Callidus87

Okay first and foremost I want to make clear that i make this post with good intentions, and do not want to offend you elvis, but show you errors you did in my opinion to improve your game and hopefully your gaming experience in the futer. Second I'm not a proffesional or trained military man, 9 month of duty just told me how to clean a weapon and my room . So my opinion is based on my gaming experience. I think i'm not at terrible player. Third as I didn't played the battle I couldn't see the map as good as you could so there is a possibility that i saw oportunities and positions that in reality weren't there. You have to judge such things. 4. I'm german and we tend to say things more directly as you may be used to, so again this is written with good intentions, if I sound unpolite I appologize. I think your purchase was okay, as it was intended to show of stuff. So I start with your plan for this battle. Imho I had 3 major Points which I disliked a lot from the start of the battle. 1. your ambush defence of gelb with a platoon + mines deep in the forest. 2. your armor placment all the way back at rot 3. your incredible overpowered and imho useless defence of Rot. So Point 1: You didn't need to defend there at all. you would have gained nothing from defending that area. the critical area was the road. And even more importaint the bridge and the start of the road. would you have setup that forces there they would have had much more impact and slowed Bill down more. in the worst case Bill would have evaded into the thick forest where you wanted to defend. But that would have been great for you. It takes incredible long to get infantrie through such terrain. I think it would have been likley that the battle would have been decided before such forces would have reached gelb. and even if they would reach it they would have to cross a long distance over open terrain to reach rot. So in short as long as you control the road and the open terrain all forces going through those woods on gelb are out of the battle. Second Point (2): this one isn't as clear to me as 1, But i belive that you put yourself at a disadvantage placing your armor so far behind your defence line. It was almost impossible for them to help at the bridge and the road behind it. They were also your most mobile and powerfull fire power and you needed to achiev more with them than just killing bills tank. i think you should have used them in your earley game with ambushes and harrasing. Sure that would be a risky move but there were a lot of ambush and retreat positions for them that you didn't use at all. I hoped to see them in ambush positions to fire on every road crossing that bill would have to make and than falling back to the next one. The Panther plus scouts (good scouts by the way) on the west side would have been enough to scare bill away from using that aproach. leaving 2 Hetzers for ambushes and harrasing. And If you wouldn't have defended that forrest at gelb you would have had the infantry to support and spot for them. Let's get to Point 3: Well you just robbed your platoons from a lot of theire firepower to put that MGs in positions where they would enter the fight when the battle was lost. I don't recall how many support weapons you hold back there. 3-5 MGs(including the one from Gelb). That is serious fire power that you despretley needed at Blau and imho to cover the main road up north, and some forrest roads and road crossings. MG 42s are the main firepower of german infantrie and you just placed them where they would never have any use other than in a last stand where Bill would have secured everything else lost all his tanks and had no artillery left. That would have been the only scenario where those crucial weapons would have had a major effect. in almost all other cases they would have been more or less useless. One had effect but only because you abandond Blau and lost the battle. Planing over let's get to execution. Well you did a lot better than I expected you to do. But on the other hand you could have done even better. Bill's aproach was favoruble for you and you didn't made enough of it. I disliked your move forward with your tanks, which got them killed right away. Well as i read Bills side too It was clear to me what would happen, but you got over aggresiv with that move. In such a Situation It's not a good idea to close distance with german armor vs allied soviet armor. they are just faster more maneuverable and they want to get close to you. So in almost every scenario you do not want to get closer to them. in the best case you get into position and kill all of Bills armor in one minute if that does not happen he rushes in your side and behind you. After don't getting shot's at Bills tanks for several rounds you should have repositioned instead of attacking. Okay last Point that i will mention. Your earley and complete withdrawl from Blau. I think you were correct to abandon your starting positions and fall bak. But you ran to far. you needed to fight for Blau and that as hard as possible. That was the Open terrain where you had the best oportunities to catch Bill's troops in the open and get crossing fire on them. Just imagin what have happend if the flame thrower had a squad to cover him. Blau was your major Killing zone and you gave it up to early. you saw how good you MG's where in this kind of terrein if you have had the ones you placed in Rot here Bill would have had to pay a much higher price. Also Blau was the only objective that was defendebal. Rot and Gelb where open to fire from direct Fire weapons and such you almost automaticly loos every firefight vs Bills Troops If he can attack organised (If he can build a base of fire vs those objectives). Blau shields a lot of Positions from Bills covering fire. So I think this is enough stuff to think about. I hope you understand what I mean and you got another perspective on the battle. If you feel offended than please just ignore this post. If you think I am wrong that is also okay and I would like to enyourage you and eveybody else who thinks I am to explain to me why. Closing I would like to say I didn't liked your plan but was very surprised how well you did with it and I loved this AAR and hope I will read more from you. Calli

Great AAR guys and well played Elvis. It was a very enyoable read

hehe i loved how he didn't see the AT Vehivle moved ordered his tanks around it, they blew it up and he noticed it 5 min later ^^

Well, I can understand the OPs pain. Well there are two things that jump into my mind. First I dislike the repository (I have know clue how that translates into my native language) The searchfunction is terrible. I never find what I want in that thing be it mods campaigns or scenarios. finding stuff again after a week is similiar difficult. Also Comment sections aren't my thing. It is like writing on a wall, there is no interaction and you can't know if anyone reads it and/or understands what you mean. That brings me to my second point. You need a Board for stuff like this eithere a webpage with scearios and a Forum for them or an Forum board here where designers can introduce theire campaignes and scenarios and get feedback perhabs with AARs so that you have more eyecandy for that board.

Well, Bill has always been pretty flexible and will change Plance if openings or blocks present themself. But Yeah If Bil pushes for Yellow than that will play Elvis in his Hand.

you are correct with your assumptions. some month were even worse according to that page.

Where did you get the Information that all G models where in that Schlachtgeschwader? Your link tells us that all JU87 G where in 10.(Pz)/SG2 and not in 3. Gruppe. Same link tells us that the 10. Gruppe had a maximum of 18 G-2 in 9.44 the whole Geschwader something like 20. So I'm totaly confused by your post combined with the link you provided. Perhabs I just can't read those spreadsheets correctly. totaly possible. acording to wikipedia 202 /U 87 G Models where build in the War, so yeah those things were realy rare.

Point Cost were never about industrial cost and more of balance costs. And we don't know how effective these things are. with 2 cannons and 20 shots or so infantrie strafing is out of the question leaving it attacking tanks.

One Soldire to his comrades: "Hey guys let us all sit on this shiney big target and drive through a battlefield without anything protecting us, and ...oh ...perfect it has fuel tanks on his back, perfect seats." Russians...

Bill give us some Pictures of your Toys ;-) We want to see them Rolling before the germans blow them up...ohem....

Hm, I thought it was more like the german 75mm from the paks pzvi etc. the short one. well which isn't that much of a diffrence... The Point is Elvis has to be careful with his tanks and the Kittys are weaker as vs US.

It looks realy bad for the Germans. We could hope that the mali for splitting troops are realy big for the russians. Perhabs big enough to throw back 2 man scout teams before they can profite good intel. German Frontal armor on theire Tankls isn't a reliable defence in this battle. T34/85 and ISU 122 have enough fire Power to easy penetrat Hetzers and they can penetrate the Panther. He has to scout realy good and deni Bill reliable intel. I agree, he should try to get as much ambushes as possible.

Nice setup, we will see a lot of the new stuff. Now go get him and stop the russians ^^

@ Vanir. naturaly you would shift mroe forces but there is "only" one that can react pretty fast and help the one platoon that is attackt directly. the rest will need time to arrive. And i just wanted to show a weak point. Well my plan has the same/ similiar Problem. I never Imagined Bill would suggest that line of approach, and I think it will give him Problems If he comitts to much to it and Elvis reads it correctly. Elvis could hold him in that Forests and Flank for a realy long time.

@ Vanir: Well If he as it's seems likley now he will adavance east you would have to stop his 3 companies + tanks with one platoon in close quarters with only one Platoon able to react fast. If he breaks through that West Flank he has won as he can easely take the northern Obj. and will have a better Fire Position on forces in Obj. Blau. So spare mines should be placed there. I realy hope Elvis brings more than one company.

well let's see I'm looking forward to it.

hehe nice to see that we all would like to see Bill bleed in that woods ^^ And from what I read so far Our Plans aren't actualy so diffrent from each other. Vanir you are up

Well as i gave up on sleeping tonight I could tell you what I had in mind with my composition. My general Idea is to fight a realy long Battle with a defence in depth slowly grinding dowm his forces and a major strike when he exits the forrest to assault Obj. Blau. I see the Forrest as my outpost and skirmish line. My main Line off defence would be deployed at the grid line 10 and 11. And the Farm/northern City/ northern Forrest as fall back Positions. I would deploy the full Straggler Groupe in the Forrest. They have two major objectives. First Recon. I need to know where Bill is and especialy where he wants to go. Second: Delay and attrition. The Woods look pretty dence so it should be possible to lay a lot of small ambushes and delaying his assault and make him waste his ammo. If this formation has something like 3 Platoons. One would go to the south, one to the West/north and one to the east. I would also attach some Schrecks and the Flamethrower. I don't want major engagments with them but a lot off small ones killing his scout teams and than retreat if possible. It is key that I know where his major Formations are going so that I can react with my mobile elements. AS Bonus I would place one quad halftrack on the cross road at 10/5 (in concealment/cover) to close down that road through the forrest. I would deploy both JUs immiediatley to attack the area 5/3 to 2/7 and hopefully slowing him down damaging him. Okay Now I come to the Tanks. The Panther would have to close down the West aproach hopefully there is a good concealment spot in the 12/1 11/1 area. If possible he schould get a scout team as assistance to get warned from enemy scouts. He is not fixed to that Position If he is needed elswhere he will have to move. He generley should switch positions as much as Possible after he is scouted. the 2 Hetzer should assist the Stragglers at the beginning of the match using the intel those provite and prepare ambushes and retreating after being revealt for another ambush. secondly they should combined with the east straggler groupe try to make a lot of noice in the east, so he doesn't want to go that way. This is secondary if he approaches that way we will have to switch Positions to make our major hit in the 11/6 to 10/8 area. It is importaint that we don't risk to much with the Hetzer as we will need them later. Our fusilier company (-) Will be our main line of defence + the surving stragglers and tanks. here are concealt positions importaint to attack him when he leaves the forrest and is in the open. those Positions shouldn't have line of fire into the forrest as i don't want them to get Pinned by infantrie firing out of the forrest. this may conclude in loosing Obj. Blue but will preserve forces. i'm not concernt or less concernt if he wants to go east for obj. Gelb. that will cost him a lot of time and from there he has to cross a lot of open fields if he wants to reach the farm. After that it should be a city fight vs an hopefully exhausted and depleted enemy. I hope I made clear what and how i want to fight this. the second Quad will guard the Panther from air attacks (hopefully) and is a great assitance in the city fighting and the ambush when he leaves the forrest. It is possible that i won't have as many Schrecks as I like, and that that would force me to replace the Panther for a Pak 40/ Marder or PZ IV but none of this would be good. Please feel free to comment. I know this has flaws but every plan has and I think this is a good compromise. Yes i would like to have more infantry but I think it is realy needed that we have mobile Ranged AT capability as russians could flood the field with t34 and infantrie and schrecks alone wouldn't be enough imho. AT Mines would be great too but I don't see a unit that i could trade. JUs 28 Points/ Quads 50... So Perhabs just one Hetzer. to get Mines and Schrecks. If I could place mines i would Place them on crossroads in the forrest and the southern city and the west aproach. Not one big feels but a lot of them at shoke points and key locations and as far south as it's still smart.

Okay 2 Points: 1. Elvis Plan 2. Bills attack. Point 1: That plane gives Bill full control and maneuver for the southern half of the map. It relies on Bill coming from angels he is suspecting without forcing bill to use them. and can easely be out flanked in the west with armor. and his ambush can get attackt from behind from the east. he won't have enough Mines to make the Minefield he wants. Well perhabs I just don't understand what he realy wants. But Imho his Plan has to much holes and will get scouted by Bill. 2. I think Bill won't have a plan. I think he will scout excesivley and will take that rout where he thinks he can attack the best. It LOOKS like he has 3 major avenues of approach. 1 open in the west. one for infantrie through the forest in the middle and one in the east over the river valey and than north up that road. He will try to find fixed Positions and overwhelm/snipe them, and go around elvis strong Points. So I expect that he will move scouting forces on all three aproaches and establish his plan after he made contact.

@Lurrp well I see what you want to do and how it could be devastating. But I fear it wouldn't work. What If Bill scouts your AT positions early, take them out with smoke +direct or indirect fire and than uses the now open routes around the forrest for his attack as he sees little movment. you wouldn't be able to react and your company (over 30% of your forces is usless)*. Your plan relies on bill attacking through the forrest. and there are aproaches in the west and east to go around. your Plan ist totaly deadly if he attacks in the forrest. but there is a if. * Duh my mistake u said Platoon. But I'm not sure one Platoon will be enough for that much terrain. that forrest ist 500m x 600m wide. you would probably need a company.

hm, I don't like your Plan. (don't want to sound rude) I'm not sure how much we should say, so I leave it at that without aproval from you to go into detail. And i want to mention, my opinion isn't realy relevant. Do what you like to do, this is your battle and AAR. i don't want that you to think you should do what I say or so. So please keep going and have fun.

Hi, as some of us are getting pretty detailed about tactics in the German threat I thought I'll open up another one so we can speak freely. If you want to read the AARs without Spoilers and Opinions from third parties you should stay out of this threat as it would ruin your enyoment. That was the only warning. From now on Spoilers. If this is the wrong place or you want to handle it another way please feel free to redirect me. In the German side threat we are discussing how, the Germans should defend on this battlefield, and we have 3 Formations and opinions at the moment. Vanir would like to see 2 fusilier companies + AT mines and 2 Hetzers, 1 quad halftrack + support. And would do a "forward defence". Lurrp: would like to see off map mortars with TRP, AT guns, perhabs a ju87, a granadire company Hetzer + Panther. Which sounds for me like a fixed defencive position and an ambusch plan when Bill has to exit the forest and enter the village. I hope both will elaburate theire Plans in detaile here and we can have a nice discussion. I would like to see a force of: 2 JU 87 G, 1 Panther, 2 Hetzer, 2 quad half track, 1 Straggler Group and 1 fusilier company (-). I would do a mobile defence over more or less the hole map in depth. ( we all would use some infantrie flamethrowers in our companies) As It is pretty late I will stop here and tell you my thoughts tomorrow and explain what I meant with the above statment. Please continue, enyo and keep friendly. PS: Sorry for my spelling, it's usualy pretty bad and it's not better at 2 am. If some one could correct the titel please... PS2: lucky I couldn't sleep^^

Well Bill gave us Grid, and if I counted correctly, the map is 2000m x 1000m. That is pretty large imho. Is there another thread where we can talk openly about tactics? I'm not sure what I can/should write here. And I think we slowly get pretty detailed about combat plans.

All of them

@Vanir: I'm sorry First, yes I saw that you acknowledged the winning thing, didn't want to sound like I didn't see it. i still belive my recommendation is a viable option and I would have a Plan with it. Second, sorry again, with heavy I didn't mean it in military terms, but more in " a lot of infantry". Fusiliers could be a realy good core. I totaly agree. Well as we don't have the map we all just guess how the terrain is from the 3 screenshots we have. My Impression is, that a forward defence is not suitabel because I think Bill will have a good base of Fire on all key locations in that area. But you are probably much better in reading terrain than I am.