Where do Brits get their firebase?

[womble]

I'm new to this CMSF lark, having gotten out the demo in preparation for CMBN. I've played the tutorial, "Going to Town" and "Out of the Wilderness". The Army force in "Going to Town" was comprehensible to me, with plenty of firepower on its vehicles that was reasonably well protected against light threats, with HMG squads to add to the suppression, and most of my casualties came from not being quite agile/agressive enough.

"Out of the Wilderness" was another kettle of fish entirely. Using FV432s for firebase units just got my gunner crewman shot, and there were no direct fire assets that didn't just scream "ATGM me, go on, I dare ya!" outside the squads, and they were getting quite badly hit by Syrian HMGs that I couldn't seem to spot, regardless of how many binos I had squinting down from on high.

I won the scenario, with quite heavy casualties, by using arty to get some suppression on and take down the wall of the compound I was supposed to take, then Fasting laden FV432s across the open ground to drop their troopers tight onto the objective.

Obviously, playing British forces (especially the light infantry in that scenario) requires a different approach. Artillery support seems essential to reach out and scratch those AT assets that you can scare out of hiding, but there don't seem to be the tools (HMG teams, Auto-GL, protected vehicle gunners) to set up the sort of firebase the US does.

Is it just the specific formations I've seen? Are US Light Infantry similarly doctrinally distinct (I can see that a Brit unit with Warriors might seem more like the Stryker Company, since its cannon can be operated without exposing the gunner to small arms fire)? Do other Brit formations have more support weapons? Did I misuse the British support elements (by not recognising them as what they are)?

[Frankster65]

Great post womble and welcome. I'm afraid I'm not the guy to answer your questions, others here more qualified. But, I will say that is one of the best things IMHO about CMSF is the fact that you have all these different TO&Es to play with. Each requiring different tactics and use. If you've got all the modules, and I do recommend you do, you will see a very large difference between U.S., British, Canadian, German etc. units.

[womble]

If you've got all the modules, and I do recommend you do...

I'm sure you're right. I shall probably fire up the Marines 'Going to Town' soon to see how their AAVs and huge squads are different to the Army Strykers (though the opposition looks a lot tougher, from the briefing, too). But I'm mostly waiting for BN, and once that hits will only have time for one military wargame, so the SF demo is probably as far as I'll go with that product line.

[TrailApe]

Do other Brit formations have more support weapons? Did I misuse the British support elements (by not recognising them as what they are)?

Womble, I don't think you have - the scenario is a bit of a bugger and takes careful handling/timing. I think it was on my 26th attempt that I got the right balance between when to skulk and when to charge.

I think, whilst the US light infantry have a bit more organic firepower - each platoon has a gun section with two gun groups in it - they would still have a problem with that scenario.

Lets face it, there's good killing zones available to the Red forces and you have to get across a lot of open ground covered by AT weapons.

The way I did it was to smoke off the left and right of the Police station and then pour everything over before the smoke cleared. The Engineers and their 'blast' command are invaluable and I then started on unlocking the defences one by one. Don't be too ambitious too soon and pay attention to the bad hats over on the right, past that well.

I would question the ammo load out on the Scimitars, not enough HE, especially in the context of the enemy forces.

I've got the BritForce module and whilst I'm looking forward to Normandy coming out, I'm more than happy with this game.

[womble]

Womble, I don't think you have - the scenario is a bit of a bugger and takes careful handling/timing. I think it was on my 26th attempt that I got the right balance between when to skulk and when to charge.

I must've gotten lucky. Failed the 'casualties' parameter (but I think I'd done that before I rushed the compound) but still got a good victory.

I think, whilst the US light infantry have a bit more organic firepower - each platoon has a gun section with two gun groups in it - they would still have a problem with that scenario.

Lets face it, there's good killing zones available to the Red forces and you have to get across a lot of open ground covered by AT weapons.

Could be. I was very worried about ATGMs set up at the back in the flat fields, but realised that the charging APCs would only be exposed to them for a few seconds as they crested the rise and dropped down the short, steep slope. An initial probe down the right had flushed out a couple of AT assets, including what turned out to be the only ATGM. Small arms fire neutralised the 105mm tube, and mortars saw to the HMG and the Sagger.

I suppose it wasn't so much the scenario specifically that piqued my wondering, but comparing it with the 'Going to Town' scenario. I think the Brits would possibly have had a much tougher time of that one than the Stryker troops did, lacking the protected vehicle gunners and quite so much ability to reach out and touch/slap down distant targets.

The way I did it was to smoke off the left and right of the Police station and then pour everything over before the smoke cleared. The Engineers and their 'blast' command are invaluable...

I regretted using the Engineers separately from my line platoon. Rookie error, that one, that I won't repeat

Don't be too ambitious too soon and pay attention to the bad hats over on the right, past that well.

They were my first contact. Cost me an FV432, 2 Scimitars (second to a bonehead maneuver) and 4 casualties. But as I mentioned, scared their AT assets out of hiding for mortars to finish off Oh yes, the ATGM had taken out a Jackal by then, fortunately parked and dismounted.

I would question the ammo load out on the Scimitars, not enough HE, especially in the context of the enemy forces.

Yeah. Definitely. I'd've thought that pretty much any situation the Scimitar needs more AP than HE, it'd want even more to not be there... Still, they have coaxials, and they suppress quite nicely

One thing I've read about on a number of occasions in CMSF is the importance of observation, to find out where your enemy are before committing. I had eyes on that police compound (spotters, snipers, HQs) for a good 10 minutes, and was taking fire from things that weren't really concealed (an HMG on a flat roof much lower than my position, for example), but couldn't localise any of them for suppressive attention. Anything to be done to help with that?

[flamingknives]

The other thing to consider is the time of day. IIRC, "Out of the Wilderness" takes place at dawn and the visibility is pretty bad, but gets better as time passes.

FV432s without protected weapons stations are not the norm - usually they tip up with gun shields or remote weapon stations.

[womble]

The other thing to consider is the time of day. IIRC, "Out of the Wilderness" takes place at dawn and the visibility is pretty bad, but gets better as time passes.

There is that, I suppose. Though I thought BlueFor units with NVG were pretty good at spotting warm bodies on a cold background (like you'd expect a rooftop to be at dawn in the desert). Guess those Syrian MGers had gotten pretty chilly waiting for me to show

FV432s without protected weapons stations are not the norm - usually they tip up with gun shields or remote weapon stations.

That's good to know. I'd seen in the manual that those variants were available.

I just went back to have a look at the scenario from RedFor's point of view, and realised I'd luckily splashed a number of units with 'speculative' preparatory fires, and had been either very lucky not to get spotted or very cagey in my positioning of my assets to have never given the second ATGM a single shot... I never knew it was there, and was only partially trying to avoid it; I put my third Scim into an overwatch position that was either well-enough concealed or just out of LoS to the thing for a large part of the mission; I just wanted to be able to spot and spray anything moving east out of the town...

[flamingknives]

There is that, I suppose. Though I thought BlueFor units with NVG were pretty good at spotting warm bodies on a cold background (like you'd expect a rooftop to be at dawn in the desert). Guess those Syrian MGers had gotten pretty chilly waiting for me to show

NVG are, for the time frame in question, image intensifying only, so they can only amplify available light (or make near-IR, like that used in television remotes, visible) but they will not show emitted heat from anything but the most energetic sources.

British Snipers ought to have thermal imagers, but I don't think that they do.

The Javelin CLUs are pretty good at spotting targets. If you have any (and I think that you do) then split them up and get them into spotting positions.

[womble]

NVG are, for the time frame in question, image intensifying only, so they can only amplify available light (or make near-IR, like that used in television remotes, visible) but they will not show emitted heat from anything but the most energetic sources.

That makes some sense.

British Snipers ought to have thermal imagers, but I don't think that they do.

They had the same NVG icon as all the other troops, in this scenario.

The Javelin CLUs are pretty good at spotting targets. If you have any (and I think that you do) then split them up and get them into spotting positions.

Yeah. There's a quartet of 'em, but I had them hunkered down out of LoS, in order that they didn't pick up any unwanted attention and were ready to pop up and slot the expected reinforcements... So they didn't get a look at the objective until the show was all but over.