Difference between pre-planned and TRP's

[hm_stanley]

I'm trying to figure out the logic behind pre-planned barrages vs. TRP's.

Why have TRP's when you can spot any point on the board in turn one with a pre-planned barrage? Some of those artillery options shoot there yum yum for 26-30 minutes? I mean you can just walk/ride an FO around the map and get a new spot to redirect fire for? It just seems out of context.

As for TRP's, I get their purpose.. makes total sense in the context of the game (airplane observer, or maps from the enemy, ground that was surveyed before, or etc..etc..).

Now, I'm not calling for an end to pre-planned barrages and their delectable destruction, and I'm not knocking it for those that like the boom boom, but it should COST something.. COST A LOT and should be treated just like TRP's. If you want to pre-plan an artillery barrage, you can, but it will cost a ton of pts.

Now in scenarios/campaigns (possibly it applies in H2H), this makes no difference, since those are scripted.

[Michael Emrys]

I'm trying to figure out the logic behind pre-planned barrages vs. TRP's.

Pre-planned are precisely that. They will fall on the place and at the time you have set before the clock starts. TRPs, on the other hand, allow some flexibility. You can call them in at any time during the game including never if that is your choice. Seems perfectly reasonable to have both in the game because that is how armies worked.

Michael

[hm_stanley]

yes, I have no problem with the function of pre-planned, just that "how did they all of a sudden know everything about the map" and then game starts and they know nothing.. Seems to be something amiss to this, I would make sense for example if you pre-planned an artillery barrage and then started the game, that the pre-planned artillery barrage would become an automatic TRP? I'm just not clear on how one see everything one turn and then the next turn see nothing.

Has to be some mechanics behind this, otherwise, it feels off.

[Michael Emrys]

Pre-plannned barrages were aimed at points on the map. Whether there were any enemy units there or not did not matter, they still went in at the planned time. What I am saying is that they don't require any special intelligence that suddenly ceases to be available once the game starts. Which is why the player has to plan them before he sees enemy units.

And BTW, in practice, targets were chosen based on intelligence gained via aerial reconnaissance, patrolling, sigint, interrogating prisoners, etc. All this information is usually not up to the minute, so the actual dispositions of the enemy may well have changed or have been decoys resulting in the fire mission falling on empty ground.

Michael

[hm_stanley]

ok, i see your logic.. I guess where I have a disconnect is if the barrage is called to a point (any point) on the map by an HQ unit, then it messes with the brain when you can't call in additional support for another point on the map that 1 minute ago you could see..

I get the mechanics, I'm not stupid.. but if one could call to any point, can't those dood call in and say.. "hey, remember that point you shot at in the beginning of this battle, shoot there again.." but they can't since they've forgotten where that point it, and they can't see it..

I guess it's the abstraction that makes me unsettled.

[Michael Emrys]

...but if one could call to any point, can't those dood call in and say.. "hey, remember that point you shot at in the beginning of this battle, shoot there again.." but they can't since they've forgotten where that point it, and they can't see it..

That's what TRPs are for. I guess a preplanned barrage could automatically generate a TRP. Problem is, artillery units engaging in preplanned barrages are allotted a specific amount amount of ammo, which they shoot off in the barrage. Afterwards, they may have little or none left and so cannot respond to calls for fire. Those are handled by other batteries that may well not have the sighting information on those map points.

Michael

[hm_stanley]

i'm sure you know you're not limited in terms of ammo on a pre-planned. I could shoot my whole load if I wanted to from all batteries..

I think the "you get a trp" from a pre-planned is at least a bridge to the "now you see it, now you don't" problem... that to me is a game abstraction that really doesn't make sense to me..

i mean in the real world, LOS is an abstraction.. you have a grid based artillery barrage system. I'm not entirely sure how this worked i WWII, but I would think it was similar to Vietnam, etc. You had contact, you planned a fire-mission on a grid/coordinates and then spotted and then.. boom..

I mean at any point on the map, I can see the horizon, and I can "guess" as to coordinates of that grid point. I can call in rounds and the resulting explosions are easy to see.. -- BTW, it makes me laugh that if you don't have a direct LOS to a place a spotting round falls, then the FFE mission will be fail.., HOW THE HELL DO YOU MISS AN EXPLOSION??", that is one pixel off from your LOS capability..?

Anyway.. I'm blabbering on now, the above is not the point.. I just think a reconciliation to the abstraction of pre-planned would help, since right now there is a disconnect to the "now you see it, now you don't"..

[Pak40]

I would make sense for example if you pre-planned an artillery barrage and then started the game, that the pre-planned artillery barrage would become an automatic TRP? I'm just not clear on how one see everything one turn and then the next turn see nothing.

Has to be some mechanics behind this, otherwise, it feels off.

This might be a reasonable request for BFC to implement, it makes sense to me. However, I can also see some abuse here by players. For instance, players could place a pre-planned barrage, hit the go button, then cancel it ASAP. Then they would have a "free" TRP for the rest of the game whenever they want to use it.

[gunnergoz]

The nice thing about the TRP is that you can place them on anticipated approach routes and terrain funnels that the enemy must negotiate. They may not be there on the first turn, maybe not until the 10th, but you will be ready when they arrive. Otherwise, if you only pre-plan a barrage on an anticipated point they will be at, your timing has to be perfect.

Also the TRP is terrific to help you plan your ambushes, since your units firing at/near enemy close to a TRP get an accuracy bonus. If you have an observer in sight of the TRP, your mortars and artillery can be very accurate indeed when they finally are called in.

[akd]

ok, i see your logic.. I guess where I have a disconnect is if the barrage is called to a point (any point) on the map by an HQ unit, then it messes with the brain when you can't call in additional support for another point on the map that 1 minute ago you could see..

I get the mechanics, I'm not stupid.. but if one could call to any point, can't those dood call in and say.. "hey, remember that point you shot at in the beginning of this battle, shoot there again.." but they can't since they've forgotten where that point it, and they can't see it..

I guess it's the abstraction that makes me unsettled.

I suppose you could argue the same for any fire mission, pre-planned or not, but it would require a significant overhaul of the TRP system (you shouldn't get a 105mm arty TRP after firing a 60mm mortar mission).

[gunnergoz]

In real life, you are not calling the same people when you order 60mm mortar fire vs 105mm howitzer support. Not all of them are on the same page of the battle book, so to speak. CMN abstracts the various radio nets, frequencies, and fire direction centers so much that we either forget this, or may not be aware of it at all.