Mark IV

Well, there is certainly no guarantee that an AP will round will penetrate anything it happens to strike. But since you wondered "if an MMG or even HMG can {penetrate an HT}, then so should other small arms fire", I think the presence of AP in any MG load explains some qualitative difference between it and regular rifle fire. There is a quantitative difference as well- high ROF weapons are hitting the same general area repeatedly, so that every rupture, seam break, and rivet pop is capitalized on by the next round, to wear through the armor. (I'm not talking about .50s anywhere in this post). If the frontal armor on a German HT is 15mm sloped, it is probably pretty resistant in most places to .30 ammo. But there are slits and weak spots, anything can be worn down with repeated hits, and most of an HT isn't frontal or sloped or 15mm. 8mm of steel isn't really armor at all, just some shrapnel cover. With 0 degree slope an MG should make swiss cheese out of it. I'm sure ScoutPL can confirm that even our old M113 APC is vulnerable to sustained MG fire. So if HTs get taken out 100% by MG fire at 300m, which they don't in my CM experience, that would be bad. But if it happens a "fair amount", whatever that is, I wouldn't be surprised. Personally I equate the things with bicycles and horses, and never purchase them on my own; they are expensive bullet magnets best left out of direct fire. I'm sure there is some disagreement with this....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Goanna lifted his chador and hissed coyly: Welcome to the Fatal Shore lads...blahblah interminable travelogue filled with lies about uninteresting places...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Right. Here's the truth, lads. I have been to Australia. There are no kangaroos, which are merely cartoon characters. I was in Sydney, Melbourne, and Ballarat and never saw a single one. Next, Australia is an island. Remember that "sub-continent" is a marketing term used by travel agents. An island is an island and any stout American youth could chuck a rock over the whole thing. Australia has only one significant resource: breasts. You read that right, men. From the breast mines of Bendigo to the breast fields at Wollongong, and the famed breast coasts of Tasmania, Australia has been blessed in a special way. In a land where the men consider one another "mates" this is very good news. Like shooting fish in a barrel. the actual quote is "He who was born to hang will never drown", but in Rob/1's case we can always hope can't we? Another error. The actual actual quote is the theme of the saloon "Dick's Last Resort" in San Antonio and other fine American cities which you may verify at http://www.dickslastresort.com/ . Anyway, drown, hang, what's the difference if it ends well. [This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 11-28-2000).]

I got to hold, but not shoot (we were in a living room), a Barrett once. An amazing weapon, with a buffer spring like something on a garage door. It was outfitted with a Zeiss scope with range-finding reticle and was a true dream rifle. It is definitely not meant to be fired offhand. The gentleman had one of the most spectacular collections I've ever seen, truly the best of everything, and had used the Barrett to take an elk in Colorado at 800+ yards (and no they don't explode or anything, they just get a half-inch hole right through 'em). There are also some very insane gentlemen who build custom bolt-action .50 BMGs. They can have them. [This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 11-28-2000).]

Did someone say "armor piercing"? The M2 .30-06 ammo series came in at least 4 flavors. The Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30, M2 was the standard load for the M1 rifle. The M2, the Cartridge, Armor Piercing, Caliber .30, M2 was completely interchangeable with the standard ball ammo, but was meant for MGs and BARs. They had a black tip, steel core, had a slightly heavier bullet and some additional recoil. Even with a lower muzzle velocity they developed over 100 ft/lbs more pressure than the standard load, with a less deformable slug. There was also the M25 Tracer round, and an armor piercing incendiary round called, err, something else. The Germans also had AP as well as tracer ammo in the 7.92mm rifle/MG caliber. Since AP costs more and is overkill against human targets, they were not generally issued to rifle infantry, though the rounds were interchangeable in emergencies. The load for MGs seems to have varied quite a bit but the presence of the AP ammo loads is why HTs need to park at a safe distance from pedestrians with MGs.

Rob/1: I have been uncharacteristically kind to you, meaning I have pretended you don't exist. I have done this for the sole reason that you seem to annoy Minimus. I consider that a good enough reason for anyone to be born, even if they don't display much personal development beyond that. Yet you have now chosen to assail the Mutha Beautiful Thread in at least 4 different threads, possibly more, but I don't wish to tax the accounting capabilities of anyone born without an opposible thumb. Let's talk tactics. All your life you have been outwitted by hamsters, table lamps, and most assuredly keyboards. Yet you suddenly decide to launch a frontal assault on the collectively most vicious and sadistic group of posters and digital killers on this or any other board? Are you... no, don't answer that. Rob/1, (may I call you Rob/ ?) there is clearly no point in threatening your self-esteem; in the words of the saloon, you can't kill a man born to hang. But if you don't want to be hounded into a quivering puddle of roadkill you will FORGET THE PENG THREAD EVER EXISTED, AND PRY THE CAPLOCK KEY OFF YOUR KEYBOARD WHILE YOU'RE AT IT. Also, chip that Spell Check button off your screen. Your manufacturer recommends a cold chisel and a mallet.

I suppose all our posts have to be bloody metric now, and scroll down the wrong side of the page. I cannot leave you dolts for an hour. I take time out of my busy schedule to deliver a serial smiting to no less than 5 of you nardless buggers, and come back to find the 'pool oznapped and whirling clockwise down the drain instead of rightways. Or whatever. I don't do drains. The last time I left you got the thing closed, too. May I ask what the lawyer contingent here is FOR? Is there NO ONE in charge? MACE??!! A mere billabong of a thread thus far, and yours is a weighty responsibility now. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say that I know you are unequal to this, but so was the last fella and he muddled through. Afterthought: The non-entity Mikester is completely to blame for this. STONE HIM!

Beatcha. Course you've done it the hard way, without the Cesspool traffic to keep the numbers up. Geez, if I had to make sense in every post I'd still be in the double-digit range (or would I...hmmm). You have all the makings of a fine Cesspudlian. Love your homepage. Now quit trying to kill my thread.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer: Please, how about a challenge lads?! I can only take killing folks so much!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just whom are you killing? I checked and everybody's fine, and rather bored. My Elefant crews are doing scheduled maintenance to pass the time, and I cancelled the air strike to free them up for sections of the front faced with real challenges. I may start withdrawing units from the map, as it is embarrasing to have all this firepower to deal with NOTHING.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by machineman: It seems to me so far that what they were going for was more a replacement for an anti-tank gun, not a replacement for the Panzershreck.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't think anyone was trying to replace the Panzerschreck... a lot of late war development was driven by shortages of materials, including gunpowder. So replacing or supplementing the traditional AT gun made sense. The 'schreck itself was very successful, and aside from efforts to improve it, its future was pretty secure. I just tried a scenario defending an Assault from the AI, with 4 Puppchens and one Pak. I gave the attacker a 25% advantage to make sure there would be lots of targets. AI lined up a huge assortment of British armor and advanced. The Veteran Puppchen crews began to engage about 550m on their own. While I was impressed with their rate of fire, this non-scientific experiment resulted in 3 dead tanks and 4 dead Puppchen. They should have been held until a closer engagement range, but they were Vets so I let them pick... one problem is that they insist on targeting infantry as soon as they lose sight of tanks. They have their place in a combined arms defense, but are certainly not ueberweapons. They missed a lot.

Weeks cites Hogg as a source in the bibliography, and individual statements are not footnoted. Thus I report only on what Weeks has published, not necessarily on the facts themselves: He uses the umlaut in "Puppchen", liberally and consistently. He says "[The "puppchen"] was meant as an improved and more effective version of the Panzerschreck rocket-launcher... It fired a special version of the Panzerschreck bomb which had a small cartridge case fitted over the tail fins." I unintentionally misrepresented Weeks' position by referring to H 63 as a "version" of the Puppchen. It was actually intended as a replacement for it. He described the high-low pressure system in some detail. I believe that the Puppchen and the H 63 are related to each other, in that H 63 features greatly reduced recoil over a conventional gun, and uses a smooth-bore tube to launch a hollow charge. The mechanics of achieving those goals were different, but the principle (near recoilless operation in a lightweight platform) appear similar.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GriffinCheng+: Is Thompson M1A1 submg the same class as MP44?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nope. It fired a pistol cartridge (.45 ACP) instead of an intermediate rifle cartridge. You said it yourself ("submg"), it is a sub-machine gun. MP44 is an assault rifle, with longer range performance and much better stability on the target.

A busy day full of hate and killing here at the IV-tress of Doom. Pawbroon has hurled himself on my bayonets, with his customary elan, in a grim little capture-the-flag rush, in night and fog. He is now leaving as fast as he arrived, though it has only begun. A clanking thing exploded. F. Babra meets the Reaper by arty... but unfortunately we were holding hands at the time. All of our shells fell on all of our troops. Everybody dies. I love this game. His armor is squatting to peepee where it is safe, away from my sabre-toothed panzers. Peter the Shepherd has reappeared with a turn in which little happens. He is trying to shuffle his FOs forward without my knowing it. I will be totally surprised when an Allied attack is preceeded by a sh*tload of artillery. Who'd a thunk it. Germanboy died a lot then and is dying some more now. Into the woodchipper they go (to coin a phrase). Hakko Ichiu is partially correct. Judges do look silly in their robes... but that was about it. He will get a cease-fire when Gore gets nominated, which at the rate this game has been going could actually happen, given the Dems will be better at rigging elections 4 years hence. To which tank thingie were you referring? The one blowing your library building to hell, or the one sighting in on your TD in its mud wallow, even now? I still say this one has a lot in common with this election... and we are seeing the presidential equivalent of a gamey flag rush, aren't we? Some non-poolers are dying quite a bit as well. A busy day, indeed.

Shortages of war materials and conflicts for production capacity would also weigh heavily in favor of the Panzerschreck over the Püppchen. Look at the materials and resources in one of each... for an increase of 100m or so in performance, not worth it. John Weeks, sometimes collaborator with Hogg, also says in "Men Against Tanks" that Püppchen was a development of the Panzerschreck (he may be using Hogg as his source, though). He states: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It was hoped that the velocity would go up enough to increase the effective range to 700m, but this was not realized and 300-400m would be more realistic, with most actions taking place at much less than that. The Püppchen was not made in large numbers. A few were used in France in 1944 where they were not particularly good and it is coubtful if they ever enjoyed the confidence of the German soldier.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> He also mentions attempts to increase the Panzerschreck's dimensions to 100mm (a failure due to weight and dimension increase), and an improved version of the Püppchen called PWK 8 H 63, which showed great promise (good at 600-700m), but which probably never "knocked out so much as one tank" due to its late introduction.

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/001950.html http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/006442.html It does seem to show up rather late in the game. And the Germans appear to have found the Panzerschreck a better return on investment. Lots of good discussion in those threads.

Wait for CM2. It's going to model the whole Russian front, and I'll bet BTS thought of that (there has been a good deal of discussion about this already). You might want to ease up on that cap-lock, we can hear you just fine.

I keep all the files, numbered consecutively, at least until the battle is over (then I usually forget and keep 'em anyway). They are useful for tracking whose turn it is when real life intervenes for a few days, or an opponent's email barfs, or his (or my) brain just goes to sleep. Files do get corrupted. Utilities like One-Click use that system for tracking. I can go back and review a situation after a few days lag. There are some cool and instructional moments and situations to revisit, that would never occur to me to simulate on my own. Plus, I keep thinking, wouldn't it be cool... ...drum roll... ...if you could save all your turns into one continuous movie? (Rim shot).

Some post scripts, since you slackers are about to let this drop off the front page: Lorak! (What a great name to shout- makes you want to slam your mug on an oaken table). The frigging wave file that goes WITH your outstanding graphic is bigger than the Library of Congress! I loathe MIDI... but you can find passable brass fanfares in the 40K range, fergawdsakes. Thing never did finish loading. I think it competes with your lightning graphic. Anyway it sucks, thanks for the effort. Harv: You're getting the wrong impression of our little group. You've been noticed, yet somehow escaped the mandatory rites of passage. This is because Pawbroom was checking IDs at the door, and he doesn't happen to speak any languages. You are no more welcome here than anyone else, which is to say, not at all. You may think I was being civil to Hiram, above, but I only felt sorry for someone who thinks "Add to Favorites" means a dash of nutmeg in mummy's pecan pie recipe. So you're BAD enough to play the dreaded Germanboy? And that means you can just waltz in here with your coffee cup (neat trick that) and wonder how's things up Peng street? Well, Mr. Invisible Rabbit, any of our fully-endowed members (if you catch my drift) would slit your belly and leave you for hog bait 'fore you could say "eviscerate". As though you could. You may be interested to know that many of our current luminaries (a word begging an antonym) once happened to be newish. They still suck. There was a smarty fella named Meeks once... now he's feeding polar bears. You want some o' that? You think I'm kidding? Ask around. PS: Gboy cowering in his foxhole for 5 turns sounds like you're walking backwards in a horror movie. Look up.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hiram Sedai: What's the link for Lorak's cesspool website?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://www.geocities.com/lrmcgarvey/cesspool.html you pathetic scatterbrain. And I insist that anyone who hasn't been there for a while go at once, and admire the incredibly relevant opening graphic. Lorak! You made me laugh. I hate that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Compassion: {The greaseguns} were more dangerous to him than to anyone he might be pointing them at.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They weren't very dangerous at all. They are so simple in design and operation that they are one of the safest possible automatic weapons (to the shooter). And the design and construction are such that only a very stupid, slow, large, and/or close enemy is seriously endangered by one. So if you bail from a smoked AFV and remember to take it with you, and then find a lame elephant in your pyjamas who is also a registered voter in Dade county, it's just the ticket. (How he got in Dade county, I'll never know...). Otherwise they are inexpensive noisemakers which provide a sense of security to vehicle crews. It would be a good thing to have under your cot in a forward area... but who gets cots in forward areas? There is really nothing that the M3 does, which is not better served by some other weapon. IMO. Pity the bastards that had to jump with them.

Bren was .303 with a 30-round box mag. BAR was not an assault rifle in the currently accepted use of the term- the MP44 was the first. Both BAR and Bren used the same ammo as the regular infantry rifle, which was a big advantage. But then, the MG42 used the same ammo as the Mauser, showing you needn't necessarily sacrifice performance to achieve interchangeability in an LMG. However, the originally-stated intent of the BAR was "similar" to the concept behind an assault rifle- the ability of a highly portable weapon to lay down suppressive fire to cover the advance of the rifle-armed infantry. You still needed other guys to carry extra ammo. 20 rounds goes in a hurry and separate mags weigh a lot. It wasn't crew-served but one soldier couldn't carry more than a few minutes worth of ammo at normal battle rates of expenditure. The stupid idea wasn't Browning's (the design was very good, like pretty much all of Browning's), but that of those who thought no-man's land was sauntering country. Who knew? Pressed into WWII, it did a pretty good job (we used it again in Korea), but it always was sort of an aberration. Better than a poke in the eye, but not what you would have designed if you had the luxury of starting from scratch... or just copying the MG42 (which we did, in the still-current M60).

Both M1 Garand and the BAR (along with the Springfield '03 bolt action) fire the .30-06. The M14, on the other hand, fires the 7.62 NATO round. 7.62mm = .30 caliber. However, the load behind the slug (usually but not always reflected by the case length), and the weight of the slug, determine its power. .30-06 was adopted by the US Army in 1906, hence the name, which distinguishes it from the 7.62 NATO, the later, somewhat lighter standard NATO round (adopted in the 50s) still in use. To further clarify matters , the US sporting designation for the 7.62 NATO is .308 Winchester. They are the same bullet. So .30-06 and the .308 have the same bullet diameter, but the .30-06 is the more powerful round. Stand one against the other, and you will see that the .30-06 is longer and holds more powder. The 7.62x39mm Soviet, which is very similar to the 8mm (or 7.92 kurz), is ALSO .30 caliber in diameter (as indicated by the 7.62) but has a much shorter case (and less powder) than either the .30-06 or the 7.62 NATO. The 39 indicates the case length in mm. Because it is shorter, it holds less powder, making it an intermediate cartridge. It is still a baa-ad little bullet, much more powerful than a military pistol cartridge, but with less recoil than the big rifles, which facilitates full-auto operation in short bursts. It was based on the first of the intermediate assault-rifle type, the German 8mm kurz, which had a slightly larger diameter (8mm is nominal, actual is 7.92mm, which is about .315 caliber). Semi-autos fire as fast as you can pull the trigger, but you have to pull the trigger each time. Full-auto means you can hold the trigger down and it will keep firing. This is hard on barrels, shooters, and accuracy, so it is usually done in short bursts (now they have 2 or 3 round burst capability built in to military weapons). Selective fire means you have a switch to go from semi to full. So M1 was semi-auto (only), .30-06. BAR was full-auto .30-06 (an MG, though an LMG because of the limited magazine capacity and no tripod). There was a select-fire option on some versions. MP44 (or MP43, or StG43) was select fire, either semi or full, and fired the 8mm kurz (or "short"). M14, like the German G3, fired the 7.62mm NATO, and both are selective fire. Technically the BAR had less recoil than an M1 shot for shot, since the weight of the weapon is a big factor in the amount of felt recoil, and the BAR was much heavier. It was in the auto mode that it became a bear, because you got slammed multiple (500, theoretically, but you ran out after 20) times per second.

Kitty, I've put the .30-06 with standard loads through a roughly 12" diameter hardwood. It'll go through quite a bit more pine. No science here, just my observations. I don't have an MP44, to my intense chagrin, but I have things which fire the 7.62x39 Soviet which is ballistically almost identical to the "8mm kurz", and have killed deer with both. No comparison in hitting power OR recoil. BAR was a very advanced mechanical design for its day, which happened to be WWI. The fact that they were the US squad LMG 30 years later says more about our preparedness for war than it does about the BAR. It was a very sound design, advanced for its day, and worked well if you kept it clean. Actually, the intended role of the BAR may have been as an "assault rifle". The intent was to advance at a walking pace across no man's land firing it from the hip, with sling support. This design criteria, regardless of how stupid, explains the configuration. By WWII it was kind of an answer to a question no one was asking, but we needed some kind of LMG in a hurry. It was not an ideal LMG or SAW for the many excellent reasons cited above, but you use what you got.

Mark IV has problems consolidating around Wyler, and that pesky platoon of mine ...which began as a company... that is busy killing the backbone of his troops The troops I was issued in this scenario do not HAVE backbones. Another lie. So far his tactics have consisted of human wave assaults More like the gentle lapping of a pond against its banks, which has nonetheless been adequate to cast the flotsam of your forces upon the shore of defeat, to labor a metaphor. You have good troops- Veteran paras, in fact- but bereft of leadership. They must be very bitter. executed with all the charme and grace of a drunken old lecher proposing to a two-penny whore. That girl never meant a thing to me. We were simply haggling over the price. She misunderstood my accent. Then again, I could just be an anti-american liar, and all this is not true. So, you DO have a conscience. An uneasy one, no doubt, considering what you've led your men into. Anti-americanism could indeed explain your tactical decisions as an American commander- you are killing us from within. Geier: Waiting for 1.1 is clearly the right thing to do. I am astounded that you were able to reach this conclusion on your own, and suspect you have been coached. Expect your setup as soon as I can download the thing. Goanna: Still posting from the safety of a non-CM environment, I see. Not to worry- we've taken up a collection and sent you a package filled with surveillance gear, pornography, grain alcohol, and pork rinds, addressed to your name, CIA section chief. I'm sure the local authorities will get the joke.

I heartily endorse this little program, and would like to recommend it to several of my opponents (you know who you are). Adding the .zip utility made it perfect! Thanks, Mr. K!

Try it the other way around... watch that ubermodelled Sherman turret come 'round to find Herr Schreck. Just tried it- a moving plain-vanilla M4 Vet broke off plastering a schreckster long enough to wingshoot a moving PSW234/1 at 100m+, cruising in the opposite direction, then swiveled back to the 'schreck and destroyed his building. Talk about target acquisition. Shermans shine up close.