Mark IV

This really was one of the things handled nicely by SP (Steel Panthers): random scenario lengths. A 25-turn game went for maybe 27-30 turns, you never knew... This whole issue (gamey play) has not really been a problem for me. I doubt whether it has for most, though posts here indicate that it does indeed exist. With random scenario lengths, that "last minute" rush may not be the last minute after all, and I recommend it wholeheartedly. Again!

...which would be here http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/002893.html ... ...which reminded me about the infamous "sycophant" outbreak, long predating hamsters as the token CM mammal. For a priceless slice of pre-Gold pyromania featuring all your favorite stars, may I recommend http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/002282.html ... ... I love sustained ellipses...

Babs, nice to see you back. I've reserved a slot on the dance-card for you, which you have surely earned... fire at will. In reply to a Confession I once wrote, which ended thus: "Once in a great while, I am reminded that the artillery deserves their RVs and lawn chairs, and can truly be a magic wand of fireballs (love that phrase)"... ... the usually-shy Bullethead contributed: This is called an "epiphany". In this type of situation, the usual manifestation seems to be a vision of St. Barbara seen hovering above the shellbursts. She is usually described as in the throes of a massive wargasm, caused by straddling a red-hot 155mm gun tube, and uttering the following between pants and gasps of ecstacy: "Grovel, pitiful cannonfodder. Suck the tit of Mother Earth and pray I find you too insignificant to utterly destroy." So, did you see this vision? If so, then you are truly blessed. Cool points for both dialogue and character development... come to think of it, the "Cool Points" thread itself might be another classic of CM lore.

You had basically 2 guys working for 3 years on this hummer, and they produced a "wargame with integrity" (to coin a phrase, and here's hoping they didn't resort to DeLorean's methods of alternative financing). The price is MORE than competitive for what you get, and who bloody cares where the margin goes? You would have gotten no benefit out of more marketing (you bought it anyway), I will send you a game box if you like free of charge, and you would have paid the shipping cost to UK if you'd bought it in a store anyway, just not as a separate line item (would have been built into the shelf price). Profit and an evident love for the genre were the only motivations these guys could have had, so the more the better. Without reward to individual entrepreneurs you'd be playing Hasbro now. Whether it's worth it to you is certainly your own decision. But the desire to make a better living is fundamental to all the advances in a free society and this is a textbook example of that precept. Lemme know where you want that box shipped, and if you want I'll create a spec sheet and a TV spot (well, Powerpoint) for it, as well. I would have paid $45 once for the demo, and again for the release (though I'll expect a $30 credit toward CM2 for developing the above promotional materials) .

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AggroMann: This tread is huge and annoying.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Tsk, tsk. A curious observation for a marine biologist wannabe to make. There is a plethora of fascinating swamp life here to study, the very least of which (probably Meeks) has made a significantly greater contribution to CM than you, my boy. Now, some helpful hints on your way to a GED: "Treads" are found on tanks. Tanks are found in CM. This is a "thread". Annoyances are found in threads. Congratulations- you have been discovered! This "thread" used to be significantly larger until it imploded, of the sheer vacuum created by having sucked the joy, creativity, and spell-checkers from Your World. You will find, with the aid of counsellors, that the source of your own annoyance is having clicked on the link that takes you here. It is because of people like you, that McDonald's now has to put warning labels on coffee reminding people that it is "hot", and decent folk have to lock up their swimming pools and surround them with sandbags and security guards. Remember that the time we spend here, is time we cannot spend dynamiting coral reefs for tasty abalone and the occasional whale feast, such as the tender young blue we had at our last convention. I remember Seanatchai leading a sing-song to its cries as, consumed alive with chopsticks, it bellowed for its mother. Haunting, though a bit salty. Thanks for your contribution and come again soon!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra: at some point, the cost of CM per hour of gameplay will be so low as to be effectively zero. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I have passed that point. CM is now in the negative numbers per hour because I have played it so much, to where it is now actually generating revenue each time I play. Quite a handsome little profit center. I have not been able to convey this fully to the GF but I believe it in my heart and I have the numbers to prove it.

The Japanese probably used bicycles more (in the Malaya campaign) than any other army, in a tactical sense (they brought 6000 with them and purchased or took more in Malaya). The perfectly maintained asphalt roads through the jungle, built by the British, greatly facilitated the invasion. The invasion plan was virtually structured around the bicycle. They also were "caught" (observed) in transit by British and Australian soldiers, but the observers were hiding for their lives at the time. Some observed that the Japanese rifles were lashed across the handlebars and could not be quickly deployed. This was because they were not expected to ride into battle. The bicycles were left behind the scene of engagements, and carried forward by coolies or other local labor after the battle, where the infantry could remount and renew the pursuit. Each company had a 2-man bicycle repair squad. The high heat caused the tires to puncture easily, and when in pursuit of the retreating enemy the Japanese removed the tires and rode the rims on the asphalt. The seat had a compartment or sack which could accomodate 65-80 lbs. of gear, and the rider often carried an LMG plus his rifle. Masanobu Tsuji says they rode up to 20 miles per day on the advance, holding the bikes overhead when rivers were forded. In any case, you would not see them in CM's scale; they were only the means by which the troops got to the battle area, and the final advance was on foot.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lanzfeld: Divide $45.00 by the number of hours you have spent totally facinated by Combat Mission. When I do it I come up with something like .16 cents per hour and the more I play it the cheaper it is!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> While I agree whole-heartedly with the sentiment... ...this means you have spent only 281 hours and 15 minutes with CM, or not quite 12 straight days. What the hell is the matter with you, some kind of pacifist or what? You need to stock up on some coffee and liquor and catch up...

Well, yeah, there's that... good eye.

Now that I'm finally caught up on my turns: 1) Where are my turns? 2) Hakko/Ethan/PDHX has destroyed the property values of half of what was once a good neighborhood, thanks to the absurd historical setup (how did historicals get themselves into such situations?). Coin flip. 3) Slaw & I are at the cusp of two potentially decisive quickdraws which should either establish my mental supremacy for all to see (as though there were any doubt), or hitherto undocumented bugs in the game mechanics. 3) The Lawyer (who is not a registered Cesspudlian, but ought to be, except that he is unable to muster the requisite character references) is walking (make that scurrying) dead, and I will soon habeas his stinking corpus. Don't think about that too hard (Bauhaus!). 4) Gerbiltoy has sent me a ludicrous and squire-esque thing which I have had the temerity to return. Again he chooses things which drop from the sky (bird**** and fools, to coin a phrase) which have fealty to inbred sexual deviate families, and officers who purchase their commissions. I assume that once again they have managed to airdrop a few battalions of heavy artillery and a week's worth of ammo as well, as he would be utterly lost without his trademark accoutrements. 5) Meeks, whose knowledge of tactics in general and the ACW in particular would fit on the head of a pin in double-spaced 18-point Helvetica bold, is too terrified to even issue a challenge, despite my having extracted his entrails before his family at their Thanksgiving table, making balloon animals to the delight of his younger siblings out of his colon, and using his dried, but still remarkably pliable (stand UP, Bauhaus, yes, now!) sphincter as a Twist-tie for his own bodybag. But I forgive the omission as he forgives mine. Amen. [This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 11-04-2000).]

Interesting observation. This was a big problem with the co-ax in the M60, and probably in WWII. Certainly would make a difference in CM2 with Russkis swarming the AFV.

I can't agree with some of this. Perhaps we are losing something to semantics. "Scouting" by a scout platoon in its strictest definition is what ScoutPL seems to be referring to. But CM does not have scout platoons, and even modern scout platoons are used in other roles, including area scouting and screening. I refer often to FM 71-2, The Tank and Mechanized Infantry Battalion Task Force. The section on Movement to Contact is most applicable to CM Quick Battle meeting engagements. Caveat: Both ScoutPL's observations above and FM 71-2 are based on several decades worth of improvement in weapons and tactics over those in CMs frame of reference. One shot-one kill weapons systems are now the norm (even if they don't always quite work out that way in practice). The range and lethality of modern weapons is vastly greater than those in WWII, and the prevalence of efficient radios, Ground Surveillance Radar, night vision, and other technologies has changed the nature of modern recon/scouting from CM. Anyway, a quote from the FM: "Since movement to contact occurs as the first step of an attack, or as internal steps of other operations, the commander deploys his unit so as to perform the overall mission. But in any case, he deploys his unit so as to make initial contact with the minimum force possible, to maintain mutual support between company teams, and to lessen the vulnerabilities of the task force. He also uses reconnaissance to gain information and security for his unit." (emphasis mine) In the true scouting role, the true scout platoon is not to engage in sustained combat, and is to conduct its operations by stealth. However, that kind of scouting is also part of the prelude to a CM battle, not the movement to contact ops our little 60 minutes or so are meant to represent. So perhaps what this thread began by referring to as "scouting", really refers to the lead elements of a force moving to contact. The Field Manual's ample diagrams and illustrations show the use of screening and advance units in the actual engagement, without regard for what the Red Army might consider gamey... Thumbing through "Company Commander" I find that MacDonald often mentions squads and platoons forward of the main force, as they advance, to find the enemy positions. Much of his ire, in fact, is directed toward American commanders who push ahead without recon or arty prep, and without regard for the lives of soldiers which might be spared with a little forethought. These actions ARE in the context of CM-style engagements. Lead, or forward, or screening elements (struggling to avoid the use of "scout") of an advance are not necessarily sacrificial lambs, anyway. You can Sneak to a woodline and learn a lot without taking fire, or at least taking serious casualties. What the hell, they're part of the attacking force- why is it wrong for them to share the same risk the "mass" of your attacking force is about to take? Deploy them in a manner where they can beat feet back to cover until you decide how you want your main force to deal with the situation. In a 1500-point, 30-turn QB, a medium map may have several VLs and widely separated hills, LOS obstacles, or villages. The suggestion that I must pick one and dash hell-for-leather at it because recon has already been taken care of, is not one I am likely to take. It's still terra incognito as far as I am concerned. The more I regard my little polygons as little humans, the MORE likely I am to choose the most economical (in terms of casualties) approach to an objective. I want to know the enemy disposition as accurately as possible while concealing my own for as long as possible- then strike with overwhelming force at the right time and place. 5-10 minutes of advance work is usually more than enough to establish this and is not unreasonable in the context of the above QB. The clock is ticking for both sides, so it's not as though I'm waiting to rush the VLs in the last 3 turns (I am probably more guilty of advancing too soon rather than too late). Destruction of the enemy force is still what the war's about and I can't do that without knowing what and where he is. I reject the idea that "scouting" as used in the topic of this thread is gamey, unless conducted by inappropriate units (crews, bazookas, etc.), and even then I will just deal with it rather than squealing. No attack here on anyone else's style of play, just a defense of what I perceive to be both doctrine and common sense.

Hey... whatever happened to this? With TCP/IP imminent, we're gonna need more left-coasters to kill in our own time zone. Foobar, you wretch, I'm in northern SD county right now, though headed back north this afternoon (I hope). I am going to try and recon that US armored museum in LA on the way back... http://hometown.aol.com/tankland/museum.htm

LOL. I originally had a Loc-tite reference in there but edited it out, brevity being the soul of wit. But witlessness kind of works for you.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Whizkid: Ah well,my mother told me that there would be days like this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Damn. She told ME she wouldn't conceive. Well, I clean up my own messes, so piss off. These are taunting waters and you're drowning- imagine, bringing up yo mamma first, in a 4000-post flamefest. What amateurs the tauntonasiums are turning out these days! The D&D reference dates you, though stupidity is timeless, as witnessed by your attempting to shame volunteer members of something called a Cesspool. I mean, piece it together, man, you could not be more screwed if your forehead was drilled, tapped, and chamfered. [This message has been edited by Mark IV in order to heap even more abuse on this hapless and misguided soul, who feels a good scolding is what we need, when what we crave is the example of a spontaneous self-immolation] [This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 11-03-2000).]

'Tis often a fine line between "scouting" and an "infantry screen". Oh well, if everyone plays the same way this would get boring quickly, which it hasn't. I no longer listen to board arguments about gaminess. I like historical OOBs, but I think most so-called gamey tactics have their own unique consequences, and I refuse to worry about some nebulous authorities in the subjective sky. I wish my enemies would purchase expensive platoons of snipers. This is why they make artillery, to blow up expensive soft things. There is no need to scout against Germanboy, by the way, just follow the artilery back to its source.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra: Germanboy is about as English as Falco. He can speak the language, but there's something lost in the translation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, many of his posts appear to be lip-synched. He probably has a radio set under a trapdoor in his closet. I mentioned to the Paranoid Armenian at work that my Japanese GF really enjoys driving up the central California coast. He replied, "You fool, she's probably making drawings of our defenses!". You can't be too careful.

Originally posted by Dschugaschwili: I think having only flags in the rear of the players or having no flags at all might turn into a very boring meeting engagement if both players decide to try to ambush the other player if he tries to get to their own flags. That's where the clock comes in. If both players give an ambush and nobody comes, pretty soon they'll have to get moving before the time runs out. This might lead to an even more violent clash. In some ways the advantage might be with he who strikes first- inflicting some quick damage and retiring would force the now numerically-weakened enemy to go after him. On the other hand, having about half of the flags' point values in the middle of the map and a quarter each at both rear areas might make an interesting battle by forcing the players to advance, but not in an all-or-nothing race to the center. Yes, but the rear flags are kind of a wash, so it's back to grabbing the middle for the decisive edge. The incentive to press on is nice, but most battles for the middle leave both sides pretty beaten up, and he who has the middle flag has pretty much cinched it. I haven't tried making one with no flags at all, but perhaps I'll try... the whole map is the VL.

Panther. You didn't ask for favorites, just the best all around, and I think that's it. There are bigger and more heavily armored tanks but they're not much good if they can't cross a bridge, spend half their time bogged, can't defend against infantry, or need to turn the whole vehicle to face a new threat. Gotta have enough MGs to keep the squishies at bay. Need top cover for the crew and to keep the nasty mortars out. Need enough gun and enough armor to play with the big boys. Panther.

Originally posted by Pillar: Surely you realise that the key to the destruction of any enemy force is in the terrain. One of them, anyway. You seem to acknowledge this in the second half of your post, so why no "complicated" terrain analysis? I mean no complicated analysis by the AI for victory assessment purposes. I don't want Charles sitting around writing algorithms that evaluate each clump of trees or rise in the ground for its victory value, nor would I enjoy the squeals of anguish on this board if someone lost because a mound was assessed as a hillock rather than a height, or was deemed non-critical by some analysis software. Of course the player is expected to analyze and use terrain. The AI should just count up the bodies. If you hold the key terrain, you need not be offensive.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer: gotta say it.. using snipers as scouts is a bit... GAMEY?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They're not snipers, they're sharpshooters. Guys with guns. Guys with guns pull scout duty when asked. It's expensive, but it's not gamey. I sure wouldn't want my Vet or Crack sharpshooter out there scouting... but if the scenario dealt me a Reg and I didn't have another plan in mind, I might. Besides, sharpshooters "scout" on the defensive just by hanging out in a good vantage point.

Might be simpler to have no flags, no complicated terrain assessments, and just assess victory based on destruction of enemy forces. Find Them and Kill Them. Cleanse the whole map of the enemy or die trying. Terrain is valuable only to the extent that it contributes to the destruction of the enemy or prevents your own.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: I think they should just lock down any thread started by you on general principle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Don't be absurd. I would never consider starting a thread on general principle.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rune: then you should try my modified Chance Encounter. Should try it as the Amis, and let me know if you are interested.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Tell me it's got (an even slightly) different OOB and yer on (back this weekend).

I would like to applaud Matt for padlocking my thread "Just a Thought..." and question why it took so long. Sometimes the lock is paradoxically a sweet release, the longed-for round in the neck that stops the unbearable torture... It's a public board, but privately owned and maintained, for the purpose of discussing CM. There's a lot of bloody foolishness from time to time and it's fun while it lasts (sometimes) but so many threads just go over old ground, or no ground at all, that some weeding is appropriate. Often threads are locked because they are duplicates of other "live" threads on the same topic. And the CM community is so chummy that some feel compelled to post topics on current events and opinions that have nothing to do with the game, and it makes sense to shut 'em down after a bit. To their credit BTS has suffered many lengthy threads which have been harshly (and unfairly) critical of them, often long past the point where anything other than flames result. It's now pretty easy to spot when topics or threads are heading south and I'm glad they're putting on the clamps. Looks bad when newbies or prospective buyers show up.