Bullethead

Actually, this very thing is one of the main reasons I was looking forward to getting the editor I even conned Fionn into believing I was doing it for a good CMMC cause instead of gratuitous carnage. I told him I'd pay very close attention to the results and use them to make arty CRTs for arty and air missions against player units not actually engaged in a PBEM battle. IE, you're BN is moving up to the front to attack next turn and the sky fills with jabos... Oh well, some people will believe anything ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman [This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 06-22-2000).]

Howdy- Made a scenario with some M36B1 TDs in it today and noticed an apparent error. In the game, the M36B1 appears as a standard M36, that is, the 90mm turret on the M10 TD hull. However, according to Fred Crimson in US Military Tracked Vehicles, pages 166-7, the M36B1 had the 90mm turret on a standard M4A3 medium tank hull instead of the M10 TD hull. There's even a photo of the prototype M36B1 in the book, with this nomenclature painted on the side of the turret, and it has a Sherman hull. This appears to be only a graphics problem. When I look at the stats of the M36B1 in CM, it shows hull armor as if the Sherman hull was really there, instead of the M10 hull. According to Crimson, the plain M36 was based on the M10A1 hull (Ford GAA V-8, same motor as M4A3). The M36B1 was essentially an M4A3 with the M36 turret, and the M36B2 was the M10 hull (twin GM diesels). ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

Something's wrong on your end because I'm not having this problem at all. I installed CM into its own directory but this is on a different drive than the default. So I don't think that by itself is the problem. When you save a scenario with the editor, it goes into the Saved Games folder. The docs say you then need to move it to the Scenarios folder. However, I have found this to be untrue. I just copied the scenario to the Scenarios folder, leaving it in the Saved Games folder. And now it shows up on the scenario selection list twice. So I think you have some other problem. Don't have a clue what it is tho ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I don't have CM right here (working) so I can't check out the specific scenario.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You couldn't anyway, it was an instant battle . <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1. Use only one flanking move. It sounds like your forces are a bit on the weak side for a three-pronged attack.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, once it became apparent that my left side was a dead end, I threw everything else onto the right. This included the platoon that was already over there, plus the 2 in the center, plus my mobile reserve (2 squads in my only 2 halftracks, the CO and zook on the back of an M5 Light--my only tank--and the other squad split and running ahead as faust and daisy chain detectors). The problem with this was that while the left side had almost no cover, the right side had too much. Couldn't bring up the vehicles except on a very exposed and dangerous route. Don't know if they had the firepower to really help anyway, but I lost the scout cars to mortars just making the 1st attempt. Then the grunts got shelled in the woods. Enemy observation was a big problem. I was attacking down their side of the hill so was very exposed. Sort of the reverse slope defense on a bigger scale. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2. Improve the timing. Your right flank move could do some serious harm, but only if the AI was surprised by it. That requires that the AI doesn't even see it before the fighting is really started on the left flank. And the defenders in the middle should not have LOF to the right flank.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The right flank platoon reached the bottom of the hill OK thanks to moving through the woods, and this was after the left side had been chewed up. But the Germans in the center could see the bottom of the hill on my right, thanks to being on a hill in the main village on the map. So when my right flank guys reached the bottom and ran into Germans there, the Germans in the center could shoot them up also, as well interdict moving stuff from the center to my right. Most of my grunts made it across and into the woods OK but vehicles had to not only cross but advance around the German end of the woods to help with the firefight. They couldn't make it. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>3. Exploitation with inf only is hard. Are they mechanized? If not, you might ne better off thinking "Shwerepunkt" (sp?) and just commit everything at once.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nope, I didn't have enough vehicles to transport even 1 complete platoon, plus the terrain really limited where I could use vehicles anyway. As to doing a human wave, that's not my style. I'm not out to win every battle, I'm out to win the war and go home and start the baby boom. Sure, maybe I could have swamped them with bodies in this case, but WHY? Just to say I won a scenario? That lacks both artistry and realism. I figure realistically the French CO would have done what I did--make a good try but then, upon discovering the ratio of forces (including enhancers for the terrain advantage of the Germans) and locating German strongpoints, pull back and get some help. Yup, this wasn't an operation, but I play as if it was. ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I believe it would be more of a disaster if your troops were hiding in a cellar during a bombardment in CM. As an attacker, I would love for the defender to be hiding in a cellar while my attack is getting underway<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, troops only hide in the cellars to avoid shelling. As soon as it stops, they run back to their foxholes and MG nests to repel any attack. This is why attacking troops try so hard to follow their arty onto the target very closely (close enough to take a few casualties from it themselves). They want to be in the other side's trenches before the enemy makes it back to them from the cellars. Or still in the cellars, actually. If the attackers can do this, then yup, it would be a disaster for the defenders. So if CM ever gets to including cellars and/or dugouts for troops to hide in during shelling, I'm sure such troops will be at quite a disadvantage if they're still there when the attackers arrive. ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

Sten said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Bullethead, that is spoiler info. Please edit it. I have replied to your post in a new thread called 'General battle feedback' in the CM-Scenario Talk forum. Come on over and we'll talk some more, k?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's not a spoiler because it was an instant battle. Nobody will ever have this exact same scenario. I posted it here because it seems this is the proper forum for feedback on general game features, such as the instant battle thing. But if you'd rather go into details elsewhere, I'll go look. Fionn said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hell, AT gun--- kill it using the 81mm FO<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, tried that. 2 problems, though, which I will explain again. 1. Guns were near the German map edge. 2. The only place with LOS to the guns was the crest and German side of an essentially bald ridge running across the left 1/2 of the map. And this whole area was in the guns' killzone as well as that of HMGs, on-map mortars, and German FOs. I had already discovered it was bad to send guys over the ridge to help the 1st platoon that triggered the ambush. Anything spotted on the crest and slope drew intense fire, and even trying to crawl over the skyline didn't help. So I wasn't going to put my FO up there to be killed, too. This ruled out observed fire on the ATGs. So I tried blind fire on the guns. Maybe I was just unlucky, but the scattered pattern this gave me produced no results. And due to the Germans being near the map edge, many of the shells simply landed off the map without hurting anything else. The right 1/2 of the map had cover for grunts in the form of a big patch of woods on the German side of the ridge, but this same cover prevented using vehicles in direct support. These had to move along axes under the same sort of observation and fire as on the left 1/2 of the map. Thus, an attempt to outflank the Germans on my left also bogged down due to the inability of my grunts to overcome the dug-in Germans on my right by themselves. ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

ROTFLMAO ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

I was in the arty for 8 years. I shot it at the badguys and got to observe the results. I also had it shot at me, both by badguys and goodguys. So I think I'm fairly qualified to pontificate on this subject. On the whole, I think CM's treatment of the power of explosions on exposed troops, soft-skinned vehicles, and buildings is quite accurate. Real arty (like 105mm and bigger) causes very nasty damage to exposed targets. And CM has it about the right effect (ie, much less) on covered targets, too, IMHO. I had a quibble in the beta demo about blast/shrapnel effects on hard targets but haven't been able to test this enough in the real game yet. One thing I do still have a quibble about, however, is the morale as opposed to lethality effects of shelling in CM. And this I think results in higher arty casualties than should be the case. Basically, troops in foxholes under shelling start out pretty safe, maybe the odd casualty or 2 but for the most part intact. But as the fire continues, their morale plummets. This is OK, too, except that eventually run away. They then lose their protection and get slaughtered. In real life, almost nobody tries to run under shelling, even if they are totally panicked. But CM apparently uses the same panic routine for all situations, from small arms to arty. I'd like to see this changed someday but I can live with it for now. The point, however, is that there's nothing wrong with the arty here--exposed troops SHOULD be mowed down like that. The problem is that the troops shoulnd't have exposed themselves. The other quibble I have is that your FOs can't specify how many rounds to shoot at a given target. IMHO, this is unrealistic. I think there should be a distinction between mortar and arty FOs, with mortars using the existing system and arty having to specify the number of rounds. But this is pretty minor, really. In general and in almost all specifics, however, CM's handling of arty is by far the best I've ever seen in a game. It coincides very well with my own experiences on both ends of the gun-target line so I am confident it's quite realistic. Like Jager7 said, CM is the 1st game to get arty right. ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>you mean....sinpers are in?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, they're called Sharpshooters. There was a lot of discussion about them towards the end of last year RE: how to use the German sharpshooter in the beta demo Riesburg scenario, if you care to search. But essentially, the best thing to do with them is put them in a good place and leave them alone. They will pick their own time to shoot and their own targets. They are especially useful for taking out tanks--they kill the TC and this makes the surviving crewmen lose a lot of interest in the battle ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

Sten said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The rush, rush, rush tactic is OK for relatively small, quick batlle-like maps. In a larger scenario it's more important to get the defender to commit someplace so as to create a possibility for a flanking attack.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What are you calling "large"? In this French-Gebirg scenario, I had the better part of a battalion. And I was trying flank moves; 2 platoons in the middle with flanking help from 1 on the right and 2 on the left, with the 6th in reserve for exploitation. I was just defeated by a combination of defensive terrain and lack of firepower to blast out defenders. Echo said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You had an 81mm FO. Smoke screen for your advanced would have tipped the odds for you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Guess you had to be there, but the Germans were too spread out to smoke enough of them to really matter even if my FOs could have survived the attempt to get an LOS to their positions. And shooting blind resulted in an ineffective scatter (much of which went off the back edge of the map). ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

PatBoivin: just about everything on your lists are already in the game or have been rejected for good reason (use the Search feature). Capitalist Dog: snipers are already in the game--there was even 1 in the original beta demo. ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

Been dinking with the editor making rather mountainous terrain (5m contour interval). One common feature I wanted was a spur ridge coming off the main massif with steep slopes and cliffs on both sides but with vehicles able to move up and down the ridgeline itself. IOW, sorta like a long, narrow ramp. But it couldn't be a straight shot, it had to snake around somewhat. WHAT LED TO LEARNING: I made the ridge in sections of the same basic design: a square of 4 tiles at the same elevation bordged on 2 sides by tiles 2 levels lower and continuing down steeply to the base ground level. The other 2 sides of the 4-tile squares butted against adjacent sections of the ridge, which were usually 1 level higher or lower than those adjacent. But I offset these 4-tile squares: if the ridge was running E-W, then say the lower right corner of 1 square would be in contact with the upper left corner of the next square, etc. THE PROBLEM: The incline between adjacent 4-tile squares wasn't 20m wide but was a knife-edge of passable ground with impassable slopes on both sides. And for some reason, the very top of this knife-edge, just before it reached the flat part of the next higher square, was also a slope. Thus vehicles couldn't move up or down the ridgeline. SOLUTION: raise some of the tiles adjacent to the squares to be only 1 level lower instead of 2. ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

Sten said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I've played a guesstimated 250 games of quick battle. 3 or maybe 4 of those games were unwinable, IMHO, from either side.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think I could have won this French game if I'd been willing to accept pretty heavy losses. Like you say, rush rush rush, basically a human wave attack. Would have been pretty similar to WW1 but I might have done it. But I didn't think this village was worth it. ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

Well, I had a similar experience to John's in some ways just now. I set up a battle with large hills, moderate trees, village, November 44, clear and dry, 800 points for the defender, combined arms forces, French attacking Gibergsjagers. No modifiers, all forces normal experience (every single guy I had was regular). My force consisted of 6 grunt platoons, 1x.50cal, 2xM1919, 3xbazookas, 1x105mm FO, 1x81mm FO, and 7x60mm mortars. These guys were supported by 1xM5 light tank, 2xM8 armored cars, 2xM3 scout cars, and 2xM5 halftracks. Also had a company CO and an extra platoon CO. So I figure it was a depleted battalion supported by a cav troop. Good for some purposes but lacking the punch required for a major attack. And so it proved. The terrain didn't help--on the left 1/2 of the map there was an essentially bald ridge about 300m before the village that I had to cross. Some GBs were in buildings and woods at the bottom of the far side, plus some more in the village beyond which was on a small ridge. If that had been all, I probably could have managed it. GBs don't have much firepower at long range so I could have hosed them with the MGs on my light armor. Unfortunately, there was another ridge (this one with trees) along the German map edge, and in these trees were some dug-in ATGs and MGs. And the bald ridge in the middle was the highest ground, so I couldn't see the ATGs until I was on or over the bare skyline. Things there went about like you'd expect. My first guys over the top were allowed into the sparse cover on the reverse slope before MGs and ATGs opened up. Hmm, stay here and get pounded, run back across the open ground under this fire, or press on towards the better cover? I pressed on. That's when I met the dug-in GBs and their MP40s at the bottom of the ridge. My survivors found some cover and remained pinned the rest of the game, unable to advance or withdraw. I figure they snuck out when it got dark. Meanwhile, I lost an M8 that tried to duel an ATG and 81mm mortar shells started falling on the crest, making it unhealthy to attempt to send more help forward. On the left, there was more cover so my guys were able to get closer to the GBs at the bottom without being splattered. Unfortunately, this cover prevented giving them direct fire support from my vehicles, which could only approach over bare ground around the woods in the face of ATG fire. So I couldn't advance here, either. And blind shelling from the FOs didn't accomplish anything. So I lost. Badly. Well, c'est la guerre. Sometimes you're just screwed. Yeah, I could have done some things different, but I don't think it would have mattered much. I just lacked sufficient firepower to accomplish the mission at the exchange ratio dictated by the forces and terrain. But that's the way it goes more often than not in real life, so I'm happy with it. Besides, I figure I did a good job reconning the position so tomorrow a more powerful force can take the place following a massive bombardment As to comments on CM itself, I have 2: 1. I LOVE the French voices. En avant! Toujours l'attaque! A bas les boches! 2. There was 1 spot on the map where a single tile was several levels lower than all those around it. Right in the middle of a smooth hillside was a deep hole like somebody'd dropped the Washington Monument point-first there. ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We need a Bayou head to head meeting sometime this summer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That would work. Looks like most of you all live in NO so whoever's a batchelor can have us all over and we can trash his place with no regrets ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

The other half of my order (game and manual) arrived today in Wakefield, FWIW ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

Well, as stated in another thread, my poster arrived but sans game. It was shipped on Friday according to the label on the poster tube. What part of the swamp do you splash through? I'm in Wakefield in West Feliciana Parish. Of course, it's not very swampy here these days--we're short 15" of rain this year already..... ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Got that poster framed yet?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As a matter of fact, I gave it to my ol' man as a 2nd round Fathers' Day present. He loves it: "Oh boy, look at all the dead Shermans! Sic semper tyranis!" He wishes the Germans had won, you see ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

Blues fall down like hail There's a Hell-hound on my trail Just poster, no game (bet you didn't know Robert Johnson did haiku) ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

Archfiend said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Actually, Rookie and I arranged to have your copy sent via fourth class mail...it will arrive in August...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You'll be sorry you said that if I ever go berserk like many folks predict I will. The ATF will be knocking on your door. Hmmm, there's a nice thought The rest of you, thanks for the support. Hope you all have better luck. ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

Yup, it's own of those days when Gawd takes a little time out of his busy day to remind me how much he hates me. I open my PO Box and see the poster tube. YES!!! Then I dig everything out and it's all bills and junk. NO!!!! ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

All this talk about armor and nobody's answered the guy's question yet.... The Tiger is not a dog, it's a cat. Panthera tigris to be exact Anyway, IMHO by the latter part of 1944, the Tiger was past its prime, although still a pretty formidable tank. It just wasn't the overwhelming thing it had been earlier in the war. ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

Reaction time and target fixation are the biggies. In CM, buttoned tanks don't spot very well BUT because you have other units around, and because an enemy spotted by 1 unit is spotted by all, this makes little difference. HOWEVER, while the tank might KNOW the target is there, it will take longer to engage it (if it engages at all) if it's buttoned. ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>HMGs in isolation, in a libe of defense, placed in areas where I expect heavy arty, that can not be left uncovered.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I find isolated MGs seem to work best at ranges between 200-300m, where they still have enough firepower to be dangerous or at least annoying but where squads can't reply very well. If you shoot closer than that, a squad (provided it's not too green) can take the MG's first shot and reply effectively. And if you shoot further away, the enemy can safely use arty on your MG. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I was also experimenting with keeping my infantry back in a counter-attacking role, relying on the HMG team to stir up a bit of trouble in the enemy's attack plan.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> IMHO you really shoulnd't use MGs in isolation but should have them backing up grunts in some fashion. So using grunts as counterattackers or just having an MLR is the best course I think. ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

Thanks for the TopoZone link. But I dunno if my "neighborhood" would make good scenario fodder. I live out in the sticks so it would be my house surrounded by acres of mostly impenetrably steep gulleys tangled with woods and briars. And the nearest neighbors are in a trailer park, which I doubt there is a building type for ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman