New To Combat Mission. (Question)

[Michael Emrys]

...i think the most questionable aspect of the plan was where to get the millions of extra Germans to do the farming after the 20 million Slavs were dead.

Breed like crazy.

Michael

[ArgusEye]

It is a bit misleading to speak of one consistent Nazi policy, or either of one consistent Nazi ideology. Where Fascism and Communism were grounded in a few original, well-reasoned texts, Nazism had little more grounding than the ramblings of Mein Kampf. Most of the Nazi elite had quite different ideas about how the new Reich would look in the end. The romantic rural idea was popular in the press, but Goebbels was looking forward to a modern metropolitan Germany, Himmler had feudal ideas about using the lesser races as beasts, and so forth. None of which was adequately founded in reality to be a viable base for policy.

With such people at the helm, even a perfect army could not have achieved victory.

[Vark]

Michael, didn't the SS, of all people, complain about the immorality of the supposed mass breeding programme? Apparently the idea of their soldiers sleeping with endless women to kickstart the master race offended their honour and decency!!!

URC, I thought one of the reasons that the Common Market was set up was to subsidise the hoplessly inefficient French and German faming community who still practised medieval farming methods. I will reply to your comments on my previous post but life gets in the way of researching logistical capabilities, not one of my strong points anyway. In Rome Total war my professional military researcher friend deals with all the fiddly bits and I just fight his battles, which he struggles with. I was very tempted to buy Glantz's "Collosus Reborn" as it has a big section on logistics, C3 and operational planning alongside the forces who did the fighting.

Costard, the US have more than enough conventional capability to obliterate most opponents, thankfully they have neither the inclination or desire to do so. Once you have the will to do so, killing is easy and if that is a national will then God help your opponent! Extrapolating the figures for the final solution suggests that the 21 million could have been disposed off in less than two years. Of course they would not be have been so readily accessible for mass murder but then again the idea of using poison gas on the battlefield was not a new concept, especially to Hitlers generation.

Joachim, your imaginary 'Nazi' company sounds just like the school I work in and don't forget the bootlickers are normally incompetent and only interested in the feathering of nests. As you can tell I'm a disillusioned old hand!

[jtcm2]

"The Holocaust is a chapter in the history of ideas". (P. Veyne)

[Vark]

ArgusEye, I think the German army was too complicit with the Nazi ideology for it all to be blamed on the leadership, he who drinks with the devil etc etc. Certainly, senior German Army leadership was malignly influenced by competing Nazi fiefdoms but also seemed to be more than capable of cocking it up on a regular basis. Interestingly, go to an exhibition of Nazi art and you see that the vision of Germany's future depends on which Nazi commisioned the work. All in all a very depressing couple of hours, enlivened by some dreadful Italian pieces whose only merit was that they were colourful, the German stuff would have been laughable if t were not for the underlying message and reality they exposed.

[costard]

Costard, is the conclusion that it was beyond the capabilities of Hitler's Germany your own or Tooze's?

Tooze is a real historian - he'd never draw that conclusion in public without doing the analysis. Me, I'm a crank and can say whatever I like. I could probably defend the claim. Most problematical on the military front, given the land needed to be occupied, a static front would have had to have been established into the Urals and south through the Caucasus to link up with Persia. I'm not sure the german military even dreamed this was possible - they hoped for a fast knockout of Russia, or they could kiss their hopes and dreams goodbye. At the end of 1941, the writing was already on the wall, and most of the German High Command knew it.

The Nazis' diplomacy advocated the destruction or subjugation of every other "race" and so was not appealing to anyone who couldn't convince the Nazis of their racial and idealogical purity. The practice of subjugation by the military, in line with their stated aims, did not cow the populace of the occupied territories: it stirred them against the invader. When the war extended beyond the planned two years, Germay found itself without the fully geared-to-war economy that it needed and mired throughout the entirety of its conquests in guerilla war. Its navy was out of the contest by the end of '42 (the u-boats had the most notable successes, but were being countered by better Allied technology.) Most of the higher ranked German military knew that once they bogged down in Russia, they were in a war of attrition they couldn't hope to win.

On the killing and disposal of 21 million human beings: its not as easy as you'd suppose. "Hitler's Scientists" by John Cornwall explores the subject a little and explains the difficulties with building the process of industrial murder. And that's mostly an analysis of the processing of the Jews: a targeted and socially, religiously and politically separate portion of the populace.

[Michael Emrys]

Michael, didn't the SS, of all people, complain about the immorality of the supposed mass breeding programme? Apparently the idea of their soldiers sleeping with endless women to kickstart the master race offended their honour and decency!!!

In funny ways Himmler could be quite puritanical. He could also set his puritanism aside at times for compelling opportunistic and pragmatic reasons. But what I had reference to was not soldiers sleeping with endless women (although certain military stars, especially in the Luftwaffe, did precisely that), but that couples of "good Aryan stock" would be legally married, from which point the women became baby factories. Large families apparently were already somewhat the rule in post WW I Germany as its birthrate exceeded that in both Britain and France. And those children would have reached draft age just before and during the war.

Michael

[ArgusEye]

ArgusEye, I think the German army was too complicit with the Nazi ideology for it all to be blamed on the leadership, he who drinks with the devil etc etc. Certainly, senior German Army leadership was malignly influenced by competing Nazi fiefdoms but also seemed to be more than capable of cocking it up on a regular basis.

Agreed; but in the case of the systematic alienation of the Ukrainians, the Heer is not to blame. Atrocities were also committed by the Heer units, naturally. It was not enough to look worse than the Soviets. Many Ukrainians could remember the Holodomor, and you have to be pretty bad to top that. Initial German repression was less severe than the Soviet repression they replaced, which was an undeserved bonus for the Krauts - and they blew it.

Interestingly, go to an exhibition of Nazi art and you see that the vision of Germany's future depends on which Nazi commisioned the work. All in all a very depressing couple of hours, enlivened by some dreadful Italian pieces whose only merit was that they were colourful, the German stuff would have been laughable if t were not for the underlying message and reality they exposed.

It's hard to see how the contemporary Germans didn't see through it. The power of what the people around you find acceptable is shocking in the extreme.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

I will reply to your comments on my previous post but life gets in the way of researching logistical capabilities, not one of my strong points anyway.

np, i'm just talking.

I was very tempted to buy Glantz's "Collosus Reborn" as it has a big section on logistics, C3 and operational planning alongside the forces who did the fighting.

many of his books cover the logistical problems. my quoted Soviet numbers come mainly from his books.

i honestly don't think that any of what i wrote about Soviet logistics is controversial. i don't mean to downplay Soviet successes either. it's remarkable what they achieved in those conditions. even in many of the worst cases of screw ups there are elements of great achievements.

the frustration levels of the brighter officers must have risen all the way to the moon during those operations, because the magnitude of FUBAR is so huge. yet they sucked it in and pushed on. for example when you read some of the reports of intial border battles of 1941 you can't help wondering about the emotions felt but not expressed in the cold analytical words used.

EDIT: BTW you can read some of the reports online. for example check the article titled "Where Did the Tanks go?" (heh) over here http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA335406 (starts at page 19 of that PDF. first article contains some logistical info as well).

if Soviets had lost the war in 1941 and some of those commanders giving those reports would have ended up living in US so that they could write their memoirs without having to worry about getting the bullet, what do you think would their memoirs contain whining excuses about fighting made hard because of bad logistics?

EDIT 2: there are too many things one could quote in that article, but i choose this one:

The army staffs completely forgot that the equipment had a certain running life, that it would require inspection, minor repairs as well as additional replenishment of fuel and ammunition

well, we all make mistakes. nobody is perfect and we can't remember all the tiny details all the time. to err is human. etc

[Vark]

Argus, I'm sure that you are aware that the Ukranian partisans were a very mixed bunch, not the uniform Rodina loving scourge of the fascists, as portrayed post-war. Some were pro Nazi some were German hating some were a mixture of both. There was a fascinating documentary on BBC 2 years ago that revealed lots of previouslu suppressed reports, where Red Army units had as much to fear from the Ukranians, in certain areas.

When it comes to the average German and their buying into the Nazi bollocks (sorry, only term that adequately represents their twisted ideology) I think that the theories of the Abeline paradox and the closely linked Preference break might explain part of the 'support'. I certainly know for some of my living German relatives Nazi ideals are far from dead, just dormant. How many supported their aims is a topic for historians, though units like the 6th Army seemd more than happy to carry out ethnic and racial cleansing.

URC, thanks I will check those links, is Collosus Reborn any good?

[Michael Emrys]

When it comes to the average German and their buying into the Nazi bollocks (sorry, only term that adequately represents their twisted ideology) I think that the theories of the Abeline paradox and the closely linked Preference break might explain part of the 'support'.

Yes. Knowing that there were also some governmental and para-governmental organizations around geared to make life nasty, brutal, and short for anyone who steps out of line might have been a powerful motivator too. Especially if the person involved already believes that considerable moral authority resides in the state.

Michael

[Ziploc]

Costard, I'm not a crank, yet, but i'm certainly cranky after wargaming for a couple of decades!

[undead reindeer cavalry]

is Collosus Reborn any good?

as far as i recall it's excellent and certainly detailed. it's been some years i read it (don't own it, got it from library).

[jtcm2]

What was the original question again ?

[Michael Emrys]

What was the original question again ?

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=94230

Michael

[JasonC]

To jtcm - the initial question was why do my monster IS-2s routinely die to late war Panthers and what can I do about it. Which was answered immediately and accurately (toot toot). Since the answer included quite warranted snark about pro-German bias in CMBB, the Faithful then required 9 pages of ad nausem snow job and an ocean of small red fish to cover over the matter to their own satisfaction. Petering out in a grudging admission that, oh I guess, yeah, shrug, OK, Germany lost the war...

[ArgusEye]

It must be horrible to have these conspiracies against you.

Now, when are you going to come up with factual arguments?

[JasonC]

See?

Oh yeah, and Germany did lose the war. Also it was an "own goal" in the case of Russia, nothing inevitable about it.

Isn't this fun?

[ArgusEye]

Argus, I'm sure that you are aware that the Ukranian partisans were a very mixed bunch, not the uniform Rodina loving scourge of the fascists, as portrayed post-war.

Actually, I wasn't!

I've been reading up on the Ukrainian and Belorussian partisan movements, and I was quite surprised by how they worked. I always assumed they worked much like the Western European resistance movements, but that was completely wrong. Especially the fact that organised military resistance was waged against the Soviets until 1950 was quite eye-opening.

There was a fascinating documentary on BBC 2 years ago that revealed lots of previouslu suppressed reports, where Red Army units had as much to fear from the Ukranians, in certain areas.

I am unable to see this documentary thus far, but luckily there's plenty to read.

I certainly know for some of my living German relatives Nazi ideals are far from dead, just dormant.

Quite a bit of that is counterculture. The Germans are constantly bringing up their national shame in musea, television, books, endless monuments, and some people get irritated and start being contrary. National Socialism is pretty much dead, misplaced nationalism and plain xenophobia are common and mistaken for Nazi ideology.

How many supported their aims is a topic for historians, though units like the 6th Army seemd more than happy to carry out ethnic and racial cleansing.

Same goes for most units. The Germans did not have clean hands anywhere on the Eastern front.