Kraut

Since most of you *probably* don't visit any CC boards, i'm gonna post this retirement speech from a marine colonel here. It's very interesting and pretty much shows in what pityful state our armed forces are in (meaning the US forces of course ). Subject: Retirement Speech The following is the retirement address of Marine Col Wayne Shaw who retired recently from Quantico after more than 28 years of service. A Farewell to the Corps Colonel Wayne Shaw, USMC, Quantico, Virginia In recent years I’ve heard many Marines on the occasion of retirements, farewells, promotions and changes of command refer to the “fun” they’ve had in the Marine Corps. “I loved every day of it and had a lot of fun” has been voiced far too often. Their definition of “fun” must be radically different from mine. Since first signing my name on the dotted line 28 ½ years ago I have had very little fun. Devoting my entire physical and mental energies training to kill the young men of some other country was not fun. Worrying about how many of my own men might die or return home maimed was not fun. Knowing that we did not have the money or time to train as best we should have, was not fun either. It was no fun to be separated from my wife for months on end, nor was it fun to freeze at night in snow and rain and mud. It was not much fun to miss my father’s funeral because my Battalion Commander was convinced our peacetime training deployment just couldn’t succeed without me. Missing countless school and athletic events my sons very much wanted me to see was not much fun either. Not being at my son’s high school graduation wasn’t fun. Somehow it didn’t seem like fun when the movers showed up with day laborers from the street corner and the destroyed personal effects were predictable from folks who couldn’t hold a job. The lost and damaged items, often irreplaceable family heirlooms weren’t much fun to try to “replace” for pennies on the dollar. There wasn’t much fun for a Colonel with a family of four to live in a 1200 sq. ft apartment with one bathroom that no welfare family would have moved into. It was not much fun to watch the downsizing of the services after Desert Storm as we handed out pink slips to men who risked their lives just weeks before. It has not been much fun to watch mid-grade officers and senior Staff NCO’s, after living frugal lives and investing money where they could, realize that they cannot afford to send their sons and daughters to college. Nor do I consider it much fun to reflect on the fact that our medical system is simply broken. It is not much fun to watch my Marines board helicopters that are just too old and train with gear that just isn’t what it should be anymore. It is not much fun to receive the advanced copies of promotion results and call those who have been passed over for promotion. It just wasn’t much fun to watch the infrastructure at our bases and stations sink deeper into the abyss because funding wasn’t provided for the latest “crisis.” It just wasn’t much fun to discharge good Marines for being a few pounds overweight and have to reenlist Marines who were HIV positive and not world-wide deployable. It sure wasn’t much fun to look at the dead Marines in the wake of the Beirut bombing and Mogadishu fiascoes and ask yourself what in the hell we were doing there. I could go on and on. There hasn’t been much fun in a career that spans a quarter century of frustration, sacrifice and work. So, why did you serve you might ask? Let me answer that : I joined the service out of a profound sense of patriotism. As the son of a career Air Force Senior NCO I grew up on military bases often within minutes flying time from Soviet airfields in East Germany. I remember the Cuban Missile crisis, the construction of the Berlin Wall, the nuclear attack drills in school and was not many miles away when Soviet Tanks crushed the aspirations of citizens in Czechoslovakia. To me there was never any doubt that our great Republic and the last best hope of free people needed to prevail in this ultimate contest. I knew I had to serve. When our nation was in turmoil over our involvement in Vietnam I knew that we were right in the macro strategic sense and in the moral sense, even if in the execution we may have been flawed. I still believe to this day that we did the right thing. Many of our elites in the nation today continue to justify their opposition in spite of all evidence that shows they were wrong and their motives either naive or worse. This nation needed to survive and I was going to join others like me to ensure it did. We joined long before anyone had ever referred to service in the infantry units of the Marine Corps as an “opportunity.” We knew the pay was lousy, the work hard and the rewards would be few. We had a cause, we knew we were right and we were willing when others were not. Even without a direct threat to our Nation, many still join and serve for patriotic reasons. I joined the Marines out of a sense of adventure. I expected to go to foreign countries and do challenging things. I expected that, should I stick around, my responsibilities would grow as would my rewards. It was exciting to be given missions and great Marines to be responsible for. Finally, I joined for the camaraderie. I expected to lead good men and be lead by good men. Marines who would speak frankly and freely, follow orders once the decision was made and who would place the success of the mission above all else. Marines who would be willing to sacrifice for this great nation. These were men I could trust with anything and they could trust me. It was the camaraderie that sustained me when the adventure had faded and the patriotism was tested. I was a Marine for all of these years because it was necessary, because it was rewarding, because our nation needed individuals like us and because I liked and admired the Marines I served with.....but it sure wasn’t fun. I am leaving active service soon and am filled with some real concerns for the future of our Marine Corps and even more so for the other services. I have two sons who are on the path to becoming Marine Officers themselves and I am concerned about their future and that of their fellow Marines, sailors, airmen and soldiers. We in the Corps have the least of the problems but will not be able to survive in a sick DOD. We have gone from a draft motivated force to an all volunteer force to the current professional force without the senior leadership being fully aware of the implications. Some of our ills can be traced to the fact that our senior leadership doesn’t understand the modern Marine or service member. I can tell you that the 18 year old who walks through our door is a far different individual with different motivations than those just ten years ago. Let me generalize for a moment. The young men from the middle class in the suburbs come in to “Rambo” for a while. He has a home to return to if need be and Mom has left his room unchanged. In the back of his mind he has some thoughts of a career if he likes it or it is rewarding. The minorities and females are looking for some skills training but also have considered a career if “things work out.” They have come to serve their country but only in a very indirect way. They have not joined for the veterans benefits because those have been truncated to the point where they are useless. No matter what they do, there is no way it will pay for college and the old VA home loan is not competitive either. There are no real veteran’s benefits anymore..... It is that simple, and our senior leadership has their head in the sand if they think otherwise. As they progress through their initial enlistment’s that are four years or more now, many conclude that they will not be competitive enough to make it a 20 year career or don’t want to endure the sacrifices required. At that point they decide that it is time to get on with the rest of their lives and the result is the high first term attrition we currently have to deal with. The thought of a less than honorable discharge holds no fear whatsoever for most. It is a paper tiger. Twenty years ago an individual could serve two years and walk away with a very attractive amount of Veterans benefits that could not be matched by any other sector or business in the country. We have even seen those who serve long enough lose benefits as we stamped from weaker program to weaker program. This must be reversed. We need a viable and competitive GI Bill that is grandfathered when you enter the service, is predicated on an honorable discharge and has increasing benefits for longer service so we can fill the mid grade ranks with quality people. We must do this to stop the hemorrhage of first term attrition and to reestablish good faith and fairness. It will allow us to reenlist a few more and enlist a few less. The modern service member is well read and informed. He knows more about strategy, diplomacy and current events that Captains knew when I first joined. He reads national newspapers and professional journals and is tuned into CNN. Gone are the days of the PFC who sat in Butzbach in the Fulda Gap or Camp Schwab on Okinawa and scanned the Stars and Stripes sports page and listened to AFN. Yet our senior leadership continue to treat him like a moron from the hinterland who wouldn’t understand what goes on. He is in the service because he wants to be and not because he can’t get a job in the steel mill. Three hots and a cot are not what he is here for. The Grunts and other combat arms guys aren’t here for the “training and skills” either. He is remarkably well disciplined in that he does what he is told to do even though he knows it is stupid. He is very stoic, but not blind. Yet I see senior leaders all of the time who pile more on. One should remind them that their first platoon in 1968 would have told them to stick it where the sun doesn’t shine. These new Warriors only think it.......He is well aware of the moral cowardice of his seniors and their habit of taking the easy way out that results in more pain and work for their subordinates. This must be reversed. The senior leadership must have the morale courage to stop the misuse and abuse of the current force. The force is too small, stretched too thin and too poorly funded. These deficiencies are made up on the backs of the Marines, sailors, airmen and soldiers. The troops are the best we’ve ever had and that is no reason to drive them into the dirt. Our equipment and infrastructure is shot. There is no other way to put it. We must reinvest immediately and not just on the big ticket items like the F-22. That is the equivalent of buying a new sofa when the roof leaks and the termites are wrecking the structure. Finally let me spend a minute talking about camaraderie and leadership. I stayed a Marine because I had great leaders early on. They were men of great character without preaching, men of courage without ragging, men of humor without rancor. They were men who believed in me and I in them. They encouraged me without being condescending. We were part of a team and they cared little for promotions, political correctness or who your father was. They were well educated renaissance men who were equally at home in the White House or visiting a sick Marine’s child in a trailer park. They could talk to a bar maid or a baroness with equal ease and make each feel like a lady. They didn’t much tolerate excuses or liars or those with too much ambition for promotion. Someone once told me that Priests do the Lord’s work and don’t plan to be the Pope. They were in touch with their Marines and supportive of their seniors. They voiced their opinions freely and without retribution from above. They probably drank too much and had an eye for beautiful women as long as they weren’t someone’s wife or a subordinate. You could trust them with your life, your wife or your wallet. Some of these great leaders were not my superiors --- some were my Marines. We need more like them at the senior levels of Government and military leadership today. It is indeed sad when senior defense officials and Generals say things on TV they themselves don’t believe and every service member knows they are lying. It is sad how out of touch with our society some of our Generals are. Ask some general you know these ten questions: 1. How much does a PFC. make per month? 2. How big is the gas tank on a Hummvee? 3. Who is your Congressman and who are your two Senators? 4 Name one band that your men listen to. 5. Name one book on the NY times best seller list. 6. Who won the last Superbowl? 7. What is the best selling car in America? 8. What is the WWF? 9. When did you last trust your subordinates enough to take ten days leave? 10. What is the leave balance of your most immediate subordinate? We all know they won’t get two right and therein lies the problem. We are in the midst of monumental leadership failure at the senior levels. Just recently Gen Shelton (CJCS) testified that he didn’t know we had a readiness problem or pay problems.... Can you imagine that level of isolation? We must fix our own leadership problems soon. Quality of life is paid lip service and everyone below the rank of Col. knows it. We need tough, realistic and challenging training. But we don’t need low pay, no medical benefits and ghetto housing. There is only so much our morality should allow us to ask of families. Isn’t it bad enough that we ask the service members to sacrifice their lives without asking their families to sacrifice their education and well being too? We put our troops on guilt trips when we tell them about how many died for this country and no hot water in housing is surely a small sacrifice to make. “Men have died and you have the guts to complain about lack of medical care for your kids?” The nation has been in an economic boom for damn near twenty years now, yet we expect folks in the military to live like lower middle class folks lived in the mid fifties. In 1974 a 2nd Lt. could by a Corvette for less than his annual salary. Today, you can’t buy a Corvette on a Major’s annual salary. I can give you 100 other examples...A NROTC midshipman on scholarship got $100 a month in 1975. He or she still gets $100 in 1999. No raise in 25 years? The QOL life piece must be fixed. The Force sees this as a truth teller and the truth is not good. I stayed a Marine despite the erosion of benefits, the sacrifices of my wife and children, the betrayal of our junior troops and the declining quality of life because of great leaders, and the threat to our way of life by a truly evil empire that no longer exists. I want men to stay in the future. We must reverse these trends. There will be a new “evil empire” eventually. Sacrifices will need to be made and perhaps many things cannot change but first and foremost we must fix our leadership problems. The rest will take care of itself. If we can only fix the leadership problem....Then, I still can’t promise you “fun” but I can promise you the reward and satisfaction of being able to look into the mirror for the rest of your life and being able to say: “I gave more to America than I ever took from America....and I am proud of it.” Semper Fi and God Bless you

Hey, i thought we were talking about the AI surrendering for you in a multi-player game. Now it's all about the AI surrendering for itself in a single-player game? Huh? MK

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn: Without it we could end up with stupid "hunt the single survivor for 10 turns" outcomes to games. That's a total waste of time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nah ... fionn, this would only happen if you're playing some loser who is scared he'll lose it precious "ladder ranking". If you play such people it's your own fault. A honest opponent would admit defeat and not make you chase down those vehicle crews or that paniced reserve squad. I just don't want an epic battle to be ended by the computer, when there could still be a few interesting turns played. Suppose i'm pretty much beeaten, yet i still have a sizeable for left to *at least* have a chance to pull out a minor defeat instead of a major defeat. I doubt my opponent would view this as lame "chase da monkey" playing. I think in that kind of situation, playing on would make the whole scenario much more interesting as a whole. MK

AHA! ... well, just went to that board and read a little. It seems like they found some "volunteers" to work on the game. Hmmm ... they should make all games "volunteer" work, so i don't have to pay another dime again in my life to play a game. As a matter of fact, why don't they make everything "volunteer" work? Free meals, free cars, free beer, free ... ahhh, the possibilities. Hey bloody guts ... don't worry about PanzerGlieder. He seems like the type who would want to press his morals and views on someone (if you don't apologize RIGHT NOW, you'll get your knee-caps shot off, your nuts roasted on an open fire, the IRS will come and take your house, dog, TV and computer, but leave your wife and kids to nag you all day long, and god will make you kiss his dirty, crusty feet for eternity. That is if you even get to heaven ... rofl) . If you wanna bitch about a game, even if it's free, hell, go ahead. I personally view it all as first class online entertainment Besides, if the makers of any game can't handle a little online bitch-o-rama they should find new jobs ... imagine if steve, charles and the others would have bailed on us at the first sign of trouble (anyone remember OSCAR? Now that was entertainment). MK

Free ... that makes no freakin sense. You can't make a livin' by developing a piece of software for months then give it away. I mean, as much as i would like to beleive it, it just doesn't make sense. There's gotta be some kind of hook here ... something ... just something ... MK ps. Hey, why can't CM be free too? ... rofl

You serious? Free? How are they gonna make money? Charge us for patches .. err, i mean "updates" ... ? MK

People ... the simple fact is that no matter how realistic a "feature" might be, it will suck big hairy buttox if that feature destroys good gameplay. So if the computer decided to surrender my forces for me, this would completely piss me off and probably ruin a good game. Basically, BTS, is there a "feature" that ends a battle for you (ie. surrenders) if your global morale is too low (i really havn't seen it in the beta demo)? If not, then i guess we're wasting out time here ... lol MK

Hmmm ... i wouldn't like an auto-surrender option in any game. That is one major reason i think the cc4 campaign sucks bigtime (next to the BG system, the sucky infantry and at least 1000 other reasons). Ok, so cc4 has a "force morale", same thing ... it just completely destroys a game if you are holding on with your very last men, hoping to inflict as many casualties on the enemy as possible, and the comp decides to end it. If this "feature" is tweaked enough that it only happens very rarely it could be acceptable, but then again, why even put it in? If you play someone who will fight on eventhough he only has a coupld men from a vehicle crew running around, then maybe you shouldn't play that person. So, forcing a battle to end is unnecessary and will cause more harm than good ... MK

"Wargamers, in their zeal to demonstrate their own knowledge and to engage in pissing contests with each other by berating every title that is released in order to display their expertise, have damn near killed this niche of gaming. " Now that's funny ... MK

d00dz j00 Kn0w CM r0x j00. WaReZ goNNa CraCk gaMeZ 'n MakE PhAt BuRnz ... CaUze FrEe s0uRze Be dA BoMb ... l8ter d00Dz MK - roflmao ps. For those who really don't get it ... it's a joke. Lighten up ... [This message has been edited by Kraut (edited 04-11-2000).]

Whew, that really scared me ... thanks for the good news MK

Hmmm ... you mean we can't use the second floor? Ack ... dead men or not, 'useless' or not, i would still like to be able to place my men in the second story of a building. MK

Bloody guts said: "They complain that the micromanagement tends to get boring and teadious, but I think that what makes CM great, is that you CAN control exactly what your men do." I love micromanagement, and i love to give my troops exact orders that they should carry out to the best of their abilities. However, from what i've seen of the CM demo, this aspect is lacking. As i mentioned months ago, i absolutely hated it when my MG's, zooks, schrecks etc, retargeted without my specific orders, even if their retargeting was a "better" move. So, i wouldn't say that CM allows you to micromanage at a very detailed scale. At least from what i have experienced in the old beta demo. MK

Hmmm ... i would rather see some russian mine-dog factories. Now that would be sweet. Kraut

So, how *do* you decide who is hit? I just can't stop picturing a bunch of six year-olds screaming and whining about who is dead and who is not ... MK

Fionn said: "The Villers Bocage battle (which starts with NO infantry) really shows you why tanks need infantry. If I'd had infantry I'd probably only have lost 1 of the Tigers I lost. Tanks are just WAY too blind in close terrain." Hmmm ... you sure? I mean, you don't need any infantry in cc3 and cc4, and cc3 *did* win wargame of the year from PCGamer ... are you sure you're not mistaken Fionn? Why do you even need infantry in a wargame? What role did they even play in ww2, or in any war for that matter?! All they were there for is to look good in propaganda-movies ... right? Infantry ... useless ... MK -

"But No! Sgt Wynn retargets and fires at a SMG squad! Albin is brewed up and the turn ends" One thing i really dislike about CM. I hope the final product will not "feature" such crazy behavior. If so, it could be just as frustrating as seeing your tanks spin around in circles (cc4 anyone?). MK

Just like with the two previous titles, atomic will take two steps foreward, and one huge step backward. They might improve the AI, but they'll surely put somthing into the game that will annoy the $hit out of people. Like infantry that die like flies ... hmmm, wait, that's already been a "feature" of the past two titles. Well, maybe they'll let you control a battleship ? Hey, think of how c00l that would be. D00dz, that would rox! ... lol MK

Soon, quake will be classified as a wargame. I mean, it has guns right? You can kill people in masses, right? (very important in a wargame, ey? Sorta like cc4 where the blood of the infantryman flows in streams) Why don't they just push it one step further and put deer hunter into the wargame genre?! Noone freakin' knows what kinda game that is anyways ... lol Anything that will "sell" thier crap ... MK ps. cc1 was a wargame, cc2 was too, cc3 sucked, and cc4 is a damn joke. Can't wait to see cc5 (sarcasm of course) pps. All IMHO of course ... [This message has been edited by Kraut (edited 02-17-2000).]

Ummmm ... what? You're still adding content to the game? I thought this thing was supposed to be done pretty soon ... MK

This is funny ... lol ... i'm with zamo. If a link were to magically appear infront of you, you wouldn't be able to resist. You would all DL it, check it out, then e-mail the battlefront people and say "i found the warezed version, here it is, i got it from this server, no go bust them ... " (just so you don't feel all too guilty ). I bet most of you have searched for warezed CM too ... common admit it. You can say "i was just looking to catch thieves ..." i'll believe you ... rofl Kraut <- will buy CM, if he likes the final demo

<marquee> Strider tells me this is a bad joke </marquee> <marquee> Strider sais, BTS is not a junior member ... post BOGUS?! </marquee> [This message has been edited by Kraut (edited 01-17-2000).]

Believe me titan, cc4 is really a bore. To someone who liked cc2 it is especially troublesome. The overall "feel" of the game leaves a lot to be desired. It just doesn't awake those adrenalin-filled moments i've enjoyed so many times in cc2. It's just a dud ... About infantry survivability, which for me is the core problem, well, i don't know what those people, who say infantry are fine, are smokin', but it must be something REALLY strong. No offense to the crackheads, but i honestly don't see how they can come to such conclusions. IF you can get the game and return it (like us americans), then you should probably check it out (unless you live on one of those sheep-farms in the middle of nowhere ), but if you can't get your money back, i would at least wait a few months until it's cheap AND there are some mods. MK

Ahhh ... here's a board where i can really let my dissapointment in cc4 come to light without being haggled. Especially by that mad bunny ... lol I'm one of those, who "rushed" out to get the game the moment i knew it was in stores (i contribute this eagerness to get my lazy ass off the couch partly to the fact that i havn't bought a game in about four months). I knew the battles would be shaky at best from the pityful demo, but i just needed to see the full package for myself. At first i was a *little* enthusiastic about the game, because there seemed to be a lot of stuff to explore and units/features to use (one thing i like about CM is all the different stuff to try, makes for good "early-game" fun). After playing two campaigns, one GE the other US and both about 15 battles each, against the AI i was bored, frustrated and found that i still wasn't used to those terrible german voices (i've had nightmares from them already, seriously). So i went online and played several games direct ip. I found those games to be equally boring. Infantry are useless, except for acting as "radar" for tanks. Infantry die at 300m from a M5 firing it's .30 cals and 37mm within seconds, while sneaking in dense forrest. MG's chop 'em up, eventhough they are inside stone houses. Zip zip zip, three men dead ... blech ! The game revolves around tanks. Tanks tanks tanks ... i found that all you had to do is mass your tanks, then rush them up a flank and hope that you will take the enemy out before he tankes you out. In at least three online game i played, i was taking severe losses while playing the smarter, slower and safer way. When i massed my remaining armor and rushed it up the enemies flank however, i won all games. No fun in that, since i've done this a million times in C&C Red Alert ... I feel atomic has now completely stepped over the line from no-mans land into the realm of the flashbang, mainsteam RTS game. It feels like playing AOE, C&C or starcraft with WW2 tanks, and men holding "authentic" weaponry ... MK

CC4 is terrible ... it's not even fun from a "gamey" aspect. MK