GMG Launcher Ammo Reload/Sharing

[c3k]

Gents,

Playing with the Brits, I'm using the Grenade Machine Gun, the L134A1. The two man crew will dismount from their Bulldog with the weapon and a mix of grenades, 48 in total. They leave behind 320 grenades. That would be a royal pain, breaking down the weapon and running the crew into the Bulldog every 3-4 minute to reload. Instead, I decided to use a spare squad to act as ammo carriers. I loaded them into the Bulldog, ACQUIRED all 320 grenades, ran them to the same tile as the grenade team, and then...nothing.

At this point, there is no way to even SEE if the squad has 320 grenades. Nor, frankly, am I sure they're the RIGHT 40mm grenades. (Although, a lot of posts have been made that British vehicles WILL and DO carry the correct ordnance for the weapon team they are transporting, so I ASSUME that the "40mm HEDP" listed is meant for the L134A1. Who knows. Shrug.) Anyway, the grenades disappear from ANY player interface. I placed the the ammo carriers on the same 1x1 rooftop as the launcher. No ammo sharing took place.

I tried it on open ground. I tried it dismounted. I tried it TARGETED. I tried, and I tried, and then I cried. Well, not really.

Several issues:

Unknown ammunition compatibility. A TOOLTIP would be nice. WHICH 40mm goes with WHICH weapon? Don't give me MOD specs, tell me in CMSF which "40mm HEDP" means the RIGHT "40mm HEDP"?

Disappearing munitions. If a unit is carrying Javelins, demo charges, RPG rockets, 5.56 ammo, hand grenades, I know it. If they can ACQUIRE something, it would be nice to SEE it on the interface.

Ammo sharing. I have seen some pretty slick sharing occur. Why won't the guys holding 320 rounds of ammo for the GMG share it with their buddies who have the GMG?

Has anyone else looked at this? Or am I missing something obvious?

Thanks,

Ken

[c3k]

Okay, I've tried again. At this point, I'm up to 5 tests. In no test has the ammo been shared.

To verify that I'm using the correct 40mm HEDP, I had the grenade launcher team ACQUIRE some after they'd burned off their original ammo. They showed "empty", then I ACQUIRED 20 rounds, and they showed "40mm HEDP" as 20. All good. Then they fired the 20. Back to empty.

I took a squad and loaded them with 620 rounds. They had 40mm HEDP coming out of their ears. They would not share.

No ammo share for automatic grenade launcher.

BF.C?

[Erwin]

Yes, yes, yes... I have exactly the same frustration. Lots of MOD specs but little usable (in the game) info.

It also took ages to find info (in these forums) as to what ammo snipers could reload and from which vehicles as well.

Re "regular" ammo, I loaded up HQ's with all sorts of ammo and put them in the same location as low-ammo inf and I didn't see any ammo improvement for the inf - bullets or missiles.

So, how does this feature work?

What is the point of having a game this complex and subtle and then no manual to explain these features and how to actually play the game?

[vincere]

I am generally frustrated with the British ammo situationand GMGs top it.

(and did anybody mention trcks- Brit module gave US Army truck... but huh no brit trucks. And there are a lot more scenarioes with lighter brit formations.)

Moan over.

[c3k]

In BF.C's defense, have you ever really looked at British trucks? Give me the GI issue any day. They did us a favor by not having British trucks.

The GMG thing: in the overall scheme of life, it is unimportant. Within CMSF it is still very minor (all things considered). However, if there is a logic flaw, then I'd prefer that BF.C have the opportunity to examine it and correct it prior to the release of CM:N. Imagine if your poor para's up near Arnhem can't share their gammon bombs? THAT would be a catastrophe!

The GMG "thing" also highlights a wee weakness in the UI. More on that later...

Ken

[vincere]

They are minor things unless you are playing brits and come to use the GMG

Or Brits in general and start wondering where is the g-dam ammo.

[Jonny(FGM)]

If I remember correctly the units that share ammo need to be from the same platoon

In it aint half hot mum i got the CO HQ to load up on 7.62mm and got him to stand next to my GPMG teams, the ammo wouldn't share. However when I got one MG to load up on 7.62mm he could share it with the other MG teams

[c3k]

If that's true, it would be VERY hard to schlep 320 40mm rounds out of the Bulldog, since all the platoon mates of the GMG are 2 man teams, either GPMG or GMG. They cannot carry more than several dozen at a time.

[Jonny(FGM)]

Did a quick test, turns out you can dismount the Bulldog crew, send them into another bulldog and aquire the 40mm, send them back into their own bulldog and they can share the ammo

Bit of a pain but it works

[akd]

There is nothing wrong with the ammo sharing amongst GMG teams, or at least not directly related to the stated problem (more later on this). The Fire Support Section Bulldogs are the same as the infantry section Bulldogs. The 40mm ammo aboard them is short/low-velocity HEDP for infantry section's rifle-mounted GLs. There is indeed no way to know this by the tooltip description alone, but the very simple solution is to give the ammo its real designation ("40x56mm" for the GMGs and "40x46mm" for the rifle GLs) and then load up the section HQ vehicle (at least) with acquirable 40x56mm like the light battalion fire support section HQ landrover, which has an additional 320 rounds of 40x56mm available.

edit: no this is wrong. The mech GMG teams can acquire and share ammo from the 320 rounds in their Bulldogs, but they can only acquire a max of 32 rounds. The infantry section Bulldogs carry 60 rounds 40x46mm HEDP. Also, the fire support HQ section can acquire 180 rounds which will also share with the teams. I see no problem except the lack of acquirable 40mm PPHE for mech fire support sections. Use the HQ section to supply your GMG teams.

However, I have noted something odd about ammo sharing in this particular case. The first line of ammo (PPHE) is shown as fully-shared when the teams are in close proximity (i.e. 3 teams = 3 x 16 = 48 40mm PPHE shared), but the second line (HEDP) does not share the full amount of ammo (i.e. shows 80 shared 40mm HEDP rounds when it should be 3 teams = 3 x 48 = 144 rounds). Now I didn't test this to see if that portion remains unsharable even as ammo is expended, so this may be a non-issue.

Did a quick test, turns out you can dismount the Bulldog crew, send them into another bulldog and aquire the 40mm, send them back into their own bulldog and they can share the ammo

Bit of a pain but it works

They can aquire and share ammo from their own Bulldogs, but only 32 rounds (before ammo is expended). Also note that once ammo is acquired, it is shared even if the team/HQ is still in its vehicle.

[Jonny(FGM)]

I loaded my gmg team up with 40mm from their bulldog and it showed in their ammo count, the actual number one not the bar one

[akd]

I loaded my gmg team up with 40mm from their bulldog and it showed in their ammo count, the actual number one not the bar one

Nevermind, I skipped over the "crew" part. Yeah, you do have to send crew to another vehicle to acquire ammo if you want, but you can do that during setup and just keep them in their vehicle and move the vehicle close if needed. Definitely a viable alternative to using the HQ. In fact, combining the team, crew and HQ acquired ammo, you have a potential for 956 shared rounds of HEDP for the section at mission start, with more that can be acquired after some ammo is expended.

[c3k]

Aye, they'll do that. What I was talking about was SHARING; when some happy bloke comes along trying to help them out and carries their ammo for them. When that happens, the ammo disappears. Forever. Poof. Gone. No more.

The GMG guys start with 16 rounds of PP?? (the airburst stuff) and and 48 of HEDP. 64 total count. I _think_ they can ACQUIRE perhaps 20 more; something like that. The Bulldog comes with 320!!! So, for argument's sake, let's say the GMG guys are limited to 80-ish at a time.

Here's the cycle...

ACQUIRE up to 80ish, run out of the Bulldog, set up the weapon, fire away, run out of ammo. Crap! There's just the two of us! We'll BOTH have to run for ammo! Break the weapon down, run back to the Bulldog, ACQUIRE up to 80ish, run out of the Bulldog, set up the weapon, fire away, run out of ammo. Crap! There's just the two of us! We'll BOTH have to run for ammo! Break the weapon down, run back to the Bulldog, ACQUIRE up to 80ish, run out of the Bulldog, set up the weapon, fire away, run out of ammo. Crap! There's just the two of us! We'll BOTH have to run for ammo! Break the weapon down, run back to the Bulldog, ACQUIRE up to 80ish, run out of the Bulldog, set up the weapon, fire away, run out of ammo. Crap! Now the Bulldog's out of ammo. But wait! The OTHER Bulldog has ammo!

If you're playing WeGo, I can guarantee that it will take one more turn than you thought for your GMG team to be fully entrained upon the Bulldog so they can do the ACQUIRE thing.

Instead, since ANYONE can ACQUIRE the ammo, how nice if a bunch of lads decide to grab the rounds instead? If sharing that resource isn't allowed, why can they ACQUIRE it? I know, maybe they're a bunch of lightfingered Finsters.

So, have your GMG guys shoot off all their ammo, and try to have anyone else get them some.

Ken

(Sorry for the whole cut and paste thing, but it was kind of fun!)

[akd]

Aye, they'll do that. What I was talking about was SHARING; when some happy bloke comes along trying to help them out and carries their ammo for them. When that happens, the ammo disappears. Forever. Poof. Gone. No more.

The GMG guys start with 16 rounds of PP?? (the airburst stuff) and and 48 of HEDP. 64 total count. I _think_ they can ACQUIRE perhaps 20 more; something like that. The Bulldog comes with 320!!! So, for argument's sake, let's say the GMG guys are limited to 80-ish at a time.

Here's the cycle...

ACQUIRE up to 80ish, run out of the Bulldog, set up the weapon, fire away, run out of ammo. Crap! There's just the two of us! We'll BOTH have to run for ammo! Break the weapon down, run back to the Bulldog, ACQUIRE up to 80ish, run out of the Bulldog, set up the weapon, fire away, run out of ammo. Crap! There's just the two of us! We'll BOTH have to run for ammo! Break the weapon down, run back to the Bulldog, ACQUIRE up to 80ish, run out of the Bulldog, set up the weapon, fire away, run out of ammo. Crap! There's just the two of us! We'll BOTH have to run for ammo! Break the weapon down, run back to the Bulldog, ACQUIRE up to 80ish, run out of the Bulldog, set up the weapon, fire away, run out of ammo. Crap! Now the Bulldog's out of ammo. But wait! The OTHER Bulldog has ammo!

If you're playing WeGo, I can guarantee that it will take one more turn than you thought for your GMG team to be fully entrained upon the Bulldog so they can do the ACQUIRE thing.

Instead, since ANYONE can ACQUIRE the ammo, how nice if a bunch of lads decide to grab the rounds instead? If sharing that resource isn't allowed, why can they ACQUIRE it? I know, maybe they're a bunch of lightfingered Finsters.

So, have your GMG guys shoot off all their ammo, and try to have anyone else get them some.

Ken

(Sorry for the whole cut and paste thing, but it was kind of fun!)

Please note my edit above. You can have 956 rounds of HEDP available at mission start with no need to remount the GMG teams.

But yeah, you cannot use another unit for ammo sharing. They only share within their unit.

[c3k]

Okay, time to throw some pictures around. I ran several tests in the current battle I'm playing. I've used different GMG teams and Bulldogs, etc. Here are some non-intuitive results.

First, the units involved in these pictures should be introduced. We have 6 Det, GMG up on a roof. With them are some assault pioneers. In a trench behind the house is 5 Det, GMG. Coming up from the rear is the GMG platoon HQ in a Bulldog. Here are their starting ammo loadouts:

5 Det: 16 PPHE, 32 HEDP

6 Det: 16 PPHE, 16 HEDP

Pioneer: 620 HEDP. Yep, six hundred and twenty. They plundered 2 Bulldogs.

HQ: 50 HEDP

Okay, we see what they all have and where they're situated...

Det 5...

Det 6...

Pioneer???

Next, we'll look at each unit in turn.

[c3k]

I ordered Det 5 to run away so their presence wouldn't distort the test. The test was meant to see if the HQ, coming up from the rear in a Bulldog with 50 rounds of 40mm HEDP acquired from the Bulldog's complement of 320 rounds, could share ammo with Det 6 up on the roof. Instead, let's just watch Det 5...

At start...

Count the rounds: I could zoom in more, but it's 16 PPHE and 32 HEDP

5 Seconds into turn...

5 Seconds into turn, but a just a hair more than the 5 seconds above....

See the difference? Somehow, the HEDP increased in two distinct steps. It went from 32 to 62, a 30 round jump, then it went from 62 to 82, a 20 round jump.

Something is wrong. Did the 620 rounds of HEDP from the rooftop pioneers somehow get transferred only AFTER Det 5 started running away? Huh?

Det 5 made it to a Bulldog in the background. While on board the Bulldog, with NO orders of any sort, their ammo screen went BACK to 16 PPHE and 32 HEDP. I am thoroughly confused.

Savegame available.

Let's watch Det 6 next.

[c3k]

Focusing on Det 6 during the same turn..

At start...

16 seconds...

23 seconds...

25 seconds...

A round count vs. time shows;

0- 16 PPHE, 16 HEDP

5- 16 PPHE, 16 HEDP (to show no interaction of ammo with Det 5)

23-46 HEDP All the PPHE has DISAPPEARED!! Where did the ammo come from? The ammo buddy pioneers?

25-66 HEDP More ammo showed up.

I SUSPECT the 620 rounds the pioneers have area somehow getting to Det 6, except NO OTHER TEST HAS SHOWN THIS AMMO TRANSFER. The Pioneers NEVER share ammo, at least the 40mm HEDP to the GMGers. I'll show proof of this later if needed.

[Erwin]

That is very interesting, but am still a bit confused. Did the Pioneers' 620 HEDP ever get exchanged/acquired?

You are saying that the GMG running away (5 detach) received extra ammo??

The HQ was able to give extra HEDP ammo away???

('Fraid I still don't understand what one needs to actually do to have one unit give ammo to another unit. Or, what the limitations are... Like all units have to be part of the same formation - is that platoon? In which case does that mean Company and above CO's can never give ammo to anyone?

[c3k]

More testing has proven that the presence of 620 rounds of 40mm HEDP in the hands of the pioneers does NOT get shared with Det 6, even after Det 6 has run empty. I tried it with the weapon DEPLOYED and TARGETED, despite being empty. I tried it DEPLOYED with no target. I tried it NOT DEPLOYED.

At no point does Det 6, once empty on the rooftop, gain ammo from their buddies with 620 rounds. 7 men in the pioneer section, 620 rounds; that's 88 rounds per man. Perhaps they don't think that's enough? Of course, that 620 figure was determined by boarding them on two Bulldogs. The first had 320 available; they acquired all of them and the Bulldog count went to zero. The 2nd Bulldog only had 300 available; after acquiring, the Bulldog count was zero. I ASSUME the game gave all 620 to the pioneers.

Does anyone else think ammo sharing (and ammo counting) is currently a bit wonky?

If not, please explain the fluctuating round counts.

Thanks,

Ken

Erwin: The HQ was placed there in preparation for testing that I didn't do because of the oddities that were occurring.

[Erwin]

Ok, so you are saying that Det 5 acquired ammo (mysteriously) since it was moving away. And the other detachment never acquired any additional ammo(?)

(I am just so confused about this - and a few other CMSF features as well...)

[c3k]

Yes, partially. As Det 5 ran away, it gained ammo. Later, it lost the gained ammo.

Det 6 gained HEDP ammo, but lost all its PPHE ammo. It gained 50 rounds (16 to 66) HEDP, and lost all 16 rounds of PPHE.

Later, with the pioneers and Det 6 on the roof, I emptied Det 6 by firing on the open ground. All 66 rounds were fired. They showed "empty". The pioneers, putatively with 620 rounds of 40mm HEDP, did not share ammo.

I then ran the pioneers off to the boondocks. I sent the HQ, the PLATOON HQ, up to the rooftop with 50 rounds of ammo (HEDP). This was to verify whether ammo sharing only occurs with units in the same platoon. (That was also why Det 5 was nearby...)

The HQ and the Det 6 never shared 40mm HEDP ammo. Det 6 stubbornly remains empty.

It could be that "empty" blocks ammo sharing? I don't know. What I do know is that a cool feature, sharing ammo, does not work with the GMG. I do not know what else may have the same lack of sharing characteristics. This was one that I noticed, so I started testing different situations.

Ken

[c3k]

More data for those watching...

When we last left, our intrepid Det 6 lads were on the rooftop, empty. Their Platoon HQ was with them, hoarding 50 rounds of 40mm HEDP acquired from the Bulldog's stash of 320 rounds. These Bulldogs have the 320 rounds of 40mm HEDP specifically for the platoon's GMG's. In this case, the HQ would not share. I gave them 5 minutes.

I ran the HQ off the roof, into the hinterland.

Remember Det 5? The had returned to a normal ammo count. Don't ask me how. They now were back to 16 PPHE and 32 HEDP. I ordered them to join Det 6 up on the rooftop.

Det 6, empty, had the GMG DEPLOYED. As Det 5 approached, at approximately 24 meters away from Det 6, the ammo got shared.

The ammo got shared.

There, that deserved its own line, didn't it? Anyway, at 24 meters between groups, or about 2 action spots away (?), Det 5 went to just 32 HEDP and the missing 16 PPHE went to Det 6. Why PPHE? Why do girls like baby deer? (Insert Gallic shrug.)

Within a platoon by units capable of using the weapon the ammo is meant for, sharing works. The platoon HQ does not share. At least with GMGs.

The fun part will be this: GMG's are part of weapons platoon which includes machine gunners. I will see if the GPMGers can be used to run ammo for the GMG. And vice versa.

Off to test land.

Oh, if any of you know how to get pioneers to give up 620 rounds of 40mm ammunition, please pass it on.

Ken

[akd]

Haven't had a chance to read this in detail yet, but the ammo shown in the counters is not the ammo distributed, but the ammo available. As I mentioned before, there is an oddity with HEDP sharing, but lets just look at PPHE. Each team on its own has 16 rounds PPHE. If you move the three teams immediately next to each other, each team will show 48 rounds PPHE. This does not mean each team has 48 rounds in its possession, but is the total of all three teams ammo available for sharing because of their proximity, i.e. 16 + 16 + 16 = 48. Move one team away and the 2 remaining teams will show 32 rounds PPHE and the separated team will drop back to 16. Now this is before any ammo is expended, which may add complications.

[Erwin]

Do we at least know (in the akd example) if ammo is expended by any or all of the teams, then one team goes to get ammo resupply:

1) How many rounds can the "resupply team" get from the vehicle?

2) When it rejoins the other 2 teams (or gets within 24 meters) how many rounds are shared with the other teams (all or only a %, or..?)?

Someone at BF, pleeze enlighten us...

[akd]

Okay, a bit more detailed commentary.

1. Det 6 never had 16 PPHE. They had only 16 HEDP from the start of the above test (obviously there had been ammo expenditures before the start of the test). The 16 PPHE was in the possession of Det 5, and when they were in proximity to Det 6, Det 6 showed this ammo as available. What is odd is that Det 6's HEDP ammo availability did not go up when Det 5 was in proximity, but I think I have an explanation for this. More below.

2. Regarding jumps in ammo availability as a unit moves: while the ammo is displayed for the unit, I believe the actual sharing ability is determined per soldier, so you may have one soldier in the moving team within ammo sharing range while the other is momentarily not. This, combined with what I think may be some adjustment delays associated with movement can cause fluctuating available ammo levels. I would not read much into the shared ammo totals unless all units are fully within ammo sharing range and stationary for a period of time.

Now to this particular situation, I would presume Det 5 moved into and then out of ammo sharing range of another part of the fire support section during its move, and this combined with the move out of sharing range with Det 6 caused the fluctuating totals. Once they were back at their Bulldog they were presumably out of ammo sharing range and showing only their own ammo load: 16 PPHE and 32 HEDP.

3. As Det 6 only had 16 HEDP in its possession, its available ammo increased to 66 HEDP when the Command section with 50 rounds then came within sharing distance.

4. Just ran a quick test and there is no problem with the Command section sharing ammo with an empty GMG team. Note that when a team is empty it will acquire ammo from ammo sharing, but only 32 rounds at a team. So, for example, I empty the ammo from a GMG Team. Ammo shows "empty." I then move the Command section with 50 rounds acquired ammo within ammo sharing range. GMG Team ammo shows as "50 HEDP" and they proceed to reload. After they reload, but before they commence firing again, I move the Command section back out of ammo sharing range and the GMG team ammo count drops to "32 HEDP". I expend this ammo and then move the Command section back in range. GMG team ammo count increases to 18 and they reload and start firing again. This is easily repeatable.

That leaves the question of why when Det 5 with 32 rounds HEDP and Det 6 with 16 rounds HEDP were in ammo sharing range did they not mutually display 48 rounds HEDP? I'm going to venture that some amount of HEDP (perhaps 32 rounds) is either considered loaded in the weapon or a reserve and thus not available for sharing. And I would assume that this only applies to (1.) The GMG teams and not the Command section (who has no need for the ammo), and (2.) HEDP ammo because PPHE is always expended first (a team would never be in actual possession of PPHE without also having HEDP).

Do we at least know (in the akd example) if ammo is expended by any or all of the teams, then one team goes to get ammo resupply:

1) How many rounds can the "resupply team" get from the vehicle?

If you mean a GMG team, only 32 rounds at a time.

2) When it rejoins the other 2 teams (or gets within 24 meters) how many rounds are shared with the other teams (all or only a %, or..?)?

Someone at BF, pleeze enlighten us...

Maybe zero percent if the 32 rounds is not available for sharing as per my notes above. This needs testing.

Use the Command section, the GPMG teams and/or section vehicle crews for resupply. Before expending or acquiring any other ammunition, the Command section can aquire 180 rounds HEDP, Bulldog crews 200 rounds and GPMG teams 101 rounds.

edit: Just tested and a GMG team will not share its final 32 rounds of HEDP. This is why the total HEDP shown available for sharing is not the actual total of all the HEDP carried by the teams. So sending an empty team to acquire ammo for the purposes of sharing would be pointless.