Chad Harrison Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Hi all One of the greatest strengths of CMx2 games is the TO&E. I love the accuracy and realism BFC put into the TO&E's. As far as I can tell, no other tactical game comes anywhere close to this level of realism. But theres one that baffles me: the US Rifle Platoon Headquarters element. In game, there are three men: "Commander" "Executive Officer" "Radioman" Every source I have ever seen has the Plt HQ as: Platoon officer (usually 2nd Lt) Platoon Sergeant (NCO) Platoon Guide (NCO) 2x Rifleman I am not caught up on the naming or the ranks, but what I am caught up on is the missing 2 men. In the CMx1 games, they correct number of men, and weapons for that matter, was there. Am I missing something here? Certainly at the Company level, plenty of troops were not on the front lines, but at the platoon level, its pretty safe to assume that everyone is there - or atleast as far as CM is concerned. Sure, one of those riflemen could be acting as a runner during the battle, but once you open that can of worms, everytime someone is wounded, you could loose someone who would be helping them back. Or have a runner from a squad taking a message to Plt HQ. Or loose 2 rifleman to escort prisoners back to the MP's and so on and so on. So I am just curious why these two men were omitted? Was it intentional? This isnt a quest for balance, or added firepower, it just sticks out to me when theres so much accuracy everywhere else. Thanks in advance Chad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 This is off the top of my head, but wasn't the primary duty of the two Private Riflemen in the Plt. HQ to serve as messengers? As such, I wonder if BFC excluded them because most of the time they'd be running around relaying messages up to Company, down to squads, etc., and would therefore not be available as part of the platoon's fighting strength. Even the relatively radio-rich U.S. Army relied on foot messengers for a significant portion of signals traffic. If you watch the proliferation of spotting info, you'll see that units out of C2 do *eventually* receive spotting info; it just takes a lot longer. This could be our little abstracted messengers at work... I dunno; it would be interesting to see if German units have similar missing soldiers at the Plt. and/or Coy HQ level; this would support my hypothesis. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 This is off the top of my head, but wasn't the primary duty of the two Private Riflemen in the Plt. HQ to serve as messengers? That was my first thought too, but once you start pulling people out because they *might* be running a message, you open a whole new can of worms. I can only imagine the 100's of reasons any single soldier might not be with his unit while its fighting - but thats not the scope of CM, or atleast not in my opinion or understanding of BFC's opinion. The TO&E is full strength, then the scenario designers can adjust this to fit their needs. I am not as comfortable with German TO&E's as the Americans as I dont have any books that list a specific list of whos in the German Gren Plt HQ. According to BayonetStrength.com, this unit should have: Platoon HQ had a Commander, two runners, a stretcher bearer, and two supply wagon drivers So if we said that 'messengers/runners' were gone during a battle, that would mean that the Plt HQ should have one person CM:BN has it as one Commander, one radio operator and two soldiers. Not to go on, but I am really trying to just understand if this was intentional, as it seems to be inconsistent with other Plt HQ's including runners/messengers - why would this one not include them? For example, the Airborne Plt HQ has its messengers still in the unit. Still curious Chad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 That was my first thought too, but once you start pulling people out because they *might* be running a message, you open a whole new can of worms. Well, yes. But there's a big difference between a soldier whose primary task on the battlefield is running messages, and one that just does so occasionally when necessary. I am not as comfortable with German TO&E's as the Americans as I dont have any books that list a specific list of whos in the German Gren Plt HQ. According to BayonetStrength.com, this unit should have: Platoon HQ had a Commander, two runners, a stretcher bearer, and two supply wagon drivers So if we said that 'messengers/runners' were gone during a battle, that would mean that the Plt HQ should have one person CM:BN has it as one Commander, one radio operator and two soldiers. Chad Hm. Dunno. One possibility is that BFC's research led them to the conclusion that the supply wagon drivers would be usually be tasked with security duty for the Plt. HQ in actual combat, though that still doesn't get you to the four presented in CM... German TOEs are always tricky because the variance between what they were supposed to be on paper, and what actually happened in the field was often substantial, even for units with more or less a full headcount. Not that U.S. units didn't often very from official TOE as well, just not to the same extent as the Germans. At this point, I'm as curious as well... assuming, arguendo, that runners are intentionally absent from HQ in the game, this doesn't bother me as such. But any such abstraction should be applied according to some consistent rule across formations and nationalities. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 But any such abstraction should be applied according to some consistent rule across formations and nationalities. That sums up my curiosity perfectly. If US Rifle Plt HQ's 'runners/messengers' are omitted, why not consistently for others? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodyBucket Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 That's an interesting catch. I know the guide was supposed to stay at the rear of the platoon to watch for stragglers and distribute ammo. Here's a link to a 1943 bulletin on the duties of the platoon members and the employment of the platoon in the approach, at least for the USA. There's no mention of a radio operator. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 There's no mention of a radio operator. My guess is that at the platoon level they didn't have the big Walkie-Talkie radio (SCR-300-A), but the smaller Handie-Talkie (SCR-536). If the lieutenant didn't carry it, the platoon sergeant or one of the privates probably did. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Here's a link to a 1943 bulletin on the duties of the platoon members and the employment of the platoon in the approach, at least for the USA. Thanks for the link. Thats very interesting to read. Had read the FM, but had not seen that. I know BFC Steve's personal favorites are: 1. Questioning QB Points for elements, and 2. Questioning TO&E's. So Im not trying to rustle anyone feathers or say the game is broke by any means (great release again by the way BFC - very solid right out of the box!). Just curious why they are not in. Thanks Chad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodyBucket Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 .... Just curious why they are not in. Thanks Chad Well, if you want to find out, better send a runner. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Keeping TO&E conventions consistent is very, very difficult because it's often comparing apples to oranges. Generally speaking the following positions are not included in CM:BN TO&E: 1. Medics/stretcher bearers 2. Anybody tasked with supply duties 3. Anybody tasked with rear duties I tend to include SOME runners, but I do assume that at least one is running around doing something and therefore isn't available for combat. Looking at the US Rifle Platoon HQ we see: 1 x Leader (LT) 1 x Assistant Leader (TSGT) 1 x Radioman (PFC) One Messenger is presumed to be handling the Handi-Talkie so he's officially designated a Radioman. The other Messenger is running around, the "Platoon Guide" (SSGT) is presumed to be in the rear with the gear. I suppose the TSGT should be in the rear instead of the SSGT, but this is just a rank label issue and has no practical bearing in this situation. It does appear that I've been too generous with the German Grenadier Platoon HQ. It should be knocked down by one guy. In this case I presumed that since the Germans are largely defensive and undermanned that they would tend to have less of their guys in the rear compared to the Americans. Usually when in combat if there's a choice between short staffing the rear or the front the rear gets shorted. The Germans at this point in the war were putting an emphasis on reduced rear personnel, the Americans were still heavy in both. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Thanks for the reply Steve. Makes sense. I miss having all 5 men in there though 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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