WIP German, one-platoon Campaign

[Gpig]

Hey guys,

Quick report on the 2nd mission/battle. It's great! Really enjoying this one, but running out of men. I'll let you know how it ends. (I like the longer time to complete the mission in this one.)

Back to the first battle.

I like the idea of the changes you've made. I'd be careful not to make it too difficult. If you will be adding troops (to the prison, to patrols, to the bunkers) Perhaps the majority of enemy troops could be lessened in quality to Conscript level.

The map changes sound great, and the patrol should be fun.

I'd agree that a variable ending time would be great. Adding an extra bit of tension to the ending.

I especially like Erwin's idea of having a squad of your Gerber's Heros having already captured one of the towers. That intuitively kicks off the scenario and gives your team a slight leg up.

Looking forward to testing it out.

Cheers,

Gpig

[Erwin]

Completed prison escape scenario v2 (tried 3 times to get a good result):

1) Putting a 4-man team in one of the towers is too much. They were able to wipe out a Gerberian 4-man assault team that was carefully hunting up the tower with 10 sec pauses at each floor.

2) I experimented with avoiding the two towers furthest from the gate and that seemed to work best, as those guards played no part in the game.

3) I put two teams plus the sniper and MG team in the buildings closest to the gate. and the third squad split in teams hunts thru the large barracks building. Not sure who notices who first, but the guards in the barracks shoot one of the MG team as it moves and are in turn KIA. The guards in the gate towers and the gatehouse open fire at this time and get neutralized in a firefight. However, each of the two squads (that were waiting for them to appear) takes a casualty.

After that, there is no further problem as Gerber's teams hunt through the woods to the left of the gate and then around the side of the map towards the RR. The patrol in the woods is spotted and several are hit with no friendly casualties. Gerber's guys are spotted by some units in town and a long range firefight occurs with no effect. The Gerberians run away towards the EXIT. At the embankment it is now easy to run down the side close to the EXIT and disappear with 4 mins to spare.

Major Axis Victory:

Guards: 6 KIA and 6 WIA

Gerberians: 1 KIA and 2 WIA

Of course I knew where the guards were this time. My instincts tell me that escape from the prison with no casualties is very hard/impossible. Suggest you use 1 or 2-man guard teams in the prison, not 3 or 4 man-teams. Then the Gerberians have a chance of killing them with fewer or no casualties (but it's still an entertaining challenge).

However, after that, if one uses the circuitous route away from the woods and town it's too easy, uneventful and boring.

I think it's a mistake to make it so easy to avoid the town and bunkers and the patrol in the woods. You should present the player with real choices/decisions to make: "Should I go via the town to the RR, or via the woods, or...?"

Suggestions:

1) More patrols in the open area and woods to prevent an easy escape via the map edge.

2) Maybe slightly lessen the troops in town.

3) Man the bunkers. They can be taken out with grenades, I did it.

4) As someone else said, make all the guards conscripts so the Gerberians have a good chance at doing some fun damage without taking WIA and KIA.

5) If you make changes like the above, put some hints in the briefing as to the choices the player has. Presumably Gerber would know that there are patrols in the woods and approx strength and quality of the guards in the town as well. This should be a real 50:50 choice.

6) I also wonder if there should be a back exit (via a tower or via the barracks building) from the prison - that would provide another decision re whether to take the towers/barracks, or go for the gate.

[bardosy]

@Gpig: Thanks for the report. The 2nd mission's time will be extended.

Don't worry about the difficulty of 1st mission. I only added 4 men to the guards, but Erwin reported, it's too hard, so I'll reduce them for 2. They are all greens (the original guards and patrol is also was green).

@Erwin: Thanks, I'll relocate one of the Gerber's team to the farest (from the exit zone) tower. It will be the sniper or the MG, so the player can decide to run up (to cover from above) or run down and join the rest of the team.

1. Ok, I'll reduce the 4 guards to 2 in the backtower and lower their skill from green to conscript. And you suggested me later, I use 1-2 men teams in all the prison. It's very good idea, but you mean: the sum of the guards will be the same, just in more teams? Or you mean half the headcount of the guards at the prison?

2. This is very good! I never could sneak out through the gate without fight that guards. But it's good, because I want the player try to avoid the fight as he can.

And your other bunch of suggestion:

1. I like your idea for a second patrol with limited skill and hadcount (just for fun).

2. In my mind, a town is alwasy has some garrison. They could be stomach-and-ear, but they are in concentrate group, so I left them in the town and I hope the players will avoid it. I understand your concept of "two possible rout", but IMHO a town is never a possible rout for runaway prisoners.

3. It's always a dilem what is better for a fist mission (of a campaign): an easy one and don't make the player angry, or a hard one and don't let bore the player. But I prefer the easy one. Later, this campaign will be hard. So, I decided to not populate that bunker, sorry.

4. It's OK.

5. They are prisoners with very limited intel. I try to simulate this. Of course they have better intel about the guards of the prison, but they have only idea about the patrols of area of the prison, they have no clear picture.

6. It's could be too easy. In my language there is a wise sentence: "it's not exists, as an emergency exit in the prison"

And yes, I'll name the next ZIP file by the version number. Thanks for the advices!!!!

[bardosy]

I uploaded the new version (v0.22): http://lacko.pcdome.hu/CMBN/Gerber.0.22.zip

* 2nd mission change duration from 1:10 to 1:30

* 1st mission: added a 2nd patrol in the area

* 1st mission: reduced the guard-team at the back tower

* 1st mission: replace the Gerber's sinper into the 4th tower

* 1st mission: guards skill is lowered to conscript

BTW, any of you need any mission extracted from the campaign (for better testable), just say and I'll send it. Eg: Gpig have no enough men for the 3rd mission, he can start it with full power.

[Erwin]

My (hopefully) final comment on your very fun first mission:

1) You put a lot of work into the town and that part of the map. It's a waste that you make it obvious that the Gerberians should avoid it. It would make the game more replayable and fun if there were at least two viable escape routes.

Eg: The first time I ever played this, I attacked towards the town as that is where I thought I had to enter the RR. (I assumed the steep embankment was impassible.) I did quite well, as the town guards tend to cower or run and hide quite quickly. I was then able to KO both bunkers with grenades (one does NOT need the pfaust). If you perhaps reduce the town guard quality, or took a couple of teams away, Gerber can quite realistically escape via the town and bunkers with minimal if any casualties. Using this route, TIME was my problem, not the guards. Rushing to make it in 30 mins is what caused casualties.

2) In the prison I think you should have 1 and 2-man guard teams only. However, the headcount probably could be the same.

3) I think you should consider making the large barracks building to be part of the wall, and give it a small door (rear entrance). (If you do that I would not increase the TOTAL headcount of guards, but I would put a 2nd one or two-man team in the barracks someplace.) That would give Gerber a choice of taking out the guards in the barracks and escaping that way, or as currently, thru the main gate.

Giving the player options and difficult choices is what makes a scenario fun and replayable. Currently, there is a "trick" to the scenario and one only solution. Once one knows that, one never wants to play this scenario again.

Now to move onto the 2nd scenario.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Hi bardosy,

Sorry I'm very busy right now, and I haven't had any time to test it. I may never get time to test it before you release it, but I will do what I can, and I will definitely play it after release in any case!

-FMB

[bardosy]

No problem FMB! You primary objective is to create your fantastic campaigns!!!!

[Field Marshal Blücher]

No problem FMB! You primary objective is to create your fantastic campaigns!!!!

Heh, I wish I even had the time to do that. Getting a job+going to a tough graduate school, while useful in the long run, does not leave one with a lot of spare time.

[Erwin]

Battle 2 feedback (WEGO WARRIOR):

About 40 minutes left. Enjoying this battle very much so far. This scenario is more conventional/less innovative than the really interesting first scenario, but it's fun as the decisions to be made are clearer (less thinking involved).

At start I decided to attempt the right flank thru the farmhouse since this route gives me longer range LOS and that should benefit my tanks. (The left flank approach would require my units to skirt a forest which can be death-traps for vehicles.)

Used tanks to blast US out of the farmhouse and only lost a couple guys taking it (as usual I should have blown up the buildings more b4 sending in inf). The 251/10 plus a squad on the road intercepted US reinforcements trying to rush from (my) left to the right of the map (on the far side of the river). So, as the main Gerberian force advanced towards the crossing on the right, the tanks managed to cause a lot of US casualties.

Currently, most Gerberians across the river. But, now faced with a dilemma as to how to reach the EXIT zone. Either I blast thru the town (could be very bad re ambushes), or I try and detour to my left and sweep around the town. But, then I could run into more US on my left flank. And, because the EXIT zone is so close to the town, I worry about ambushes from the town - esp bazookas in what will then be my right flank.

I did a Cease Fire and found I had 5 casualties so far. 2-3 KIA and 2-3 WIA IIRC. However, the US has lost almost 10 times as much so far. However, I was dismayed to see how many men the US still has. We'll see how I get on as I try to make the EXIT. But, I worry that my Gerberians will get worn down to nothing at this rate.

(I seem to be much better at commanding armor than infantry in CM as I rarely lose armor, but my inf is usually worn down... A man here, a man there... The inf casualties inexorably mount up. Generally, I don't do enuff prep fire before sending in inf I think. I am very conservative/too conservative about wasting ammo!)

[bardosy]

Am I understand well, you didn't reach the Exit zone, but press a Ceasefire and you win the mission? Can you remember how score did you have and why?

Yes, this scenario is more conventional, except your very limited unit. But fortunately a Panther support is always useful, because of the Americans are over-number you. And I'm the same player as you: now I played FM Blücher's campaign (die letzte...) and I could save many vehicle, but half of my infantry is bleed out...

The next mission will be again unconventional, but not so hard and very beautiful (when Shermans in flame light up the valley around the bridge). I use that screenshot in my CMBN review, because it was very nice.

And the 4th mission is conventional again. So I guess, it's a good balance between conventional and unconventional missions...

I use the same infantry tactics as you, because I practiced it very much in CMSF (I guess you too bring it from shock force), but Bradley's Bushmaster is probably greater firepower and Syrian houses are probably weaker then Norman.

[Erwin]

No, I had to stop playing and saved the game and pressed ceasefire to see how I was doing so I could give you feedback. I still have to complete the 2nd scenario. But, we'll see if I can do it without losing most of my force.

My only concern so far with the 2nd scenario is that the EXIT zone is so close to the town, I think I may have to attack the town whether I like it or not, and I really don't think U have enuff force left. I worry that that is where all those extra US troops (and bazookas) are.

No hints please... we shall see...

[Erwin]

Around 20 mins to the end: Have elected to go on the right map edge and use engineer to blast a hole for the vehicles in the RHS bocage. The MkIV and Stug are safely through and facing the town. KO'd an ATG. But, US small arms fire and mortars continue to attrite the Gerberian infantry. 5 KIA and 5 WIA so far. If there is little opposition in the town, I may make the EXIT zone, but it looks like I won't have enough men left to continue.

Generally I think it's not good to locate Victory Locations such that it encourages players to use any map edge. It feels gamey. But, I see no other option that would be suicide, and things are bad enuff for Gerber's infantry as it is.

Bardosy: Did you play this campaign through and did not suffer this inf. attrition? I think I am down to about 15 infantrymen from the original 31!

[Erwin]

Exited all surviving units with 4 mins to spare.

5 KIA, 8 WIA vs 62 KIA and 29 WIA for the Allies and a vehicle. German Minor Victory 200 : 154

Didn't understand the Gas Storage VL. It is not named and can't be seen even in the endscreen. Recommend you label it as a location.

The town was easier to get thru than I expected. Massing the tanks and inf seemed to easily kill or suppress any US that opened fire. But, I felt weird/gamey that I could hug the right map edge and get thru with little opposition. Esp when I saw how many US were still around the center of the map. I would have been massacred had I gone that route and still had to deal with the town to get to the exit zone.

I would recommend that the town be placed further away from the Exit zone and right map edges.

I also worry that even though I didn't think I was making careless moves (I replayed the turn if I thought I had done something really stupid and got casualties as a result), I could not prevent gradual attrition of Gerber's inf. 12 of the 13 casualties are from the original 31 escapees. (One was from the mortar ammo bearers.)

I think that replacements should be set at around 50% of losses to simulate other deserters etc joining Gerber. Aso maybe make his group Crack to simulate their desperation. Anything to make it a bit easier to kill the US and get through without losing so many men and starting the next scenario with so little inf.

Battle 3 looks like maybe it could be easy(!?) but am thinking it may be better to wait for you to make adjustments first...? I get the feeling I will soon only have my vehicles and crews, but virtually no inf.

[bardosy]

Erwin, honestly, I just tested these missions as individual scenarios. As a campaign, I only tested the first four missions in linked. But I know what scenario is unconventional (when I have to avoid conflict) and what is conventional (when I have to use maximum firepower from tanks). So it was easier to me. Additionally, I played in real-time and Warrior. I guess, it's easier to react quickly and save lives.

Gas storage: I just added one easter egg, an undocumented gas storage at one of the houses of the town (I thought a renegade German unit always happy some fuel surplus). It's an invisible VL and not necessary to victory.

There is no americans in the ceneter of the map: There is a larger garrison (HQ + guards + mortar battery) at the chatou (palace) near the forest, but it's not in the center: this is the same amount of Americans as you have to deal at the upper side of the map (farm + town). Some other beta tester tried the upper side to reach the exit zone, and if there was no garrison there, it could be too easy. So you decided the upper way (and I guess it's the better, because you enemies were separeted).

And the other Americans in the cenetr was the refugees: they were counter-attackers, but you tanks kill their moral and thet flee to the center.

Very good suggestion to add Gerber's unit some deserters. I will think about it. But I'll do this. But I will try it to keep the story intact.

You can try the Battle 3 with limited infantry, because no need to much infantry for this.

But Battle 4 need infantry. But I can send you the separated mission (not in the campaign) for better testability...

[Erwin]

It was the US troops in the "chateau" a few hundred meters to the left of the town I was referring to as "in the center" of the map.

In the endscreen I noted there were two ATG's plus mortars and significant inf forces around the chateau (I would label locations too plz). If I had tried that route, and THEN had to fight around the town to get to the EXIT I doubt if many of Gerber's guys would have survived. It would also be a longer route - I may have had to rush more or run out of time.

I was surprised you did not place inf ambushers in the woods to the left of center. That danger was why I chose the RHS of the map thru the farmhouse. IMO one NEVER should attack thru or close to woods with vehicles etc. if there is another choice.

Also, without incentive, there is also no reason to fight thru the town since one can squeeze by via the map edge. As I said b4, the town should not be so close to the edge, or there should be obstructions at the edge to force the player thru the town.

Since this is a campaign I am not sure what it would prove if I played scenario 4 with a full strength force. Getting the balance between having enuff opposition while not taking too many casualties to complete the campaign is very tricky and a major part of the challenge (both in design and to play).

I hope you make the changes and then give us one more chance to play from Battle 1.

[Erwin]

Played the (strange) scenario 4. It's pretty easy to wait until there are a few minutes free of enemy units and race under the bridge to safety. And it's rather boring - not worth the small amount of effort to get Gerber's units to safety.

I only got a Minor Victory. The briefing is pretty clear about avoiding combat as one would be soon overwhelmed. However, there are points awarded for killing the enemy convoy, so rather contradictory...

The inf run under thr bridge fine, but it's disconcerting to see the vehicles pop up on top of the bridge momentarily as they run underneath.

This is a scenario in which knowledge of enemy LOS capabilities is important, and therefore one is playing the game system more than using good tactics. So I did not like this scenario in its current form. I think this would be better if it were part of a larger scenario in which one does have to do a bit of fighting to get to the exit. Maybe a fighting retreat/delaying action so that the majority of Gerber's foce escapes?

At the start of Battle 4 I found the briefing to be confusing as several locations mentioned in the briefing are not named on the map. The briefing also says that the tanks will arrive in 5 mins. But, all Gerber's units including the tanks were already on the map.

Given how how few inf I have left not sure that I want to play on until improvements are made. Hope this all helps.

[bardosy]

Sorry Erwin, I'm very busy in this week, but I'll read everything at weekend!

[bardosy]

@Erwin

1. This "highway bridge" mission is not a hard one, but could be fun. The timing is critical and you was luicky, because many waves coming with Shermans and mech infantry.

2. There is a CMBN bug in that bridge, when vehicles pop up to the brindge. I was a beta tester of CMBN and I reported this bug two times, but developers cannot recreate the bug, they could command Gerber's vehicle under the bridge without problem. So I belived, it's only my PC. This is a good news to me, because not my PC is broken... And I'll write a little hint in the designer's note section: if you command the vehicle exactly the middle of the road and the vehicles don't touch the two pilon of the bridge, they will drive normaly under the bridge.

3. After this highway bridge mission I will set up a 100% REFIT for Gerber (it's a full revive the squads) and write to the briefing a short story about escaping German prisoners... So the main mission (the robbery) can start with full strength. Is it OK, or you think you need more squads?

4. In the ambush mission (after the robbery), possible need special units, like AT guns. Currently there is nothing more, just the gerber units. But what do you think, is it good, if I remove one of the Gerber's squad and add an AT gun team and tell in the briefing, this is a captured AT gun?

5. How do you think label the chetau? Just put a red label on it? And how it important for the mission? Or the story?

But you are right, in the Robbery mission, it could be necessary to label the old french barrack. But the location of the money is stay hidden, because the player have to find it by fight.

6. I draw a map for the Infiltration mission, because I don't really understand why you cannot avoid the town. I followed the red arrow and avoid to enter the town. Of course Gerber's tank have to hammered the buildings to suppress the American garrison, but the infantry could go through to the exit.

I capture an other map for you, if you want draw me your suggestion.

7. Thanks for the report of the problem of 5min panzers. I made that mistake and I'll fix it.

[Erwin]

In response:

1) It seemed like the stream of US reinforcements slowed/stopped in the last 5-8 minutes and I was able to get everyone thru then. However, since the briefing says avoid combat it's odd that points are awarded for killing US units. I thought this scenario was not that interesting as it involves waiting for most of the scenario.

2) I saved almost every turn, so if someone wants to see what I experienced...

3) Sounds like a good idea.

4) Haven't tried the robbery scenario, so can't comment. But, if an AT gun is needed, your rationale seems good. Not sure why you'd remove a squad.

5) I would put more landmarks on all your maps (except for hidden objectives). It makes it a lot easier to understand the briefings and to explain to other people what one is doing.

6) I did exactly the same thing and felt I was "cheating." Winning by hugging the map edge to avoid the enemy is not that much fun.

Hope you can make improvements as this campaign has potential. It's quick to play cos there are so few units, but one has to be very careful as there are so few of Gerber's men. I still suggest they be made Crack so it's a bit easier for them to use good tactics to win and overcome the enemy with fewer casualties.