Italy

[rokassan]

Why was Italy rendered to a minor role and they've lost their nation specific graphics? Disappointing.

[david12345]

I agree. I was told that it was becuase the engine would not support another major power. I love the game, but for what I paid, the engine should have been tweaked.

[xwormwood]

As much as everyone would love to have EVERY country of the GC world as a true major power playable, as much (at least) i don't miss the Italian major power in the game.

The Italians are in the game.

It is expensive to bring them to power, else they stay rather unready for war.

So, what am i really missing here?

Only the joy to have as much major powers as possible.

In a world wide game the italians are of course important, but not as important as other majors powers, which are in the game.

But who knows, maybe a future release will bring them back.

Until this day i have absolutly on problem to play the italians as an axis minor power.

[david12345]

As much as everyone would love to have EVERY country of the GC world as a true major power playable, as much (at least) i don't miss the Italian major power in the game.

The Italians are in the game.

It is expensive to bring them to power, else they stay rather unready for war.

So, what am i really missing here?

Only the joy to have as much major powers as possible.

In a world wide game the italians are of course important, but not as important as other majors powers, which are in the game.

But who knows, maybe a future release will bring them back.

Until this day i have absolutly on problem to play the italians as an axis minor power.

The problem I have is that Italian units are German units now.

Germany pays for them. German HQ's support them. They get German tech advances (super u-boats and tigers in the Med.).

This is not historical. Same problem with france. England sucks up the money, French lose their level one tanks, etc.

[masterclaude]

Hello David12345

Here is masterclaude.

Right, Germany pays for her Minor units and collects theirs mpp which, in many cases, gives these Minor powers a pool of tech or economical means beyond their historical capacity ( I really doubt Germany would have transfer know- how or send to Rumania or Italy armies their most advanced equipment. In fact, it was quite the opposite, Rumania received captured french weapons -poor ones to say the least- or obsolete luftwaffe depot planes etc) Still, you can go in the editor and set these variables to your taste including upgrades or HQ attachment of minors. You can go even further by making them not cooperative but let me warn you, all these changes may have nasty unwanted effects so you'd better test it one by one.

Just one word about realism and historicity in SC2 games. Over the years, we have discussed those matters at length and, every now and then, I have to make this point clear again with long explanations I leave aside this time: This whole serie is NOT a WW2 simulation, not even close for tons of reasons, experts like Ludi, can go into with tons of examples from archives and statistics - see the thread about the battle of Atlantic- but no matter the settings and parameters used, SC2 designs is simply incompatible as it is now with history or straight economical and warfare mechanism. It's a game , a hell of a good strategic game though!

Making reference to WW2 should not be anything other than adding colors and flavors. Working the game to turn it into a real simulation could be part of another project somewhere on some Fury computer hard drives...who knows?

masterclaude

[SeaMonkey]

I have always said that minors should only be able to upgrade the level below their parent's current status.

[david12345]

Agreed Masterclaude. But the game, for no good reason in my opinion, took a step backwards in this regard since Italy and France were Majors, and it worked well.

Still a great game.

[xwormwood]

I have always said that minors should only be able to upgrade the level below their parent's current status.

If you look at the units than a lvl 3 minor tank looks like a lvl 2 major power tank. I think the minor lvl 3 tank only fight with mojor power lvl 2 strength, even though i'm not sure about it. But why else would Hubert use the graphics of the lvl 2 major power weapon system?

[Armuss]

Minor units have more expensive upgrade, and no full (that Germany) parameters (Tank only one attack etc.).

[SeaMonkey]

I don't pay attention to the icon images, the CTVs are the real foundation of combat prowess. Yes there are limits due to cost and strike structure but even given this it is unlikely for a parent country, the developer of the cutting edge technology, to share it with a minor, the second tier....yes...but the best equipment...it seems a bit unlikely....my opinion, especially for Axis. The same with the Western powers sharing with the USSR.....some....but not all.

[Nupremal]

I use a 50% system but 100% cost, so an upgrade to a Romanian unit adds .5 instead of 1

[david12345]

This caused a problem in my latest game. Italian level 3 subs fighters making the Med. real tough for the British. in 1943.

[masterclaude]

Nupremal, your idea is a good compromise as far as we talk of player-vs-player who can sort out which Minor units deserve upgrades at some point in specific situation. For the AI, that is another question and would lead to a waste of AI mpp since currently -( I wonder if M.Cater scripted any unit priorities or triggers for AI upgrades, sometimes there seems to be a sheme, sometimes not)- it invests heavily around without connection to the front needs. 1/2 tech point might not worth the expense in many cases unless there are very few AI units on the map - not exactly what we see in Global where the computer opponent gets almost twice more units than your side. I repelled an AI Barbarossa invasion in 41 facing no less than 8 visible tank armies and about 20 other land units and 10 Air armies. Then, the Axis figures showed, European Axis countries had more than 70 units and Japan something like 45. Well, I like it. Who said it should be a cake walk to comfort a poor ego ? Not realistic, I know...so what! A +2 Experience modifier isn't realistic either but it makes the game really challenging although frustrating sometimes.

I know David what your talking about in regard to Super units.. In that previous game of mine against the Axis, I could not even risk any Royal navy units at sea for more than a year despite good tech ( Nav Warf-2, ASW-2). Whenever I sent it the U-boat would find it and sink it in the blink of an eye. For you entertaiment, I can confess I had my entire Pacific USN reduced to a canoe after just one encounter with the Japanese carriers right after PH. Of course, one must expect it if he smacks the full powered AI.

That said, once you have found the tricks to beat the Über AI, I'm afraid you may not enjoy it as much and once you tried with flesh and bones merciless players even the strongest AI looks a bit pale.

By the way, my congratulations to Fury's team for the excellent AI scripts. People don't sneak under the hood and think a scenario works as long as you write a bunch of decent scripts. WRONG! It takes a clear vision if not a true foresight to match unit moves and momentum and prevent players loopholes so the AI does its job properly with play balance at stake turn after turn,etc.

Post scriptum: I'm still slowly adapting World at War scripts to a smaller version of your Mod, Nupremal. It's a wonder to discover all the possibilities of your mod but it's a torture to transfer such a big amount of data and caliber every thing one by one. Many changes required for units data, specialy move rate otherwise the offensive scripts can't reproduce on schedule what we see in the vanilla scenario.

[Chargin Smith]

Italy and France were majors in name only. I simply think we should eliminate the verbage "minor and major" and call them nations!