FV107 Scimitar

[7thGalaxy]

Heya all

I asked this in another thread, but thought I'd bring it out into the open - how do you use yours Scimitars? About the only way I've been able to use them as Reconnaissance is to dismount behind a hill, and peek over with the crew - even hull down, they seem to just be RPG magnets, and besides that, not especially good at spotting! This combined with their matchwood armour, and their not especially useful main arnament, means that I feel like I'm underusing them.

How best to utilise them?

[gibsonm]

Yes indeed, and I gave you a suggestion there:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1218992#post1218992

I don't see much point in typing the same stuff in different places.

Merry Christmas.

[7thGalaxy]

Ahh, didn't see that before I posted this new thread Thanks - do you know of any official training manuals etc that are available?

[gibsonm]

Sure lots, but you need to be in the RAC (or at least UK MOD or ABCA to get them).

Not everyone publishes all their doctrine on the Internet like the US seems too.

[7thGalaxy]

Do you have any idea why the UK havn't upgraded them with thicker armour/reactive armour? Would that compremise their handily low weight? It seems to me that a little extra survivability would go a long way - especially as they are vunerable to all but small arms fire.

[gibsonm]

Yes.

1. Because its a recce vehicle and isn't meant to get into a scrap. Refer earlier comment about it "not being a tank".

2. As a recce vehicle it relies on a high power to weight ratio to help with its manoueverability. Start bolting stuff on and that power to weight ratio drops off. The bar armour is bad enough.

Recce soldiers know how to use them (I was lucky enough to spend a few months in Germany in the late 80's) and stay alive and that was against a high intensity Soviet conventional threat.

They aren't "vunerable to all but small arms fire" with the bar armour on.

That will defeat most RPG's etc. The idea though is to get out if that happens not stay and trade shots.

If you want a tank use Challenger.

If you want a scout vehicle use Scimitar

They are both great at what they are designed to do.

[Erik Springelkamp]

But of course the real long range scouting tasks will be outside the scope of a CMSF battle, so often you are stuck with this vehicle in a scenario, and you are nevertheless tempted to use them in combat.

[gibsonm]

Sure, in which case appropriate feedback on the scenario to the designer might be right response.

Two choices really:

!. Resist the temptation, or

2. Give into the temptation and find the enemy's location courtesy of burning Scimitars.

But of course the real long range scouting tasks will be outside the scope of a CMSF battle, ...

That's only because no one has made a scenario that deals with the "reconnaissance battle" (probably because its felt they aren't sexy enough).

Everyone one seems to want Infantry heavy, building clearing scenarios, but that's another topic.

[Sakai007]

LoL, I do like Infantry heavy scenarios, but I think I've been bitten by the Armor bug, same but different if you know what I mean. And of the manuals, can't be any worse the Geraldo giving our battle plan to invade Iraq on national television. I would beat that man if I had the chance, a good old fashion kind of beatin, out behind the shed style.

[Erik Springelkamp]

2. Give into the temptation and find the enemy's location courtesy of burning Scimitars.

Yes, I have done that with Dutch Fenneks, which share some of the features of Scimitars :-)

They are somewhat useful at spotting when they join a force of Leopards (and their machinegun is more powerful than that of the tanks), and if they are destroyed by an ATGM, you at least have the information with a cheap unit.

The first Dutch campaign scenario has some opportunity to scout, but for only 20 minutes, and at the end of the day I could have walked that distance easily.

[gibsonm]

The first Dutch campaign scenario has some opportunity to scout, but for only 20 minutes, and at the end of the day I could have walked that distance easily.

Sure, but would you be happy to walk the next few hundred Km?

[Erik Springelkamp]

I think in real life these scouts operate in twins, because if the first one is killed in one shot, the second can at least report the fact.

In CMSF you don't need this feature, because you, as gamer, will see where it is destroyed, so the double act mostly loses its primary function.

[7thGalaxy]

That's only because no one has made a scenario that deals with the "reconnaissance battle" (probably because its felt they aren't sexy enough).

Everyone one seems to want Infantry heavy, building clearing scenarios, but that's another topic.

I'd love to see a scenario like that - wasn't there a stryker scouting battle? Might be worth switching some forces on that and seeing if it'd work. I'm not too fussed about building clearing - gets a bit monotonous for me, but I'd like to feel the sweep of a manouver/recce battle a bit more often.

[Other Means]

A Scimitar poses a question to your opponent - do I fire at it with my precious AT assets or infantry (recon by bang), thereby compromising my position or do I let them go past to get a go at the real armour threats which means they will be able to spot my AT assets easier when I do open fire.

[Lethaface]

I use the Scimitar quite frequently as a fire support vehicle, it's just as good at taking ATGM's as the Warrior (bad). Only against RPG's or other IFV's it's worse, but then I only use IFV's against those threats when forced too.

[DaveDash]

The effective range of an RPG-7 is about 300m, RPG-29 is about 500m (and when I say effective, I mean, 'Likely to hit).

Scimitars can suppress enemy positions from well beyond those ranges. Use them like a LAV. Sit way the hell back and fire at suspected enemy positions.

One example, in the mission 'Cain and Able', is to use your scimitars to pop up over the ridge line, fire off a few rounds, then reverse back down. Keep doing this until you identify enemy HMG or ATGMs, then destroy them with mortars.

[gibsonm]

The effective range of an RPG-7 is about 300m, RPG-29 is about 500m (and when I say effective, I mean, 'Likely to hit).

Scimitars can suppress enemy positions from well beyond those ranges. Use them like a LAV. Sit way the hell back and fire at suspected enemy positions.

One example, in the mission 'Cain and Able', is to use your scimitars to pop up over the ridge line, fire off a few rounds, then reverse back down. Keep doing this until you identify enemy HMG or ATGMs, then destroy them with mortars.

Indeed, as per my post #2 above.

[gibsonm]

I think in real life these scouts operate in twins, because if the first one is killed in one shot, the second can at least report the fact.

In CMSF you don't need this feature, because you, as gamer, will see where it is destroyed, so the double act mostly loses its primary function.

Ah no not really (otherwise 50% of recce soldiers would be pretty pi**ed off).

Terms like mutual support, one foot on the ground, depth, etc. do come to mind though.

[gibsonm]

After a bit of informal feedback on a concept I'm currently working up:

When is an "operation" not an "operation".

I'm talking to a Scots mate of mine about borrowing one of his beautiful larger maps and doing a sequence of battles on it.

Regardless of which country (US/UK/Germany I guess) picked:

Battle 1: The recce battle

Recce elm are told that between the start line (say the original setup zone) and a far defendable location there are enemy recon elm and maybe a security position or two.

They do scouting (no house to house stuff).

Battle 2:

We assume that Battle 1 is over. Can rubble some buildings and even leave some wrecks from locations where the recce guys may have been (doesn't really matter as in Battle 1 Blue is the Recce guy, Battle 2 Blue is the COY Comd so we avoid the continuity problem but can include a bit of a brief from the recce guy).

Battle 2 might be the advance to contact (or in contact) to the defendable location, clearing the security positions that the recce guys identified (are picqueting) and maybe something or other that the recce guys didn't find.

Battle 3: More damage. This time its the assault (now you can do the MOUT stuff).

Battle 4: Red counter attack

The idea being the same piece of ground used for different phases (but having cumulative effects) and the Blue player fills a number of roles.

As the battles are self contained its not like a campaign (so you can pick and choose where you join, not have to start at the "start").

Think it would work?

If we did it with UK (or others) I'd be happy to do either a video AAR or maybe resurrect my comic skills.

Of course it sort of depends whats also coming down the Beta Test pipeline.

[DaveDash]

Sounds very interesting gibsonm. I enjoyed GeorgeMC's 'Forging Steel' campaign, which was along similar lines, but I like the idea of throwing in 'option missions' in there. And I do enjoy campaigns designed from perspective of correct military knowledge.