Spoiler Alert....Bocage battle

[skelley]

Am I the only one who thinks the Americans get entirely too much Arty in this battle? 2 batteries of 105mm with 140 shells each. An 81mm and 4 60mm with 64 shells each. I laid down a opening barrage on the right side of the map with 2 105 batteries and dropped about 120 shells. Then I just mopped up through to the last phase line. In all I lost 15 guys and zero tanks. I think if you take away the 2 105s it would be far more balanced.

[LemoN]

I have similar experiences.

Put both 105mm arty batteries on the right side, two 60mm mortars on the right side too and two 60mm mortars and the 81mm mortars on the farm area.

[Ranger33]

I think taking away the 105s would make those woods a very tough nut to crack, what with multiple lines of defense between them and those houses in the back. The US tanks are pretty much useless for anything except initial overwatch, since the Germans have tons of tank hunter teams hiding in the bushes, and AT guns covering the road and the large open area on the other side of the map.

The big problem with the AI setup is that it puts 2/3 of their forces in one small area. I played it as the Germans, and knowing the initial barrage was coming, spread them out a lot more, minimizing casualties from the 105s. Then I pulled my frontline guys back as soon as they started taking fire, and sucked the US forces into my TRPs and tank hunter teams. I was able to take out 7 tanks and blunted their attack right at the edge of the woods. Of course this is all against the AI, with a real person those tanks could be put to much greater effect.

I had my very own tube guy, his partner and another nearby tank hunter team got wiped out, so he picked up 6 or 7 rockets and went to town, knocking out 3 Shermans on his own.

[LemoN]

Of course this is all against the AI, with a real person those tanks could be put to much greater effect.

That's exactly the problem.

A human uses the tanks to a way greater effect than the AI, laying down loads of suppressive fire and smoke even if they can't see any contact yet.

I think that the US side could do with both batteries being reduced by one gun each and ammo being reduced accordingly.

[Polo]

Well well well...

In fact I forgot about the 105mm during my bocage game (because of the "2 page" artillery menu!)

I tell you it was a slaughter. The Germans didn't forget about THEIR arty!

I only managed a draw rushing the second line, but I freaked out a bit near the end losing tanks after tanks after my infantry got slaughter 50%, panicked and became useless as a fighting force.

Pretty damn interesting fight if you ask me.

I just tried an opening barrage for the fun, only with the 105. The Germans lost 35% of their inf and the barrage went for 10 minutes! One other third of the Germans got lightly injured.

Polo

[skelley]

I think taking away the 105s would make those woods a very tough nut to crack, what with multiple lines of defense between them and those houses in the back. The US tanks are pretty much useless for anything except initial overwatch, since the Germans have tons of tank hunter teams hiding in the bushes, and AT guns covering the road and the large open area on the other side of the map.

If you take both platoons with the tanks and push them on the right side it would still be a cake walk without the 105s. 8 shermans pounding away in over watch is pretty effective. You still have a lot of 60mm and 81mm to pin the MLR and allow your infantry to advance.

You don't have to advance on the left side of the map at all to get the victory points. So you really only have to destroy half the enemy forces to win.

Maybe having one battery of 105s show up as a reinforcement, so it can't be used as an opening barrage, would be better. Reducing the amount of shells would also available would also be in order

[Polo]

I agree Skelley. As you just have to punch a hole to reach the lines, a concentrated tactic would be quite efficient.

Polo

[Ranger33]

You don't have to advance on the left side of the map at all to get the victory points. So you really only have to destroy half the enemy forces to win.

Maybe having one battery of 105s show up as a reinforcement, so it can't be used as an opening barrage, would be better. Reducing the amount of shells would also available would also be in order

I think that is a bit of a flaw in the map design, the Germans have to dedicate units to hold those buildings on the left for objective points, but the US can ignore that side of the map entirely and still achieve all of their objectives. I agree with the second part, having some heavy arty is one thing, having it fall for ten minutes across half the map is something else.

I think you underestimate how effective the tank hunter teams can be if positioned correctly. They are really hard to spot, even at close range. The TRPs can also be really effective if you can slow the US infantry for just a minute or two. A fighting withdrawal really works in the Germans favor here, just like in real life.

I just love that we are having these tactical discussions, and all we have to work with are a couple of demo scenarios! Good times ahead, me thinks. I will have to have another go at this as the US, since I thought it was only a medium difficulty scenario from the German perspective.

[LemoN]

I just did a really wide spread and pretty much annihilated all the German forces on the right side. Pushing up to phaseline red I encountered exactly 5 badly shaken soldiers.

[Ranger33]

Alright I just had a go as the Americans and I rolled right across the map with only a dozen casualties, half of those being from one mortar shell, and no tanks lost. Of course, I had a decent idea of where the enemy would be concentrated.

I think maybe just take away one of the 105's and give the Germans one more Pak 40 and this could be a much more balanced battle. Also, giving the American player a major objective besides just touching the end of the map, perhaps the building there at the crossroads, would make things more interesting. The map itself is amazingly well done.

[skelley]

I think that is a bit of a flaw in the map design, the Germans have to dedicate units to hold those buildings on the left for objective points, but the US can ignore that side of the map entirely and still achieve all of their objectives. I agree with the second part, having some heavy arty is one thing, having it fall for ten minutes across half the map is something else.

I think you underestimate how effective the tank hunter teams can be if positioned correctly. They are really hard to spot, even at close range. The TRPs can also be really effective if you can slow the US infantry for just a minute or two. A fighting withdrawal really works in the Germans favor here, just like in real life.

I just love that we are having these tactical discussions, and all we have to work with are a couple of demo scenarios! Good times ahead, me thinks. I will have to have another go at this as the US, since I thought it was only a medium difficulty scenario from the German perspective.

I agree that the map has flaws... starting with the phase lines being just lines across the map. If you had individual spots such as the buildings to the left and the buildings in the rear as victory locations then you may have to split your forces to take them. Maybe dropping the allotted time to accomplish these tasks would also help.

I also agree that the tank hunters and shrecks can be very effective if placed right. If you pre-plan barrage the heck out of them with 280 105mm shells they become combat ineffective real fast. Sure a human can have his infantry pulled back at the start and push them forward at the end of the barrage, but the attacker knows when the arty is lifting and can catch you trying to get into position.

I would be willing to play against Kesselring's ghost as long as I have that much firepower on such a small map.

[RockinHarry]

*SPOILERS AHEAD*

If playing germans, you´ll notice in the default setup, just half the foxholes and trenches are actually occupied. The majority of germans are placed in the orchards and bocage without any protection vs. the deadly treesbursts. If playing US and the computer takes this faulty setup, then no wonder germans can be wiped out by artillery alone quickly.

So I´d say, there´s not too much US artillery (didn´t they always have plenty of it?), there´s too little protection against it!

[skelley]

My point is about balance. Given whatever reason anybody can come up with, the forces are not balanced. 280 105mm shells vs 146 germans. Not to mention 110 81mm rounds and and 256 60mm. The map is about 500m wide and 600m deep. The only thing we're missing is about 7 or 8 battleships raining down 14 and 8 inch shells everywhere. Anybody can spot good defensive ground and unleash hell on it.

[Agua]

HEheee... Forgot about preturn barrage. Let me tell ya, its a meat grinder without it.

[skelley]

My first game I didn't use the pre plan arty and split my forces and I got a minor victory. My infantry were in sad shape so I just called a ceasefire before taking the last phase line.

Then I tried to defend against the AI. The initial arty just destroyed my AT assets and without them the Shermans just rolled over the rattled remains of my MLR. By turn 20 my whole right side collapsed and I couldn't do anything but watch. The AI plans were really well written for the attack.