jtcm2

He's in a bar somewhere telling people about PzIII and "Whittmann" etc etc

Oh yes, good point.

Thanks, v. instructive. This, of course, with the Tiger not firing back.

Just to follow up: 76mm (L42 or 51) is modelled about right in CMBB, yes ? ArgusEye points out that in CMBB, ATGs don't fare as well as in real life, because of borg spotting, non-modelling of armour failure after repeated hits, and non-prevalence of hits on running train-- which, I assume, means that in RL, 76mm ATGs could and did take out Tigers at close range better than in CMBB. What about T-34/76s ? In CMBB, against Tigers, any attempt to close and flank usually ends badly. Was this tactic not used in real life ? Was it as costly in RL as in CMBB ? Or are there more factors (borg spotting, non-kneading, non-targetting of running train) which affect the execution of these tactics with T-34 against Tiger ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/us/11winters.html?src=me&ref=general

More appropriate for the CMBO forum, but http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/us/11winters.html?src=me&ref=general

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/us/11winters.html?src=me&ref=general

Yes, Redwolf. But is there not a post somewhere in one of the 25 pages of the thread where someone (you ? BigDuke ? Undead Reindeer ?) writes that that the CMBB 76mm cannot harm the CMBB Tiger at any range from any angle (including point blank)-- and that this doesn't seem to correspond to reality-- therefore that something must be wrong with the tests. (Did I get this right ?) On another note, I just went to an exhibition in Paris on music in the URSS. If you like socialist realism: http://www.cite-musique.fr/minisites/1010_lenine/index.htm

Sorry to be obtuse, but should 76mm be able to puncture a Tiger's skin at *any range at all* ? I felt that to be part of the issue. Thanks re Panther vs T 34/85. Alas, my faithful iMac, after 10 years, just decided and went funny (I kept in on an older version of OS X specifically to play CMBB)-- and I can't get the CD to appear on the desktop anymore.

So what's the answer: is the 76mm undermodelled or not ? For that matter, is 85 mm undermodelled or not / Years ago, I was playing against Graves Registration (if anyone remembers him). A late 1944 battle in Hungarian plains (maybe near Debrecen-- does anyone know the scenario ?) I was playing Soviets. Long scouting and infantry swarming found a Panther and a Nimrod (for I was fighting against Hungarians) behind a wood). My infantry molotoved the Nimrod and were starting to bother the Panther. At this point, I rushed a plt of T34-85s down a road to go and fight the Panther. They closed in, the Panther was still behind its woods, and then-- we both had to stop the battle. What would have happened ? In CMBB (and in real life), a plt of T34-85 rushing to a frontal fight with a Panther at decreasing range, perhaps 300-200 m (admittedly one trying to shake off 1 plt of Russian infantry trying to grenade it)-- who wins ?

What was the original question again ?

"The Holocaust is a chapter in the history of ideas". (P. Veyne)

I'm sorry to butt in as an ignoramus. I always assumed that CMBB had undermodelled 85 mm and 76 mm, because of wrong design choices, perhaps determined by a soft spot for German armour ("German science" as JasonC says). It seems to me that ArgusEye is not a fanboy (too often newbies come onto the forum and exult in German armour), not a player who akes pleasure in driving heavy cats around-- but bases his claim on sources-- namely that the Soviet stuff wasn't that good, actually, and that CMBB does represent this well. This has real consequences-- for how CMBB represents and simulates reality, for what players can do, for playing styles, etc. JasonC and BigDuke6 stick to their guns-- and also adduce sources. I'd like to know the truth-- and try to understand the arguments.

This is very interesting, and I don't have a dog in this fight either way-- except to ask if CMBB is realistic or not. Everyone seems to agree that the StuG with 50+30 front is not well simulated. Points of disagreement seem to be: -is CMBB right to show 85mm ammo as not terribly good in 1943 ? -is CMBB right to show Tiger front and side as pretty invulnerable to 76 mm ? (if I get this right)

So is 85 mm OK or not in CMBB ?