaken/2 Sqds Pinned-Taking Cover/1 Sqd Alerted : 17 US cas/1 Sqd Panic/1 Jam 7 - 93 GE cas - 3 HQs Shaken/ 5 Sqds Pinned-Taking Cover : 8 US cas 8 - 76 GE cas - 2 HQs Alerted/2 Sqds Pinned/1 Sqd Shaken/4 Sqds Cautious : 12 US cas/1 Sqd Panic/1 Jam 9 - 75 Ge cas - 2 HQs Alerted/2 Sqds Pinned-Taking Cover/4 Sqds Shaken/1 Sqd Cautious : 7 US cas 0 - 84 GE cas - 2 HQs Pinned/1 HQ Ok/2 Sqds Pinned-Taking Cover/3 Sqds Shaken : 6 US cas Leave it to those who know to make of these results what they will. It seems to me though to be a costly way of doing business for the Germans. Ron [ 04-12-2001: Message edited by: Ron ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillar: I was serious. Keen observation Lewis. Nice not having to explain everything If you aren't up to it Ron that's no problem. Someone will do it eventually, maybe even me (Yeah, we're all lazy SOBS aren't we?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No harm, just read yours after posting the last test, and yeah about the lazy SOBs I only set it up like this because of the other fellow posting a screenshot saying "this is what we are talking about" etc. Perhaps another time I will run it with two companys... Ron

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillar: 100m is a long way to go under continuous MG fire from multiple MG's firing grazing fire over specific overlapping fire lanes. Ron, try that test with two companies when you get some time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Lol, there's a joker in every crowd! :eek: Ron

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron: Setup another test per the screenshot. A VG SMG Company assaults over ~220-230m of open ground to the US positions of a Rifle44 Platoon and 4 x 1919MMGs. All troops from both sides are Regular, HQs are random, though I made the Germans all have a +2 command bonus. Ran 10 times for two minutes each, the results are : "German casualties"; number of GE squads/HQs that were at the objective in 'good order' at the end of two minutes, ie not Panic, Broken or Routed, wasn't concerned about number of men in the unit, just their 'state', then "US casualties". 1 - 32 GE cas - 1 HQ Alerted/3 Sqds Pinned/Shaken : 13 US cas 2 - 63 GE cas - 1 HQ Pinned/Taking Cover : 2 US cas 3 - 47 GE cas - 1 HQ Alerted/1 Sqd Pinned : 6 US cas 4 - 61 GE cas - 1 HQ : 1 US cas 5 - 35 GE cas - 1 HQ/2 Sqds Pinned/Taking Cover : 6 US cas 6 - 58 GE cas - 2 HQs-1 Sqd Pinned/Taking Cover : 2 US cas 7 - 55 GE cas - 2 HQs-2 Sqds Shaken/Cautious : 4 US cas 8 - 49 GE cas - 2 HQs-3 Sqds Pinned/TakingCover : 14 US cas 9 - 60 GE cas - 2 HQs Shaken/2 Sqds Pinned : 7 US cas 0 - 46 GE cas - 2 HQs Alerted/2 Sqds Pinned/Taking Cover : 8 US cas Only in one test (#1) did the Germans have the upper hand in their immediate area after the assault, and only because 2 of the 1919MMGs Jammed, every other case they were totally ineffective as a force, and even in the first test the US could have easily counter-attacked and regained that position. I saw a few German squads 'taking cover' in the open, they would remain like that until they were fired upon again at which point they would seek cover 'normally'. Now if the VG Company was closer, say under 100m, then I have little doubt they would overrun the US positions, however I would have been doing a piss-poor job as commander if a company of infantry could mass undetected less than 100m from my troops! Before that occurred there would be mortars, artillery and direct area fire to break it up or at least buy me time to make my counter-moves. I agree though there might need be a tweak to the rate of infantry fast/assault moving in combination with the suppressive effects of MG fire. Just my thoughts.... Ron<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Setup another test with the same parameters except the VG Company was only 120m from the US postions this time and the tests were run for one minute. Because of the time it took to spot the running Germans, the US MGs never opened up until the Germans were less than 100m away. The results: 1 - 30 GE cas - 2 HQs & 4 Sqds Shaken/Cautious : 3 US cas/1 Jam 2 - 32 GE cas - 2 HQs Shaken/1 Sqd Pinned : 0 US cas 3 - 34 GE cas - 2 HQs & 2 Sqds Pinned/2 Sqds Shaken/1 Sqd Ok : 3 US cas/2 Jams 4 - 38 Ge cas - 3 HQs & 2 Sqds Pinned/Shaken : 1 US cas/1 Jam 5 - 33 Ge cas - 3 HQs & 2 Sqds Cautious/ 2 Sqds Pinned : 2 US cas/2 Jams 6 - 35 GE cas - 1 HQ Shaken/2 Sqds Pinned/Taking Cover : 4 US cas 7 - 25 GE cas - 2 HQs Alerted/2 Sqds Pinned : 7 US cas/1 Sqd Pinned 8 - 41 GE cas - 1 HQ & 1 Sqd Shaken : 1 US cas 9 - 33 GE cas - 2 HQs & 2 Sqds Pinned/Taking Cover : 2 US cas 0 - 26 GE cas - 1 HQ Alerted/3 Sqds Shaken : 0 US cas I thought the US position would be swamped, it wasn't, the Germans were gutted every time. Actually this *test* appeared more realistic than the first because about half of the attacking Germans retreated back to the start line after taking a little fire. In the first test they would usually carry on forward. I'm sure it has to do with the way CM handles troops seeking cover, in this example the German start line was the 'nearest' cover. Ron

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASL Veteran: That is an interesting test. Now, this shows that you can successfully defend against a rush of Volksgrenadiers across 250 meters of open ground with three or four MGs placed in flanking position. Now, one thing to keep in mind about your test is that each MG is using point fire against one VG squad as it is running about in the open. Presumably switching targets when appropriate. You also state that if the distance was less, say 100 meters, they would overrun the position. Your conclusion says - well, if I let the enemy that close I'm a poor commander anyway - or something to that effect. Okay, now lets look at that example if 'Grazing fire' was included in CM. Well, each of the three or four MGs would be hitting everyVG squad that is running about in the open ... huge difference. CM now has each MG engaging each squad one to one. If you had grazing fire each MG would be hitting every squad. So, rather than one MG hitting one squad then switching to another squad you would have everysquad getting hit by every MG. So, each VG squad would be getting hit by three or four MGs all at once. How far do you think those VGs are going to get if each squad is getting hit by three or four MGs at same time? Probably not very far eh? Maybe not more than 20 meters? So while your example is interesting, it is most interesting for what it shows is lacking. Grazing Fire. Try spreading the VGs out a little too so CMs beaten zone effects are reduced and the charge will probably succeed a little more often. Naturally, spreading them out would have no effect on 'grazing fire'. One more point, grazing fire does involved moderate swinging of the MG from left to right (or vice versa) which would widen the 'firelane' into more of a triangular shape that is horizontal to the ground. It could maybe be ten or fifteen meters wide toward the end of the 'lane' hitting everything within that 'area'.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well the "piss-poor commander" comment wasn't directed at anyone at all, just that's the conclusion I would come to if such a thing happened to me, knowing full well it(massing of troops) can be dealt with effectively beforehand. Steve has said earlier in this thread that *grazing fire* is in CM. Now perhaps a clarification of what grazing fire actually is should be made, and how it is implemented in CM. Ok, what I observed from the MG fire was as I commented before, it has an area affect, about a radius of 15m or so I believe. I didn't notice that the effects of the MG LOF extended beyond that, ie the center platoon in my example above wasn't affected by the MG fire on the wing platoons. Ron

Setup another test per the screenshot. A VG SMG Company assaults over ~220-230m of open ground to the US positions of a Rifle44 Platoon and 4 x 1919MMGs. All troops from both sides are Regular, HQs are random, though I made the Germans all have a +2 command bonus. Ran 10 times for two minutes each, the results are : "German casualties"; number of GE squads/HQs that were at the objective in 'good order' at the end of two minutes, ie not Panic, Broken or Routed, wasn't concerned about number of men in the unit, just their 'state', then "US casualties". 1 - 32 GE cas - 1 HQ Alerted/3 Sqds Pinned/Shaken : 13 US cas 2 - 63 GE cas - 1 HQ Pinned/Taking Cover : 2 US cas 3 - 47 GE cas - 1 HQ Alerted/1 Sqd Pinned : 6 US cas 4 - 61 GE cas - 1 HQ : 1 US cas 5 - 35 GE cas - 1 HQ/2 Sqds Pinned/Taking Cover : 6 US cas 6 - 58 GE cas - 2 HQs-1 Sqd Pinned/Taking Cover : 2 US cas 7 - 55 GE cas - 2 HQs-2 Sqds Shaken/Cautious : 4 US cas 8 - 49 GE cas - 2 HQs-3 Sqds Pinned/TakingCover : 14 US cas 9 - 60 GE cas - 2 HQs Shaken/2 Sqds Pinned : 7 US cas 0 - 46 GE cas - 2 HQs Alerted/2 Sqds Pinned/Taking Cover : 8 US cas Only in one test (#1) did the Germans have the upper hand in their immediate area after the assault, and only because 2 of the 1919MMGs Jammed, every other case they were totally ineffective as a force, and even in the first test the US could have easily counter-attacked and regained that position. I saw a few German squads 'taking cover' in the open, they would remain like that until they were fired upon again at which point they would seek cover 'normally'. Now if the VG Company was closer, say under 100m, then I have little doubt they would overrun the US positions, however I would have been doing a piss-poor job as commander if a company of infantry could mass undetected less than 100m from my troops! Before that occurred there would be mortars, artillery and direct area fire to break it up or at least buy me time to make my counter-moves. I agree though there might need be a tweak to the rate of infantry fast/assault moving in combination with the suppressive effects of MG fire. Just my thoughts.... Ron

Not out to prove anything, simply curious and thought I would share a couple *experiments* I ran. I ran something similar when the full game first came out, before the tweak to troops running in the open, needless to say things are definitely more dangerous now. Attacking platoons are Regular, HQ has a +2 Command bonus(to keep the troops in command for as long as possible). Defending MGs are Veteran, HQs have +1 Morale/Combat, Rifle Squad is Regular. Tests are run one minute only, 10 times. Platoons given orders to run the ~250m & 200m to the woods opposite, TacAI handled targetting. Rifle Plt/Woods | | 2 5 0 m___150m__MG/Woods | | MG/Woods US Rifle44 Plt vs 2 MG42s 1 - 12 US casualties: 1 sqd Broken/1 sqd Routed/1 sqd Retreated 2 - 13 US casualties: 2 sqds Routed/1 sqd Panic 3 - 12 US casualties: 1 sqd Broken/1 sqd Routed/1 sqd Shaken 4 - 14 US casualties: 1 sqd Broken/1 sqd Routed/1 sqd Shaken 5 - 8 US casualties: 2 sqds Routed/1 sqd Shaken 6 - 11 US casualties: 1 sqd Shaken/2 sqds Panic 7 - 6 US casualties: 1 sqd Retreated/2 sqds Panic 8 - 8 US casualties: 1 sqd Retreated/1 sqd Routed/1 sqd Shaken 9 - 16 US casualties: 1 sqd Broken/1 sqd Routed/1 sqd Cautious 0 - 11 US casualties: 2 sqds Broken/1 sqd Routed GE Rifle44 Plt vs 2 1919MMGs 1 - 6 GE casualties: 2 sqds Cautious/1 sqd Shaken 2 - 4 GE casualties: 1 sqd Cautious/2 sqds Panic 3 - 5 GE casualties: 1 sqd Broken/1 sqd Panic/1 sqd Shaken 4 - 6 GE casualties: 1 sqd Retreated/1 sqd Panic/1 sqd Shaken 5 - 6 GE casualties: 2 sqds Panic 6 - 7 GE casualties: 2 sqds Panic/1 sqd Shaken 7 - 6 GE casualties: 2 sqds Panic/1 sqd Shaken 8 - 6 GE casualties: 1 sqd Retreated/1 sqd Shaken/1 sqd Cautious 9 - 7 GE casualties: 1 sqd Broken/2 sqds Panic 0 - 4 GE casualties: 1 sqd Retreated/2 sqds Shaken Rifle Pltx2/Woods | | 2 0 0 m___150m__MG/Woods | | MG/Rifle Sqd/Woods 2 x US Rifle44 Plts vs 2 MG42s & 1 Rifle44 Sqd 1 - 31 US casualties: 2 sqds Broken/1 sqd Routed/2 sqds Shaken/1 sqd Panic 2 - 26 US casualties: 1 sqd Retreated/2 sqds Panic/2 sqds Routed/1 sqd Broken 3 - 24 US casualties: 2 sqds Retreated/3 sqds Routed/1 sqd Panic 4 - 29 US casualties: 2 sqds Broken/2 sqds Routed/1 sqd Panic/1 sqd Shaken 5 - 27 US casualties: 3 sqds Routed/1 sqd Broken/2 sqds Shaken 6 - 31 US casualties: 2 sqds Broken/2 sqds Routed/2 sqds Panic 7 - 29 US casualties: 3 sqds Broken/1 sqd Routed/1 sqd Panic/1 sqd Shaken 8 - 30 US casualties: 2 sqds Routed/2 sqds Broken/1 sqd Retreated/1 sqd Panic 9 - 38 US casualties: 1 sqd Retreated/2 sqds Panic/2 sqds Broken/1 sqd Routed 0 - 32 US casualties: 2 sqds Retreated/3 sqds Routed/1 sqd Broken 2 x GE Rifle44 Plts vs 2 1919MMGs & 1 Rifle44 Sqd 1 - 26 GE casualties: 2 sqds Routed/2 sqds Panic/2 sqds Shaken 2 - 34 GE casualties: 3 sqds Panic/1 sqd Routed/2 sqds Shaken 3 - 18 GE casualties: 1 sqd Retreated/2 sqds Panic/3 sqds Shaken 4 - 23 GE casualties: 2 sqds Broken/1 sqd Routed/2 sqds Shaken/1 sqd Panic 5 - 29 GE casualties: 1 sqd Retreated/3 sqds Routed/1 sqd Panic/1 sqd Broken 6 - 32 GE casualties: 1 sqd Routed/3 sqds Panic/1 sqd Shaken/1 sqd Cautious 7 - 25 GE casualties: 2 sqds Broken/1 sqd Routed/2 sqds Panic/1 sqd Shaken 8 - 21 GE casualties: 1 sqd Retreated/2 sqds Broken/2 sqds Shaken/1 sqd Panic 9 - 24 GE casualties: 2 sqds Broken/1 sqd Routed/1 sqd Shaken/2 sqds Panic 0 - 37 GE casualties: 2 sqds Retreated/2 sqds KIA/2 sqds Routed Some guys are saying troops should drop to the ground once a MG opens up, in CM the dynamics of seeking cover prevents troops from ever doing that in 'open' terrain, they will instead head for 'real' cover. From the examples above, sometimes one burst from a MG will cause a squad to retreat back to its startline if the squad hasn't gotten very far yet, but usually the affects of the MG took a little longer to accumulate and by that time the squads were at the 'point of no return'. Of note, most of the damage occurred in the last 30s of the turn. Should the suppressive affects of the MGs be happening 'sooner or quicker'? I don't know, but as you can see they are there. I thought the differences between the MG42 and 1919MMG were very telling, and how by including a US Rifle44 squad in the defense with the 1919MMG, comparable results were achieved with the Germans. Ron

*Captain Foobar*, I think I know where you are coming from. After being away from CM for awhile I completed a couple games where I experienced that human-wave assault w/VG SMG platoons - gamey b******s, you know who you are! I didn't quite grasp what 'unrestricted' could possibly mean, now I know! Anyways my friends in those games were the 81mm FOs and the M3A1 HT/Scout Cars, they served to break up the assaults before they could hit home, allowing my infantry to deal with depleted VGs piecemeal. Don't know if I got lucky or not but a suggestion for what it's worth... Ron

Just like to add a couple points here, CM does factor in an area effect for MGs, IIRC it has a radius of about 15m or so from the target. Flanking fire is deadly in CM against troops running in the open, try those tests again with two or three interlocking MGs and see what happens. Two MG42s will stop a platoon from 200m out nine times out of ten. The US 1919 MMG is a weak MG I have found, about on par with the British Vickers. You will need more of them to be as effective as the MG42. That said, there's always room for improved modelling which BTS seems intent on.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlyBelle: I've just placed my order for CM and in the meanwhile, I've been playing the demo version. I have a couple of questions that I'm hoping somebody can help me with: 1) In preparation in playing the game, I've noticed many posts about downloading MODS to make the game better. After reviewing several sites, it appears that there are MODS in HI-RES and LOW-RES. Before I begin downloading these large files, which ones should I use? What kind of hardware should you have to run HI-RES? Any other considerations? Does it slow down performance? My system is a P450 with 128MB of RAM. My video card has 16MB of RAM. 2) When giving orders, I can't figure out how to string multiple orders together in one turn. For example, how would I make a squad go kinda do the following: a) Go to a waypoint Kneel down c) Check the area and fire at a target, if necessary, maybe pause d) stand-up and go to the next way point e) Get in the prone position. The key is that I want this to occur within a 60-second turn (of course assuming I have enough action points available). 3) Any hints on how to manage your forces. For example, since the battlefields tend to be somewhat large, how do you keep a handle on what's going on with all of your units? How can you globally see the results of a turn without checking each unit? Any help would be appreciated.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 1 - The game will determine whether to use Hi or Low Res graphics on its own depending on your system. I guess you would have to experiment to find out exactly when/if any slowdowns occur, however Hi-res grass is a real hog. 2 - You aren't able to give that type of detailed order, per your example, in one 60s turn. You are able to string together different movement waypoints in a turn, and from experience you will learn how much you can do in 60s. I have noticed many people try to do too much in the 60s turn, what you described is entirely possible over 2 - 3 'turns'. 3 - There are audio and visual cues that alert you to enemy sightings, your troops being shot etc., I find that's how I gather most of my info without having to click on each and every unit. As for managing your forces, well that depends on your style, I usually mentally assign platoons/companys and support certain tasks so the map is broken up that way. If you are talking of some sort of roster then I suggest you search that topic first as it has been discussed in depth. Hope that helps... Ron

Personally I have never seen 0% but there could be several factors involved which you didn't mention, such as size of the target, range to target, intervening terrain obstructions, type of gun firing etc. Ron

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolfe: It'll probably take a little while to get sued to the new look. But one thing I already dislike is the forced auto-refresh of the main forums pages. This tag: {META HTTP-EQUIV="Pragma" CONTENT="no-cache"} is on every page and does not allow you to simply hit the back button on the Netscape browser to return to the page you just left without reloading it (it doesn't seem to affect IE, BTW). If I need to refresh/reload a page, I can easily hit the appropriate button on my browser. The forum really doesn't need to do this for me. Any chance you could nuke this "feature"? Thanks. - Chris<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Good idea I was just about to post the same thing! Ron

More choices, Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club Rugged Defense Wargame Club The Grognards Ron

SPOILERS * * * * * * * * <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What do you think of the force balance?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Definitely favors the Germans. The Panther clearly outclasses anything the US has, presenting a stone wall as the US force has little room for maneuver. The US has numerous support weapons though, but being Green they aren't that useful. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What of the map?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Again IMO it favors the German defender. The US force is restricted to three avenues of approach, two of which can be easily defended by the German AT gun and Panther. The terrain and conditions limit off-road movement lessening the appeal of the third. Already I have had three vehicles bog, one leading to an immobilization. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Which is most important when working up the tactical approach (either on O or D) in this game<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> For the offense: Luck, no two ways around it. For the defense: Well my opponent has been pretty passive which has proven to be very successful so probably not much more than that is needed. Just my grumbling two cents. Ron

The Puma isn't so bad either Ron

I'm not so sure if there's a problem with the points advantage given to the Attacker but perhaps how it is allocated. When the defender is given a Combined Arms force, IMO, not enough points are allowed for infantry/support. Selecting an Infantry force alleviates that but then eliminates the vehicle and armour selection. What type of force do you use when defending? Personally I would choose an Infantry force, the attack/defend QBs I have played have been difficult but not unwinnable I felt. Ron

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I rather think we gamers tend to use our light vehicles more aggressively than was historical, though I have no hard and fast data on this. Lacking the flexibility of real units (to be able to sneak and peak more effectively) and lacking the drive of self-preservation (send that Greyhound up against a PzKw IV? Sure, why not?), I suspect our tactics aren't 100% historical.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No doubt, Pumas, Greyhounds and Daimlers commanded by Audie Murphy types seems to be the norm rather than the exception. Ron

Pain, I don't know at what range the hidden vehicle would open up but I have seen a few cases where they didn't, just sat there taking fire. Maybe the 'engage' limit for vehicles when hidden could be extended? The only time I use it would be in a natural draw where the only way they can be gotten to is when the enemy drives right up to the lip. As others have said it makes the vehicle more 'quiet', whether that means the engine is just idling or shut off I don't know. Ron

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I imagine the vehicle would still open fire automatically when the enemy comes within optimum firing distance, but then again, being a vehicle, it will probably already have been spotted at that point.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> From my experience it won't so I would be very wary of using it when there's a possibility of the enemy coming into LOS. Ron

I use it all the time and wouldn't want it removed or have support teams drop their weapons(!). I agree with Mark IV in that once the enemy gets in close enough it is pointless to 'withdraw' as your troops will just get cut down with nothing in return, better off just leaving them in place. Before the situation has fully developed or turned totally bad is when to use it, some examples off the top of my head, vacating a damaged building, observation of a spotting round landing near your troops, pulling back from an ambush or pulling back from a superior flanking maneuver. Green troops, who need it most because of their long delay, seem a lot more fragile when withdrawing and will generally fall apart if taking any fire. Regular and Veteran troops react better, usually don't need it for the higher quality troops because their delay is slight anyway. The movement path will be a regular waypoint the next turn to be adjusted as needed. I like the flexibility of no delay in the the Withdraw order, the negatives of lower morale seem negligible when I use it. Ron

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Lawyer wrote: When playing CM, particularly QB's, do you plan your initial attack or defense to cover all Victroy Flags, or do you intentionally abandon some from the start in order to concentrate your forces and enhance your ablility to win selected flags?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I play with the overall goal of a Total victory, all the flags, however initially when attacking I will concentrate in a certain area only, to dominate there first then proceed to the secondary objectives. I think that's a necessity for a successful attack. If I feel my force is not strong enough to continue on taking the secondary objectives, then I would feel my opponent had played a good game and I will offer a ceasefire. On the defense the same judgement applies I think, if a flag is indefensible, IMO, then I won't waste resources to 'hold' it. Ron

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>KwazyDog wrote: One thing that may help is to make sure when moving in suspect territory that you use the HUNT command, as you tanks will be much more likely to ignore any enemy infantry that isnt an AT gun or unit. Im not saying that there isnt more tweaks that would help guys, Im just pointing out that the problem is deeper than it may first seem To be honest I must use my tanks differently from some because I cant recall a problem using them since Charles made some tweaks to tanks behaviour in the last patch. Oh, make sure you are using 1.05 guys, that will of course make a big difference.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh I agree to a certain point, I never really had any problem with the tank AI at all and wondered what some people were complaining about. However just watching a movie from a QB has got me shaking my head. Situation: I was breaking thru the US line with a platoon of Pzgs/HTs and a Panther. There was a US half squad remaining to the left and one man from a US CoHQ to the right. These were being engaged by my troops and HTs, good, that's their job. The Panther's job was to deal with the bypassed Churchill lurking behind some woods. For my orders, I extend the Panther's waypoints to swing around and get the Churchill on the flank. I get the movie and am anticipating a decisive move by my Panther. Against all odds the one man US CoHQ survives the fire from the Pzg squad(10m), fires on the Panther and buttons it up. The Panther's turret, semi-directed at the Churchill, starts swinging around right to engage the lone man HQ. Now the Panther is well into it's move and the Churchill spots it first and fires a hit to the lower hull, internal flaking but no damage. The Panther moves some more but finally spots the Churchill itself at less than 100m and stops to engage, only it's turret is about as far away as it can get. The Churchill scores another hit, a ricochet to the upper hull. The turret still swings. Another hit, another ricochet, this is agonizing. The turret is almost there as the Churchill's final shot bounces off of the Panther's front turret. The Panther fires one shot, a brew up. I sweated, I know I was lucky but the 'problem' really shouldn't be there in this situation. It isn't whether to engage infantry or not at certain ranges but more like having an attention span longer than a millisecond. Oh yeah, at the end of the movie the one man US CoHQ still survived, don't ask me how. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Madmatt wrote: But, as I have said, Targeting preferences and TacAi behavior are constantly under the microscope with the Beta Team and will continue to be so for the foreseeable and distant futures. We know it is not perfect and that situations like the above happen. What we are committed to doing is making sure that they still happen, just less frequently. This is a very hard issue to tweak just right, as soon as a change is made to account for one situation a gaping hole is exposed that allows for an even larger ahistorical situation. All I can say is that we continue to work on it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I understand and am glad to hear it. I just felt compelled to relate this incident. Ron

In one of my first games from the Beta demo a bazooka team took out a Stug at 200m with it's first shot. It so incensed my opponent, a fellow by the name of Schrodi, that he came on the forum to vent his frustration, causing a fair bit of grief among the regulars at the time. Ron