Bug with infantry movement

[Pandur]

this is new in CMBN, i never saw this in CMSF and i dont think it is a feature.

i saw this several times in single scenarios i played so far, so it pretty common.

ok, its simple, 1 german squad = 2 fire teams. now when i give the squad a quick command(example) and the soldiers from the 2 fire teams become intermixed and then they come under fire and pin, is where you will see this.

best example is when they should move into cover behind a house, and some soldiers arive and some are still a few action spots away, the slower guys get shot at and go to the ground, now it seems the TAC aI wants to get every man to its action spot again and some soldiers that reached cover but belong to the fire team pinned a few action spots away will run out into the open again and move into the action spot that is under fire and go down with their buddies.

this is "mental" behavior, and it produces casualties that should not be.

anyone else seen this?

[ASL Veteran]

I 'think' I have seen what you are describing on rare occasions. Your description isn't very clear though so I'm not 100% certain of what you are describing. What I think is happening is that when a squad / fire team takes heavy fire and becomes pinned / rattled to the point where you lose control of your troops, any orders those truppen have gets cancelled. If half the squad is in one location and the other half of the squad is in another location then the game will have to select which action spot the order was cancelled in and that action spot will be where the squad seeks to end it's move. If it's a move order that was cancelled then the game will select the truppen who have moved the shortest distance and make that the squad's location.

My suggestion would be if you play RT then pause the game and split the squad into two teams if that happens. If you play we go then you can split the squad into teams at the next orders phase. If the squad is split into teams the team that has advanced the farthest won't return back to be with it's buddies since they are now considered a separate unit doing their own thing. You may even think about splitting a squad into teams before making what you think may be a 'risky' move to prevent that from happening in the first place. It will still happen to individuals within a team though to some extent so you can't avoid it entirely unless you alter your tactics a bit.

[Pandur]

i realize a video would be better to show this off, but i dont have fraps installed right now and cant be bothered to go through the whole process.

It will still happen to individuals within a team though to some extent so you can't avoid it entirely unless you alter your tactics a bit.

i only saw this with individuals returning to their "team" pined in the open, the other team did stay in cover. like when you interrupt a assault move in the middle and teams end up on different action spots some actions spots apart, but inthat case everyone stays where they are.

yes i play WEGO and i dont want to split teams if i dont have to, you loose C2 and so also morale and the results would be worse if i would split i think.

in CMSF everyone would stay put in this case, but in CMBN some individuals will run back out into the bullets and go prone next to their pinned buddies.

[ASL Veteran]

yes i play WEGO and i dont want to split teams if i dont have to, you loose C2 and so also morale and the results would be worse if i would split i think.

I'm not so sure about that. I don't think there is a morale hit for split teams anymore. There used to be one for the CMx1 series of games but I don't think there is one for CMBN. You can always recombine them easily enough when your truppen make it to where you want them to go. I don't think there is a C2 hit either - unless the positioning of the team puts them out of the command radius of the platoon leader. In fact, I always split my squads when playing as Panzergrenadiers - like 100% of the time. The MG 42 is the basis for the German squad's firepower and keeping a squad with two MG 42s combined doesn't make sense to me. I think of Panzergrenadier split squads as mini squads or 'MG teams' because each team has almost the same firepower as a full size normal German squad.

FYI, Company commanders now help with the C2 for individual squads who are not within the command radius of their platoon leader. The company commander will now command wayward squads directly thus preserving C2 for squads who have had their platoon leader killed or are out of their platoon leaders command radius. Yep - a 'new' feature.

[womble]

I'm starting to think that split squads are the only way to go in the hedgerows. You seem to get more suppression points and you get pinned a team at a time, rather than a squad at a time.

[Baneman]

...

FYI, Company commanders now help with the C2 for individual squads who are not within the command radius of their platoon leader. The company commander will now command wayward squads directly thus preserving C2 for squads who have had their platoon leader killed or are out of their platoon leaders command radius. Yep - a 'new' feature.

Excellent to hear !!

[Pandur]

I'm not so sure about that. I don't think there is a morale hit for split teams anymore.

there defenitely is, also if only bcause of lack of C2. fire team 1 with the leader possibly stays in contact but fireteam 2 with the assistant will be out of C2 if at any distance to the HQ. also a CO HQ does not replace the platoon HQ´s. they rout faster and pin more often without their platoon HQ, no matter if in contact with Co HQ or Bn HQ.

say did you play RED side in CMSF at any point? it is pretty much the same here in CMBN as it was for RED in CMSF so there is nothing new to discover.

you can get the effect of splitting squads when playing the road to berlin scenario, all german squads are split into teams and on top of that conscript and most are out of C2. they break in a matter of seconds when under fire. when you combine the teams and put them in C2 range with their platoon HQ they shake off supression effects faster and dont rout that easylie.

[ASL Veteran]

there defenitely is, also if only bcause of lack of C2. fire team 1 with the leader possibly stays in contact but fireteam 2 with the assistant will be out of C2 if at any distance to the HQ. also a CO HQ does not replace the platoon HQ´s. they rout faster and pin more often without their platoon HQ, no matter if in contact with Co HQ or Bn HQ.

say did you play RED side in CMSF at any point? it is pretty much the same here in CMBN as it was for RED in CMSF so there is nothing new to discover.

you can get the effect of splitting squads when playing the road to berlin scenario, all german squads are split into teams and on top of that conscript and most are out of C2. they break in a matter of seconds when under fire. when you combine the teams and put them in C2 range with their platoon HQ they shake off supression effects faster and dont rout that easylie.

My qualifications aren't really relevant here because what happens in the game is what happens in the game. However, since you are curious I always played Red in PBEM we go games when playing CMSF (and I have annihilated quite a few blue squads if I do say so myself). I've also been beta testing CMBN since January. I have to say that I haven't detected any morale hit from split teams in the CMx2 system, and I think Steve has confirmed that there is none on more than one occasion. C2 is more difficult to maintain for Red and for WW2 squads, but you just have to keep your troops closer together that's all. I honestly haven't had any issues with C2 whether split or not, and I've certainly not seen a case where a squad that was in C2 was suddenly not in C2 because the squad was split.

Why don't you post a screen shot of a squad that's in C2, then split them, then show us a screen that shows they are no longer both in C2. If there is a bug then let's see it so it can be addressed. Like I said, I've been playing with split Panzergrenadier squads in CMBN for five months now and I've never seen an issue with either C2 or morale, but that doesn't mean it wasn't overlooked. As long as my Panzergrenadier teams were within eyesight of the platoon leader though the little indicator showed that the C2 chain was present.

You said you identified a problem with team members from a good order team crawling back to the location of a pinned team in the same squad and said you identified a bug. I explained why that behavior was occurring in the game and I suggested a way to work around it. You said that there was a penalty for doing the work around. I assured you that there isn't one. You are now telling me that I'm incorrect and that there is in fact a penalty. One of us is wrong and I'm pretty confident that I'm not the one in error.

Of course, none of that has anything to do with the problem you 'identified' because that behavior remains unchanged in the game and is likely to continue unchanged. So I'm not going to debate with you about C2 and morale for split teams since that has no direct bearing on your original issue. If you want to continue to believe there is a penalty for splitting squads then by all means continue to believe so. If you don't like splitting squads into teams - then don't split them. I was just trying to be helpful and suggested a way to minimize the original 'issue' that has you all worked up. I doubt if I'll make much of an effort to assist you in the future though.

[Pandur]

ok i did check this out for myself, C2 seems to be fine and i think i know where the error came from on my side. CMSF army squads had one radio for fireteam A but none for fireteam B as far as i remember. that created the impression to me, but big error on my side, i stand corrected.

but i want to talk about the moral thing when out of C2 again. it is my firm belive that maybe "moral" wont change, maybe i should not have said morale, but suppression effects are more severe? in CMSF single fire teams felt more brittle to me, i did not play around with split quads in the demo so far.

Of course, none of that has anything to do with the problem you 'identified' because that behavior remains unchanged in the game and is likely to continue unchanged.

so this is to stay possibly? dont get me wrong, i appreciate that you try to present me with work arounds for a problem, and in fact the split sqad workaround seems to be better then i thought it would be from my CMSF expirience, but still the original problem is no nice one and i wonder why this has crept in, in the first place. CMSF did not have it so it must have been "added" in a way? i dont get that at all, maybe thats why i sounded worked up, in fact i am only semi worked up